Atheist + Theist - Raising children?

gloriahoneybird

Are any of you in a atheist + theist relationship? My partner and myself are in the process of working out the best way to raise children before we take the plunge. I am a theist. I agree with my atheist partner that children should not be indoctrinated with either theist or atheist beliefs but that they should be educated sufficiently so that they can make an informed decision when old enough to understand.

That said because I am a theist I would still like to have children christened i.e naming ceremony. I do not believe something magical happens the child at a christening i.e. do not believe infant baptism makes the child a Christian. It would be more for my own peace of mind should anything bad (i.e. serious illness, death) ever happen the child before they are old enough to understand science, philosophy, world beliefs etc. Also because I am a theist I'm of the opinion that no-one has yet to prove a god does or does not exist therefore I'd just like to play safe and have a christening just in case one does exist! I know some of you will think I'm being completely irrational but I'd just like to hear opinions of atheists who might be in a similar relationship and how they dealt with this issue.

Scofflaw

Unfortunately, I'm not quite in the same position - atheist (me) married to anti-clerical agnostic (my wife), one daughter, currently unchristened.

Speaking for myself, I can't actually see how an atheist can object to christening. if we're right, then it's a meaningless dip in water and a bit of mumbling. If we're wrong then it's wrong to deprive the child of it. We're hardly talking circumcision here.

My own daughter is not baptised because my wife is deeply anti church, but will almost certainly be baptised in some faith or other because of the way the primary schooling system works here - 98% of primary schools have a religious orientation, and many do ask for a baptismal cert on enrollment, which is something you may want to take into account!

cordially,
Scofflaw

Zillah

gloriahoneybird wrote:

I agree with my atheist partner that children should not be indoctrinated with either theist or atheist beliefs but that they should be educated sufficiently so that they can make an informed decision when old enough to understand.

This caught my eye. At first it sounds nice and open minded, but I must point out that atheism requires no "indoctrination", its the default position. People don't just turn into Catholics one day for no reason. People might be inclined towards a desire for spirituality, but thats very different to any specific religion.

That said because I am a theist I would still like to have children christened i.e naming ceremony. I do not believe something magical happens the child at a christening i.e. do not believe infant baptism makes the child a Christian. It would be more for my own peace of mind should anything bad (i.e. serious illness, death) ever happen the child before they are old enough to understand science, philosophy, world beliefs etc.

This doesn't really make sense to me. You say nothing magical happens at Christening, but then go on to imply that the child's soul would be in jeopardy without a Christening. Does the ceremony have an effect or not? I think you should think about that sort of thing before you make any decisions.

Also because I am a theist I'm of the opinion that no-one has yet to prove a god does or does not exist therefore I'd just like to play safe and have a christening just in case one does exist!

If its because you're playing safe, then why only one religion? No one has proved or disproved Thor, Zeus or the other ten thousand Gods of the various religions.

I know some of you will think I'm being completely irrational but I'd just like to hear opinions of atheists who might be in a similar relationship and how they dealt with this issue.

Personally I'd like my (hypothetical) children to not be involved in any religious ceremonies, even the completely innocuous harmless ones like Christening, because in a few years communion will be cropping up and theres always confirmation and all that. I'd just say no from the start.

What struck me is that most of your reasons for wanting a Christening could be applied to any religious ceremony.

stevejazzx

Hi,

As a chirstian you are not suppose to christen a child 'just in case' there might be a god. This is very similar to the sin of presumption which takes care of people who, on thier death suddenly try to convert to all religons to hedge their bets so to speak. So christening a child just to cover the odds is essentially presumption and therefore a sin.

I'm an atheist married to an agnostic with a great 4 year old boy who is unchristened and will have all his life to decide upon his own religous belief without interference. I think that is a better gift for your child than some imposed wishy washy ceremony.

Schuhart

Ultimately, I think at the end of the day it’s what you can live with. On a practical point, Scofflaw is right to point out the practical issue that almost every primary school in the country is denominational, and so Baptism will be a factor in where your child can be enrolled. For what its worth, in the early Christian Church frequently adherents were not Baptised until late in life, and even sometimes on their deathbeds.

I’m atheist, herself is a sporadic Catholic. I’ve never had any particular gripe with the Church per se, other than seeing it as a human creation, so I don’t have any chemical objection to the children going through Communion and so forth. I do find the (rare) religious question that one of them might ask a bit problematic, just in trying to get into the mindset.

We did start with the intention of bringing them up as Catholics and, while this has become less important to both of us, I still feel bound by that commitment. That said, I think Catholicism is the new Protestantism. Church attendance in our locality is generally low, except for events like Easter and Christmas. It was quite obvious at the young one’s First Communion mass that most of the parents were sketchy about when exactly we’re supposed to stand, kneel, and so forth.

(Though wasn’t there always that feeling, even in more religious times, that if you got a dozen people in a Church to stand at the wrong moment that the whole congregation would follow like dominos falling.)

I've gone on for longer than I meant to. I think the main idea I’m trying to say is that its really just about the two of you communicating about what you are comfortable with, and you seem to be doing that already. If you feel the need to have a Christening, then why not? There's no harm in accepting it as a cultural practice, and you seem to have realistic appreciation of it too.

Asiaprod

Schuhart wrote:

Ultimately, I think at the end of the day it’s what you can live with. On a practical point, Scofflaw is right to point out the practical issue that almost every primary school in the country is denominational, and so Baptism will be a factor in where your child can be enrolled.

I've gone on for longer than I meant to. I think the main idea I’m trying to say is that its really just about the two of you communicating about what you are comfortable with, and you seem to be doing that already. If you feel the need to have a Christening, then why not? There's no harm in accepting it as a cultural practice, and you seem to have realistic appreciation of it too.

Sums it up from me too. My daughter is a Buddhist, she has friends her own age that are Christian, Shinto, Buddhist and variouse other sub denominations. It seems to have no negative impact on her or her friends that we are aware of. Then again, you dont need to be Baptised in Japan to enroll in school. If the faith can be kept seperated from the mumbo jumbo that is created around it I would see no problem as long as you both agree on where to draw the line. No matter which path you go down, children grow up and eventually make up their own minds. Just do the best you can do.

Scofflaw

I'm not actually sure how one goes about raising an atheist. Again, pace many of our posters, I don't think just leaving people alone will produce atheists. Religion is socially normal, my daughter will be in with 90%+ theists, so she'll need to actually reject it or run the risk of falling into it later.

The thing is, you can't produce an atheist, because the main characteristic is thinking for themselves.

cordially,
Scofflaw

robindch

> no-one has yet to prove a god does or does not exist therefore I'd just
> like to play safe and have a christening just in case one does exist!

You're assuming that a christian christening will do the biz god-wise. But you don't seem to have considered that god might actually be Baal, Saturn, Apollo, Thor or some other deity (or deities), and you could just be irritating him (her, it, them) and condemning your child to an eternity of fiery damnation by carrying out an honest ceremony dedicated to the wrong god!

More seriously, if I were you, I wouldn't impose any belief system on your child and instead, I'd leave them find their own way through their own spiritual domain. Or, if you're uncomfortable with leaving them to choose for themselves, then pick a few major religions, plus atheism, and make sure that they receive an equal amount of each, so that they can fairly be said to understand each of them before they make any especially final choice. And finally, to make sure that no religion is allowed to make emotional threats ("You'll burn in hell!!!") of one kind or another.

Hope this helps.

Zillah

Scofflaw wrote:

The thing is, you can't produce an atheist, because the main characteristic is thinking for themselves.

One can very much encourage a child to think for themselves. There is a strong corelation between education and atheism, that alone is a shove in the right direction.

Scofflaw

Zillah wrote:

One can very much encourage a child to think for themselves. There is a strong corelation between education and atheism, that alone is a shove in the right direction.

That of course is true. Still, I think you also need a certain emotional makeup.

cordially,
Scofflaw

stevejazzx

Scofflaw wrote:

I'm not actually sure how one goes about raising an atheist. Again, pace many of our posters, I don't think just leaving people alone will produce atheists. Religion is socially normal, my daughter will be in with 90%+ theists, so she'll need to actually reject it or run the risk of falling into it later.

The thing is, you can't produce an atheist, because the main characteristic is thinking for themselves.

cordially,
Scofflaw

But why would someone want to 'produce' an atheist? Unless the decision is reached independantly then the belief is essentially someone elses.
If left alone, encouraged and nutured to think for themselves then the reuslt is what it is, no?
I got the impression that you were saying that any other outcome would be disappointing by virtue of it being contrary to our own preconcieved ideals.

Scofflaw

stevejazzx wrote:

But why would someone want to 'produce' an atheist? Unless the decision is reached independantly then the belief is essentially someone elses.
If left alone, encouraged and nutured to think for themselves then the reuslt is what it is, no?
I got the impression that you were saying that any other outcome would be disappointing by virtue of it being contrary to our own preconcieved ideals.

Hmm. Yes, the decision has to be hers, and I can't influence it. However, I'd be disappointed if my daughter turned out theist - I don't think there's any point in my denying that. I would respect her choice, but I'd be disappointed that theism was her choice. If that's what you mean by 'contrary to our own preconceived ideals', then I admit it.

I want her to think for herself, but I want the result to be her freely choosing atheism...

cordially,
Scofflaw

stevejazzx

Scofflaw wrote:

Hmm. Yes, the decision has to be hers, and I can't influence it. However, I'd be disappointed if my daughter turned out theist - I don't think there's any point in my denying that. I would respect her choice, but I'd be disappointed that theism was her choice. If that's what you mean by 'contrary to our own preconceived ideals', then I admit it.

I want her to think for herself, but I want the result to be her freely choosing atheism...

cordially,
Scofflaw

Thats very honest of you. I imagine you have nothing to worry about.

JC 2K3

gloriahoneybird wrote:

It would be more for my own peace of mind should anything bad (i.e. serious illness, death) ever happen the child before they are old enough to understand science, philosophy, world beliefs etc.

Wouldn't they be a nominal Christian then?

unreggd

gloriahoneybird wrote:

Are any of you in a atheist + theist relationship? My partner and myself are in the process of working out the best way to raise children before we take the plunge. I am a theist. I agree with my atheist partner that children should not be indoctrinated with either theist or atheist beliefs but that they should be educated sufficiently so that they can make an informed decision when old enough to understand.

That said because I am a theist I would still like to have children christened i.e naming ceremony. I do not believe something magical happens the child at a christening i.e. do not believe infant baptism makes the child a Christian. It would be more for my own peace of mind should anything bad (i.e. serious illness, death) ever happen the child before they are old enough to understand science, philosophy, world beliefs etc. Also because I am a theist I'm of the opinion that no-one has yet to prove a god does or does not exist therefore I'd just like to play safe and have a christening just in case one does exist! I know some of you will think I'm being completely irrational but I'd just like to hear opinions of atheists who might be in a similar relationship and how they dealt with this issue.

Do you mind me asking, why are you a christian?

Have you just always been that way for as long as you can remember?

Or did you study all the different religions out there and come to the decision that Christianity is for you?

JC 2K3

unreggd wrote:

Do you mind me asking, why are you a christian?

Have you just always been that way for as long as you can remember?

Or did you study all the different religions out there and come to the decision that Christianity is for you?

Do we have to do this to every Christian that comes on this board?

unreggd

JC 2K3 wrote:

Do we have to do this to every Christian that comes on this board?

wha do you mean "have to"

There was no sarcasm or anything in that, it was an honest question, is that ok with you?

JC 2K3

I'm just saying, any time a Christian(or any religious person) posts here they tend to get questioned regarding their faith, which often ends up as a generic Atheism Vs religion debate. That question, while nothing essentially wrong with it, is off topic and unproductive.

unreggd

JC 2K3 wrote:

I'm just saying, any time a Christian(or any religious person) posts here they tend to get questioned regarding their faith, which often ends up as a generic Atheism Vs religion debate. That question, while nothing essentially wrong with it, is off topic and unproductive.

Im just tryin to understand the OP a little mor clearly

SonOfPerdition

JC 2K3 wrote:

I'm just saying, any time a Christian(or any religious person) posts here they tend to get questioned regarding their faith, which often ends up as a generic Atheism Vs religion debate. That question, while nothing essentially wrong with it, is off topic and unproductive.

Balderdash.

The origins/strength of the faith of gloriahoneybird is very relevant, especially when you read the opening post and see that she appears to have no real conviction in her beliefs.

gloriahoneybird wrote:

I do not believe something magical happens the child at a christening i.e. do not believe infant baptism makes the child a Christian

Are you sure you are a Christian?

coffee_cake

JC 2K3 wrote:

I'm just saying, any time a Christian(or any religious person) posts here they tend to get questioned regarding their faith, which often ends up as a generic Atheism Vs religion debate. That question, while nothing essentially wrong with it, is off topic and unproductive.

Hardly. If she wants advice on christening the child, we need to know why she really wants the child christened.

lostexpectation

JC 2K3 wrote:

I'm just saying, any time a Christian(or any religious person) posts here they tend to get questioned regarding their faith, which often ends up as a generic Atheism Vs religion debate. That question, while nothing essentially wrong with it, is off topic and unproductive.

its very relevant the issue that comes up again in Irish catholicism these days rather them the hard cathoic of the past is the auto-pilot social trends of going through the traditions and auto-piloting from one generation to the next.

A couple of people that hads kids have replied, now we can ask her does she really think her child might go to hell if it dies without being baptised?

Esmereldina

lostexpectation wrote:

A couple of people that hads kids have replied, now we can ask her does she really think her child might go to hell if it dies without being baptised?

Regarding the 'baptism in case something happens to the child' argument, the Church used to teach that unbaptised children go to limbo, but as far as I know limbro was abolished as a church teaching a few years ago, and I assume that unbaptised children can therefore go to heaven. So no need to fear a wrathful god in that case...

Zillah

I wonder what their line on that is.

We got it wrong before.
God changed his mind and remade the universe.
We've just decided things are different now.

If its either of the last two I wonder what happened all the millions of babies already in limbo...

lostexpectation

Esmereldina wrote:

Regarding the 'baptism in case something happens to the child' argument, the Church used to teach that unbaptised children go to limbo,

yeah so what the hell does she mean?