The idea of mentoring....

insafehands

Hey,

I've always found the idea of having a mentor intriguing, and clearly in most cases, would be massively beneficial. Anyone thought the same? I believe I'm a pretty good player, and feel that my game is more suited to medium-stakes poker... Now, I'm not saying that I would be successful there; that's the problem.

I generally play .10/.25 stakes, and some people just don't give a sh1t and call with middle pair where the hero clearly looks like he has a better hand.

Maybe I'm being cocky, and just am a sh1t player, but with all the poker I've been watching on TV, I copy pro's style and think I'll be an instant success...

With home games, I'm the best player, yet usually have to rebuy and then go out... This, it may seem, is a paradox... But it's true. The reason for it, I tell myself, is that the guys I play with (one or two in particular), just don't know when to fold, and will call with practically any pair.. They don't sense weakness, they just call... And it results in a crapshoot.

So would anyone be interested in working with me (and possibly others)? I don't mean devoting your life to helping me out, I mean just seeing where you think I'm at, what's sh1t and what's good, what needs to be changed etc.

Anyway, just something I've been thinking of and decided to put it in words and see what you think.

Reg's,
ish.

Hectorjelly

Ill coach you but unfortunately Ill need to charge €50 an hour

dvdfan

the mentoring idea would be a great idea, wish i had someone to help me out. Would geniunely pay to go to poker classes (beginner/intermediate/advanced) if the person running it was credible. One that dealt with everything from examples to ev calculations to pot odds, bluffing, how to play out different scenarios etc

2 things from reading your post, 1 i dont think youll learn a great deal from watching on tv, they centre too much on the showdown hands and elaborate bluffs which is only a small part of poker and can often give the impression that good play is getting all in and making lots of bluffs.

2 if your friends you play with are calling stations never bluff, wait until you hit a nice hand and double up. Play like a rock, and vice versa if your playing against a rock, raise him at the first sign of weakness and fold to any re-raise.

MrPillowTalk

Dont play like people on tv.

Realise that bluffing is neg ev in the games your playing.

Realise just cause you play higher doesnt mean you should bluff more.

Start thinking that maybe if they are calling with middle pair and its often good then the problem may be in your own play not theirs.

Theres no such thing as a free lunch, expect to pay for mentoring.

phantom_lord

Hectorjelly wrote:

Ill coach you but unfortunately Ill need to charge €50 an hour

what does coaching involve? do you read over hh or watch someone play or how does it work?

HalfBaked

Hectorjelly wrote:

Ill coach you but unfortunately Ill need to charge €50 an hour

Perhaps they can off you pro ev lessons in return?*


On a serious note it would be money well spent

TacT

Find yourself a successful online player, offer them a chunk of money to play with and accept that if they lose it then it's tough cookie to you, get a 75/25 or preferably 50/50 or alternative split in winnings so that you may sit down with them and watch while they play and talk you through what they are doing and why for a few weeks.

Hectorjelly

phantom_lord wrote:

what does coaching involve? do you read over hh or watch someone play or how does it work?

Its hard to sum it up in words. Basically first I try and get a feel for where the player is at, and what he needs to do. Ideally I would have a PT database or list of hands, but its not neccessary. Then we'll talk about the areas that need improvement, and finally Ill watch the guy play and we will talk about hands as they happen.

If anyone is interested I can put you in touch with someone Ive done some work with already.

Ollieboy

Hectorjelly wrote:

Ill coach you but unfortunately Ill need to charge €50 an hour

thats a very good price. Take up this offer and I'll guarantee you'll get this money back in a couple of hours, nearly the 1st hour I would guess.

Ste05

It really is a good offer, and much less than the equivalent on 2+2 charge.

peeko

Hectorjelly wrote:

Ill coach you but unfortunately Ill need to charge €50 an hour

Jesus, I hope none of my friends are reading this.

ArmaniJeanss

insafehands wrote:

I believe I'm a pretty good player, and feel that my game is more suited to medium-stakes poker.

insafehands wrote:

So far I've lost €500+ gambling (€225 was on drunken online blackjack)... Aside form that it's been all online and live poker.

You are actually not a good player, and your game is definitely not suited to medium stakes poker.

Play at a much lower level than you are playing (you are currently playing 10c/25c) and work your way up. Play $1 STTs to get an idea of different aspects of the game.

Dont spend €50+ an hour on lessons/mentoring, you don't need it as these low levels.
Just read everything that is read on hand histories / game selection / bankroll management etc on this and other forums like 2+2.

P.S when we were railing Rounders the other night, you were talking about how online poker is rigged, big hands run into bigger hands much more than in a real deck etc.
Get this idea out of your head, its this sort of nonsensical ready-made-excuse for losing that will stop you addressing where you are going wrong.

Good luck.

ianmc38

He's right! It's only Tribeca that's rigged.

Russh

I've also thought alot about mentoring but feel that it is something that will only arrive when someone gets to very near the top level. At that stage it is entirely possible to be coached by an old pro, or someone that has played or is playing at the highest level.

Of course there are different levels of coaching but i fell that you really need to prove yourself at a decent level before you are ready to be coached.

In the meantime I think that you cannot avoid putting in some serious study, reading books etc (hard work!!). You need to do this nearly as much as you are playing to bring your game up a level. It could be said that coaching at low level without at least reading (studying) 3-4 good books is looking for an easy solution.

There are some good live Tournaments around Ireland at various locations usually with sats before. Try to play as much of these as you can. It's amazing who you end up sitting at a table with. Sit back play the nuts and watch these pro's hoover up chips. (best lessons you'll ever get)

Anyway....just my humble opinion.. your post got me...don't post much...read everything... mentoring has been on my mind for a long time now....

DeVore

I think that when a player starts out they should get lessons, the value-proposition of lessons at that point makes it a smart move. Once they have learned the basics then they have to go to the school of hard knocks and internalise what they have logically learned (and more).

There may be an argument for finally getting one-on-one mentoring when you reach the top of your game (or what you think is the top). I'm kinda with Andy Black's thinking on it that at that point its much more about your own state of mind, you're confidence and your psychology then learning anything specific.

Finally, and I dont want to sound harsh, but if you can't sit down and review a session and see where you went wrong yourself, be honest about your game and be able to spot flaws in it then it may just be that you will never get further then where you are. (not that I'm any sort of Guru myself!) I do think that there is an attitude that anyone can become a top level player with sufficent application of learning and practise and I contend that that is just untrue. The top guys I've seen play are phenomenal and have something the vast majority of players simply dont have. Dont ask me what it is but 99% of players will always be at best "reasonable players".

DeV.

luckylucky

Ollieboy wrote:

thats a very good price. Take up this offer and I'll guarantee you'll get this money back in a couple of hours, nearly the 1st hour I would guess.

I'll second this...
If you are serious about getting into poker - getting mentored is not a bad idea at all, this is a very good price too imo, HJ knows what he is talking about without a doubt in my mind.

Yeah sure you can take the route that most of us took, reading a few books, trial and error in our play and browsing forums such as this. But if you can afford it, getting mentored from someone who knows what they are talking about should bring you up to speed a whole lot faster if you take what they say on board.

When I was big into Tennis in my late teens and early twenties, I though nah I don't need coaching I'll just pick it up naturally, when I finally decided I really wanted to get a whole lot better and got proper coachin I had to unlearn a whole lot of bad habits and became worse before I got better.

Getting coached from someone like HJ will ensure you have no genuine excuse for any bad habits you develop.

luckylucky

ianmc38 wrote:

He's right! It's only Tribeca that's rigged.

lol, some of the cards dealt do beggar belief alright, time and time again.

Hectorjelly

DeVore wrote:

I think that when a player starts out they should get lessons, the value-proposition of lessons at that point makes it a smart move. Once they have learned the basics then they have to go to the school of hard knocks and internalise what they have logically learned (and more).

There may be an argument for finally getting one-on-one mentoring when you reach the top of your game (or what you think is the top). I'm kinda with Andy Black's thinking on it that at that point its much more about your own state of mind, you're confidence and your psychology then learning anything specific.



DeV.

I think it would be a waste of money for a beginner to get a coach, anyone who puts the time in will pick up the basics fine, and then progress until they hit a wall which they never progress from. What a coach should do is make a ok/good player aware of some of the advanced concepts and turn him into a much more sophisticated player.

I wouldnt agree with Andy at all, whilst all of those things are important, nearly all the players ive played with at every level have technical flaws in their game which would directly cut their winrate.

BigCityBanker

Hectorjelly wrote:

nearly all the players ive played with at every level have technical flaws in their game which would directly cut their winrate.

Obv dont answer this is you dont want but what do you see as the most common technical flaw?

Killme00

Hectorjelly wrote:

Ill coach you but unfortunately Ill need to charge €50 an hour

HJ..what would i get for €50 an hour

Hectorjelly

BigCityBanker wrote:

Obv dont answer this is you dont want but what do you see as the most common technical flaw?

live tournament poker; cold calling substantial %'s of people stack preflop
internet cash games; bet sizing

willietherock

Anyone use one of the training sites that are out there?

ianmc38

Apparently cardrunners are good, but I dont think you'd get even close to the knowledge/skill you'd attain from working with somebody like HJ.

Ste05

Yeah, I'm never been sure about the hype surrounding cardrunners it's always talked about on 2+2 in good terms, but it seems to be all the people involved in the site who are pimping it up in clever and sly ways, (e.g. mentioning it in their Well's and generally in passing) has anyone here actually subscribed and can recommend it. I watched the free preview on their site, and it seemed fairly basic, but I presume that's just the preview one.

Now back to the HJ pimping....





Gimme a H.......... H

BigCityBanker

Hectorjelly wrote:

live tournament poker; cold calling substantial %'s of people stack preflop
internet cash games; bet sizing

Cheers, I suffer from the latter but I am working on it. (Im not suffering as bad as it may seem from my AhJh post earlier in the week btw - there were other circumstances at play in that hand).

AmarilloFats

I'll coach you --- €100 and hour:eek:

The first €50 we'll work on undoing the psychological damage that HJ has caused.

The second €50 I'll let you play on My NLPPM - neuro linguistcically poker programming machine....
It rewards you for good play punishes you for bad. You can be as results orientated as you like....
Much more powerful than theoretical understanding.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

valor

I agree with HJ that coaching for an absolute beginner would be nowhere near as beneficial as coaching for a middle of the road player

I've done coaching, both as a student and as a coach and it definitely improves your game providing your coach knows what he is doing! Its certainly something worth doing for someone who has hit a wall at small-medium stakes

califano

I don't know. I don't like it.
What do we need coaching for?
Let everybody worry about their own business.

smurph

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Coaching with Darragh

I was about to say "Who the F*ck is Darragh LMAO:D . I didn't know HJ real name, this boards site is scary.

insafehands

ArmaniJeanss wrote:

P.S when we were railing Rounders the other night, you were talking about how online poker is rigged, big hands run into bigger hands much more than in a real deck etc.
Get this idea out of your head, its this sort of nonsensical ready-made-excuse for losing that will stop you addressing where you are going wrong.

No offense man, but you must've been wasted or just not paying attention to think I was being serious. I think one of the things I said was when I went all-in (and this was made-up) with 22 and he called and had AA... Of course this must mean online poker is rigged!!! (I was being sarcastic).

ArmaniJeanss

insafehands wrote:

No offense man, but you must've been wasted or just not paying attention to think I was being serious. I think one of the things I said was when I went all-in (and this was made-up) with 22 and he called and had AA... Of course this must mean online poker is rigged!!! (I was being sarcastic).

No offence taken, ever. I thought I saw you say things like 'theres coincidence and then theres online poker' and 'big hand meets big hand, always the same'.
You were joking, fair enough.

Theres a handful of people in my job still cling to the 'its rigged' excuse to explain why they are losing players*, so its a bugbear of mine.

AJs.

*They open-minraise with KK from the SB, then push for 4xPot on a 667 flop, then tell me its rigged because 'T6 always beat KK'. Its makes doves cry.

insafehands

ArmaniJeanss wrote:

No offence taken, ever. I thought I saw you say things like 'theres coincidence and then theres online poker' and 'big hand meets big hand, always the same'.
You were joking, fair enough.

Theres a handful of people in my job still cling to the 'its rigged' excuse to explain why they are losing players*, so its a bugbear of mine.

AJs.

*They open-minraise with KK from the SB, then push for 4xPot on a 667 flop, then tell me its rigged because 'T6 always beat KK'. Its makes doves cry.

Yeah that's exactly what I said. Myself and shoutman I think it was, were just having a bit of craic.

Although..........

ocallagh

Hectorjelly wrote:

Ill coach you but unfortunately Ill need to charge €50 an hour

you are undervaluing yourself. You could make a lot of money coaching people... but coaching 50/1 1/2 is pointless. take it seriously. Charge 500/hr and target the 20/40 level.

DeVore

HJ, I didnt mean individual coaching (1 on 1) for a beginner, I meant group-learning to fast track them past the "I think K4 gives you options of the top AND the bottom of the deck" period.

I accept your point about technical mistakes in the big players games and I guess at that level correcting them would easily pay for the tutorship.
But part of me still says that any player worth their salt needs to get in the ring and get the **** beaten out of them a few times so to speak. Theory is all well and good but a "feel" for it is a major factor.

I guess any mid level player can improve and step up a notch etc. I'm interested in what you think of what I said about having the "right stuff" in a sense:
I do think that there is an attitude that anyone can become a top level player with sufficent application of learning and practise and I contend that that is just untrue. The top guys I've seen play are phenomenal and have something the vast majority of players simply dont have. Dont ask me what it is but 99% of players will always be at best "reasonable players".

Do you think some people, regardless of how much they studied or were taught, simply cannot be top level players? Or can everyone get there with enough slog? (Genuine question btw!)

DeV.

robinlacey

i have been getting coaching for the last few months from MDMA off twoplustwo,and i have found it enormously helpful.

before that i used to watch cardrunners videos,which i would recommend for getting a good solid mid stakes cash game going.

also,although i've never been formally coached by hectorjelly,talking to him about poker over the years has helped my game a lot,and i would be certain that getting coaching from him would help almost any player here.

coaching is good on two levels,first of all the technical aspect of improving your play and understanding of the game,and secondly i have found the routine of having 4 hours every week where i am getting coached and therefore am entirely focused on playing properly and not making mistakes has been great for helping my discipline and concentration.

ROCKMAN

The top guys I've seen play are phenomenal and have something the vast majority of players simply dont have. Dont ask me what it is but 99% of players will always be at best "reasonable players".

DeV.[/QUOTE]

Class statement,

The rest of us mere mortals need as much help as possible, whether its table time, books or paid lessons etc,

DeVore

I do hope you realise I consider myself in the 99% and not the 1% lol!

<addendum> What I mean is that I've seen some people who have talent to burn at this game (and some of them burn it too) outperform people who have studied every book in the world.

If you dont have that spark of brilliance you may well be a long term winning player, a professional grinder even and do quite well from poker. But there is a point where all of that can only take you so far it seems to me. I dont think everyone who plays could play the very best/biggest games no matter how much they were tutored, how much they studied or practised. I think a huge number of people delude themselves on that point and are then bitterly dissappointed with themselves for no good reason.

DeV.

ROCKMAN

DeVore wrote:

I do hope you realise I consider myself in the 99% and not the 1% lol!

<addendum> What I mean is that I've seen some people who have talent to burn at this game (and some of them burn it too) outperform people who have studied every book in the world.

DeV.

I agree players with talent ( be natural or hard earned talent /table experience ) will outplay/outperform book smarts every time over the long haul.

ps i am also in that 1% but unfortunately i am looking up at the other 98%

RoadSweeper

just seen this, throw it in as its slightly relevant! http://pokerpanthers.org/co.uk/tutoring.htm

MrPillowTalk

robinlacey wrote:

i have been getting coaching for the last few months from MDMA off twoplustwo,and i have found it enormously helpful.

before that i used to watch cardrunners videos,which i would recommend for getting a good solid mid stakes cash game going.

also,although i've never been formally coached by hectorjelly,talking to him about poker over the years has helped my game a lot,and i would be certain that getting coaching from him would help almost any player here.

coaching is good on two levels,first of all the technical aspect of improving your play and understanding of the game,and secondly i have found the routine of having 4 hours every week where i am getting coached and therefore am entirely focused on playing properly and not making mistakes has been great for helping my discipline and concentration.

What do you do with MDMA during the coaching, and how much do you pay him? if you dont mind me asking of course, this is actually quite an interesting thread.

robinlacey

its $225/hour,for four hours a week,i play two two hour sessions during which he watches me play and we talk about what is happening on skype,and also i can send him hand histories/general questions whenever i like and he will get back to me with fairly detailed responses.

Ste05

Robin,

Is it actually useful or do you just get generic responses that you could work out yourself by reviewing your sessions (albeit difficult to do so objectively). e.g. don't raise OOP and the likes. Or does he give good advice about getting to know the flow of the session, etc. etc. and the likes....

Is it more the fact that you're really concentrating on your game for 2-4 hours a week and then going through it in detail with an independant eye that helps you to iron out the kinks??

I signed up at cardrunners after your recommendation and so far it all seems very basic and generic: position, semi-bluffing, continuation bets etc. etc. Although I've only watched about 3 or 4 videos so far, so I could be very premature in my opinion, but at the moment I'm slightly unimpressed. Maybe I expected too much, I assume after watching more of the videos I'll get more out of it. Any recommendations for particularly good videos or articles?? A PM would be appreciated if we're not allowed link or mention particular articles, I've only just signed up so I don't know the ins and outs just yet. Cheers.