Inside Waco - More perils of religion..

Dr Pepper

Hi,
Just a quick note to say that there is a documentary on C4 tonight at 9pm on the Waco 'siege' of 1993 (involving the 'Branch Davidian' religious sect).

Looks interesting!

stevejazzx

Anyone catch this?
The documentary may of been a little biased but it certainly seems that the FBI messed it up. Also the documentary gave no background on Coresh himself and I was left wondering how he had managed to organisedthat little community with guns, military rations, gas masks etc. Was he rich, did he use the funding of his members?
The FBI brought tanks in? WTF? Very strange. Seige lasted 7 weeks!How?
Eventually they destroyed the entire compund and killed them all, or at least (in the view of the documentary) caused them to take thier own lives.
As for Coresh he convinced these otherwise regular people that the prophecy of the seven seals was being fulfilled. Madness. Absolute madness even the surviving memebers still believe he was god/jesus as the second coming, even though the prophecy he told them was happening never happened!

MoominPapa

More like the perils of the ATF/FBI:mad: Koresh was a nut job, the ATF/FBI incomptant buffoons responsible for the deaths of 74 men, women (include two pregnant), children and babies. Heres some advice for fereral agencies: before sending in the tanks:eek: for you final assault on a bunch of holed up gun toting apocolyptic death wishers who talk about fire a lot, ie fires of hell, purifying fire , armageddon etc, how about having a couple of fire engines handy?

Just because you're atheist doesn't mean the bible thumping crazy is automatically the real bad guy

delta_bravo

MoominPapa wrote:

More like the perils of the ATF/FBI:mad: Koresh was a nut job, the ATF/FBI incomptant buffoons responsible for the deaths of 74 men, women (include two pregnant), children and babies. Heres some advice for fereral agencies: before sending in the tanks:eek: for you final assault on a bunch of holed up gun toting apocolyptic death wishers who talk about fire a lot, ie fires of hell, purifying fire , armageddon etc, how about having a couple of fire engines handy?

Just because you're atheist doesn't mean the bible thumping crazy is automatically the real bad guy

You cant say it was totally their fault. If Koresh had ordered all members to leave the house after his message was broadcast on radio there would have been no problem. Without doubt the FBI/ATF had some blame. Both parties were at fault for it. What annoyed was the way no fire services were called in to attempt to stop the fire

humanji

But Koresh was the real bad guy. The situation may of been handled badly, but the guy was a nut.

MoominPapa

humanji wrote:

But Koresh was the real bad guy. The situation may of been handled badly, but the guy was a nut.

The suituation was handled with criminal incompetance and glory hunting on the part of the ATF and the FBI brought tanks in to smash their way into the buildings which had children in them

When I said the real bad guy I didn't mean Koresh was not a bad guy, but just because he was a bad guy did not make him the baddest guy in the suituation

playing with guns and spouting end times nonsense and being a cult leader = bad
raiding buildings containing children with assault rifles when you know the gun toting nutters inside know you are coming = glory hunting = really bad
being in a federal agency and using tanks against your own fellow citizens and children = really really bad

delta_bravo

MoominPapa wrote:

The suituation was handled with criminal incompetance and glory hunting on the part of the ATF and the FBI brought tanks in to smash their way into the buildings which had children in them

When I said the real bad guy I didn't mean Koresh was not a bad guy, but just because he was a bad guy did not make him the baddest guy in the suituation

playing with guns and spouting end times nonsense and being a cult leader = bad
raiding buildings containing children with assault rifles when you know the gun toting nutters inside know you are coming = glory hunting = really bad
being in a federal agency and using tanks against your own fellow citizens and children = really really bad

Glory hunting?! What glory was there? Four federal agents had been killed trying to arrest Koresh and to seize illegal explosives and illegal weapons, including hand grenades, grenade launchers, and machine guns. The FBI/ATF couldn't just walk away from it. They had to act. He was given countless times to save his "flock" but he did not. He reneged on his promises. The FBI couldnt just back away and leave them. There had been rumours of abuse : physical and sexual against women and children commited by Koresh. He had to be taken down. He knew he was going to get killed. Perhaps it was him that was glory hunting in allowing it to develop to the situation it became?

robindch

Didn't see the documentary on Koresh, but it does remind me of a weird group in Philadelphia that the city police bombed in 1985. Unfortunately, the bomb hit a fuel tank and the resulting fire killed eleven people and burnt down an entire city block. More on this bizarre, and largely-forgotten, incident here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOVE
http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/MOVE-Phihladelphia-BombNYT14may85.htm
http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/11590721.htm

MoominPapa

delta_bravo wrote:

Glory hunting?! What glory was there? Four federal agents had been killed trying to arrest Koresh and to seize illegal explosives and illegal weapons, including hand grenades, grenade launchers, and machine guns. The FBI/ATF couldn't just walk away from it. They had to act. He was given countless times to save his "flock" but he did not. He reneged on his promises. The FBI couldnt just back away and leave them. There had been rumours of abuse : physical and sexual against women and children commited by Koresh. He had to be taken down. He knew he was going to get killed. Perhaps it was him that was glory hunting in allowing it to develop to the situation it became?

You miss read me, the ATF knew Koresh knew they were coming, they should have called off the raid which at this stage could only end in bloodshed, they didn't, only then four AFT men get killed, thats glory hunting. Why didn't they just wait for Koresh to be outside the compound and then arrest him? The rumours of sexual abuse were unfounded according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_Siege
and anyway had nothing to do with the raid.
I have no doubt Koresh was glory hunting and wasn't concerned about putting the lives of men, women and children in peril but he was mad whats the ATF/FBIs excuse?

Dr Pepper

I think the tanks were introduced as the only means of approaching the building without the risk of getting your head blown off. (Don't forget 4 of the ATF had already been shot dead!).

The fire engines were probably available but the drivers/fire-fighters could not be dispatched because of the aforementioned gun-wielding fools (AFAIK They can't be put into a situation where there is a good chance of being killed).

At the time, it seems to have been assumed that the 'hostages' (who were claimed to have been allowed do whatever they wanted) would leave the building as the fire blazed.
That said, the authorities did make a few blunders (The helicopters arriving 'late', continuing with the initial raid in the first place, etc).

I don't have much sympathy for the adults who chose to get themselves into that position* and heavily arm themselves against the authorities, but the fact that so many children were forced into that fate is the real tragedy for me.

*considering the huge arsenal of weapons being stockpiled and the bizarre/sickening habits of Koresh (taking all the men's wives for himself, etc)

MoominPapa

Dr Pepper wrote:

I think the tanks were introduced as the only means of approaching the building without the risk of getting your head blown off. (Don't forget 4 of the ATF had already been shot dead!).

And the gun toting nuts were supposed to understand this how? because the FBI said so? and also when the tanks were being used to smash holes in the building how did they know no one was behind the wall they smashed into or under the floors that, inevitably collapsed?

Dr Pepper wrote:

The fire engines were probably available but the drivers/fire-fighters could not be dispatched because of the aforementioned gun-wielding fools (AFAIK They can't be put into a situation where there is a good chance of being killed).

Armoured water cannon trucks, the kind used in riot suituations springs to mind as an obviuos solution to this and they had plenty of time to get there hands on a couple

Dr Pepper wrote:

At the time, it seems to have been assumed that the 'hostages' (who were claimed to have been allowed do whatever they wanted) would leave the building as the fire blazed.

For starters they weren't hostages, they were willing followers as far as anyone knows. Secondly it was assumed they would leave the building due to tear gas, I don't believe anyone deliberatly set the building on fire, not even the ATF, but since it was know there was a basement this in all likelihood is where the women and children would have sought shelter and the risk of them being overwhelmed by tear gas alone must have been high and the risk of searing hot tear gas canasters setting fire to a plywood building is equally as high

Dr Pepper wrote:

That said, the authorities did make a few blunders (The helicopters arriving 'late', continuing with the initial raid in the first place, etc).

I would and have put it much stronger than this

Dr Pepper wrote:

I don't have much sympathy for the adults who chose to get themselves into that position* and heavily arm themselves against the authorities, but the fact that so many children were forced into that fate is the real tragedy for me.

Forcing children into this sort of fate is what nutcases do when confronted by gun toting authorties.. This is well know and is the crucks of my point

Dr Pepper wrote:

*considering the huge arsenal of weapons being stockpiled

exactly why the raid should have been handled completly differently/ not at all

Dr Pepper wrote:

and the bizarre/sickening habits of Koresh (taking all the men's wives for himself, etc)

Once again nothing to do with the raid