Architect Cost

squire1

Just something I wanted to find out after reading a couple of threads here on the costs of Architecths.

Why is it that some Architechts charge a percentage of buildcosts as their fee rather than say a fixed fee per sqFt? What extra befefit does the client get by paying a percentage? There is no incentive for the Architecht to keep costs down.

What happens in a situation where small changes are made regarding specification during the build? For example, I decide to use granite cills rather than standard concrete ones, the extra cost is €4000, the Architecht is entitled to €400 (assuming 10% fee).

I'm not trying to start a raging debate here, I just want to know if I am missing a major point as I could never understand why anyone would agree a fee based on a percentage.

Edit: Sorry about the typo in the title

muffler

A good question and I await the replies

Branners

years ago in in imperial measurement times it was the normal to charge
percentage costs, it seemed to be the fair way to charge clients, now most architects these days will agree the fee structure before the job starts

Big jobs(100 houses etc.) = percentile fee

Small extension = percentile fee/ hourly fee/ basic cost

It all depends on the architect, but most that i know would only charge for the hours worked, on such a small job like an extension

fdevine

Most architects will agreed a fixed fee prior to starting any project, excluding out of pocket expenses and things like planning fees & newspaper notices.

Its generally based on the RIAI (Royal Institute of Architects in Ireland) Scale of Fees.

Not all architects are members of the Institute, so can have their own fee arrangements.

Then you have the 'nixer' brigage, which can save you alot. ;-)

From my point of view, there can be as much if not more work involved in an extension than in a new build house......so size versus hours worked is not a good guide and charging for hours worked on a 20 sq.m. extension may not be in the clients favour....if that makes sense.

muffler

squire1 wrote:

Edit: Sorry about the typo in the title

Sorted - thats a pint you owe me

squire1

muffler wrote:

Sorted - thats a pint you owe me

I'll put it in the poast.

I'll get my coat.........

So it actually seems that charging a percentage fee for relatively small jobs is not common practice among the profession. I suppose that is fair enough.

I do know however from anecdotal evidence that many self builders are very wary of approaching architects due to a fear of high prices/value for money concerns. Why pay €10 or €12K to an architect when you can get a technician to draw up a set of plans for €2K? It is a pity, when you see some of the "designs" that are blotting our rural landscapes. Maybe it is something that the RIAI should address. i.e. the public preception of the value of a good architect. Good old Duncan is doing a good job but he seems to be ploughing a lone furrow.

Gumbo

because if the architect is a registered member of RIAI then he/she has to charge their fees based on the RIAI schedule of fees, same as engineers who are members of the IEI or ACEI.

muffler

kceire wrote:

because if the architect is a registered member of RIAI then he/she has to charge their fees based on the RIAI schedule of fees, same as engineers who are members of the IEI or ACEI.

The RIAI do not have a scale of fees.

Sonnenblumen

squire1 wrote:

Why pay €10 or €12K to an architect when you can get a technician to draw up a set of plans for €2K? It is a pity, when you see some of the "designs" that are blotting our rural landscapes. Maybe it is something that the RIAI should address. i.e. the public preception of the value of a good architect. Good old Duncan is doing a good job but he seems to be ploughing a lone furrow.

And your point is ? What's your point? Pointless !

Mixing Apples with oranges and must we have a token guide/leader for all? cannot tell the difference with design, I mean why deal with a technician when you could get Gerry the Blocklayer to build and also save on set of nixer drawings?

We do not need a TV personality or a Professional Institute to point out the shortcomings of design illiterate small minded money saving building public. As you say it's everywhere and it's our "collective fault" although I would plead not guilty.

Sharpen the pencils and embrace design as an investment in function but also culture (and these days there is a huge scarcity of the latter).

smashey

Sonnenblumen wrote:

And your point is ? What's your point? Pointless !

What would your point be? Attack the post, not the poster. Any more posts like this and you will be taking a little break from this forum.

Idleater

squire1 wrote:

Why is it that some Architechts charge a percentage of buildcosts as their fee rather than say a fixed fee per sqFt? What extra befefit does the client get by paying a percentage? There is no incentive for the Architecht to keep costs down.

I asked my architect this. He explained it quite well.

Generally, clients go "over" budget, because they find bits and pieces to add in at the last minute and make changes during builds. Obviously there are costs involved in making these changes.

If it was done on sq m, then the overall cost would generally not change, because the changes are not really external, but internal.

When you say that there is no incentive for architects to keep the costs down, you have to realise that it is up to the clients to get what they want. If they don't know what they want, then, like with anything (cars for example), it is up to the supplier of the service to be as honest as they want.

Personally, I am very happy with my architect, and the services that he is providing. I am keeping a strong eye on all the costs, and I know that any decision I make has implications on my budget, and also in the fees that I must pay to get what I want.

Hope that helps,

L.

squire1

Sonnenblumen wrote:

And your point is ? What's your point? Pointless !

Thanks Sunflower, for your input. It wasn't a point, it was a question. Jumped in again with both feet didn't you? Without reading or understanding the previous posts.

Nereid, good points but there would be plenty of changes made during a house build that would have no extra design costs associated with them. Would your Architecht still take his commission on the extra build cost of these changes?

tba

Its very simple, Having been given a budget of 50,000 for a one of house I would be looking at a 5000 fee.

I sourced stone, timber, brick, did planning permissions, tender and construction drawings. I dealt with the contractor when he screwed up and wanted to charge the client extra money for his mistake.

Then the client decides that they want to change something, fair enough, but it was not part of the inital agreement. Walking away is not really an option as we get a good amount of our fee on completion.

If these changes happen once and it has no negative implication for the client from the design team then they will continue to do it eating in to our payment. So we assign % costs to cover our ass and also to remind the client that decisions have to be made and adherred to.

Flat fees are usally reserved for one off jobs, ie planning drawings, signing off, on occasion consultation as they have a narrow field.

Builderwoman!

Agree with Squire to some degree on Architects. We had an RIAI guy look at our job and do drawings and they were a disgrace. He did not listen to our brief and when we questioned his "design" he said that he knew how best to design a house! Our comment to that was that we had to live in it and we know the way we like to use/live in a house and we did give him a brief/wish list none of which he incorporated. He also knew nothing of any alternative heating systems, solar panels, eco friendly design, argon filled windows etc. He was going to end up with a huge fat fee at the end of the day being a percentage of our rather large build. He was not going to source one thing for us and also told us that our wishes were not possible with our budget (he was taking so much of it!!!) and that self build was not at all possible! So we parted company with him.

We got a technician to do our drawings and planning application which we got first time (RIAI guy told us that we would not get it first time with him...so much for confidence in his work)...The guy who did the pp and drawings qualified as an architect mid way through our job actually....and he was fab. Really listened to us and gave great suggestions....for a fraction of the cost. Then we had an engineer sign off on the job. And yes Mr RIAI architect was wrong we did do self build and pretty much on budget!

tba

I wouldn't let that tarnish all RIAI members.

Builderwoman!

No I wouldn't like to tarnish all RIAI members but from my experience I know the student of architecture that did our plans (he qualified while doing our job) was much more "in touch" and down to earth. You would want to have seen what the other guy was sending me off to the council for a pre planning meeting with. It was disgraceful. He was snooty and did not listen to our brief, he told us he knew best how to design a house, he had no respect for the planning department either which wasn't going to help our pp either. I could go on!! No disrespect but some RIAI members seem to be too concerned with being RIAI members and less concerned with offering a good client service!

squire1

tba wrote:

Then the client decides that they want to change something, fair enough, but it was not part of the inital agreement. Walking away is not really an option as we get a good amount of our fee on completion.

If these changes happen once and it has no negative implication for the client from the design team then they will continue to do it eating in to our payment. So we assign % costs to cover our ass and also to remind the client that decisions have to be made and adherred to.

Sorry tba, I dont really get what you are saying here. Why would you consider walking away? How do changes a client make eat into your payment? Isn't the client the boss? and as such, isn't he/she perfectly entitled to make any changes he/she wants.

Just an example again, client decides to go with PVC windows. Later in the build, say at foundation level, he comes to you and says he has decided on hardwood windows instead. The extra cost is €5000. There is no extra work involved besides ringing the supplier and informing them of the change. Does the architect expect to be paid €500 (10%) for this and if so why?

I'm honestly not having a dig at Architects here, I'm just curious.

Idleater

squire1 wrote:

Just an example again, client decides to go with PVC windows. Later in the build, say at foundation level, he comes to you and says he has decided on hardwood windows instead. The extra cost is €5000. There is no extra work involved besides ringing the supplier and informing them of the change. Does the architect expect to be paid €500 (10%) for this and if so why?

This is a very good question, and in truth I don't know what would happen in such a case.

From what I believe, our contract (RIAI architect) is based on "construction cost" and covers everything from concept, design, planning application, build plans, tendering, overseeing the build to sign off at the end.

"Extras" such as kitchen, solar panel, Heat pump, bathroom sink etc are not included in the cost that the % applies to. Windows, and (for example) changing from pvc to wood, I have no idea about.

L.

BAZM8

squire1 wrote:

Just an example again, client decides to go with PVC windows. Later in the build, say at foundation level, he comes to you and says he has decided on hardwood windows instead. The extra cost is €5000. There is no extra work involved besides ringing the supplier and informing them of the change. Does the architect expect to be paid €500 (10%) for this and if so why?.

The reason for the % fee structure is to protect the architect from clients who start off with an designed house and a fee agreement and change everything during the build from the total internal layout of walls to window layouts and sizes a number of times. This can be twice as much work for the architect for the same original price effectively losing us money. you won't get a builder rearranging the walls once built for free.

Every internal change usually requires a meeting with the buider and client to discuss and then probably a revised drawing and agreement of the extra costs involved and then an architects instruction to carry out the change and confirm the cost. (While it's a client's prerogative to change his/her mind this work is extra should we do it for free?)

The reason we would get €500 for changing the windows would be that we would have tendered the window contract seperately to window contractors to then appint them as a nominated sub contractor to the main contracotor. Changing to PVC from timber would require a re-tender to a number of contractors to ensure we were getting the best price. (i know this was just picked as an e.g. but it explains the issues)

Believe me i've had clients who keep changing their minds constantly. i don't mind this as they have to live in the House in the end but this is our job, not a hobby. We can't constantly discuss a single project or make constant changes without being paid for it.

The % based fee is just one mehcanisim of getting this money without getting into an arguement with the client everytime we do additional work. It should be noted though we only get paid on the basis of additional work that adds to the cost of the building. If the PVC windows come in cheaper than the timber and you save €5,000 our fee goes down €500.... so it works both ways.

squire1

Thanks BAZM8, for the reply. That has cleared some issues for me.

BAZM8 wrote:

The reason we would get €500 for changing the windows would be that we would have tendered the window contract seperately to window contractors to then appint them as a nominated sub contractor to the main contracotor. Changing to PVC from timber would require a re-tender to a number of contractors to ensure we were getting the best price. (i know this was just picked as an e.g. but it explains the issues)

I was not aware that an Architect actually sourced/tendered materials but merely specified them, so that explains a lot.

Thanks.

muffler

squire1 wrote:

I was not aware that an Architect actually sourced/tendered materials but merely specified them

In our neck of the woods that would be the exception rather than the rule

Baabs

Hi all,
I recently got a job to do as built drawings on contracts basis with an engineer who is into renovation and reconstruction, but since am new to the game in Ireland I don't know what or how to charge him for work done.