Warning Signs

luckylucky

Over the past few weeks my results have been a bit of a rollercoaster, massive upswings and massive downswings too. During one of the downswings, after losing another all-in, in a futile hot tempered gesture I threw a pen across the room. My wife was in the room at the time and said something like. 'You're losing your cool a lot more lately when you lose a hand, what's going on?'

Tbh I wasn't exactly in the humour for her comment, but when I calmed down after I thought she's right. For the previous several months if I got a bad beat or made an error, I didn't like it but I still more or less took it in my stride, part of poker after all. Now I was getting very irate when I lost a big pot, and on the flip side when I won a massive pot, I got over excited about it.

I sat back and thought this isn't the way poker should be, certainly not if you're a full-time cash game player, everyting I've read of any value on the subject has suggested to try to be unattached - some good stuff about it all in Larry W. Phillips Zen and the Art of Poker. So I decided I needed to put an end to my overly emotional attachment to the result of hands.

My initial intention was to take a clean break from the game for at least a few days, and there's definitely merit in doing that but found myself getting bored yesterday afternoon and so played again. My current downswing continued but at least this time I was playing games that were within my comfort level, and my play was a lot better as I was just concentrating on playing well rather than being overly concerned whether I lost the pot or not, and the bad day that I had was a result of being unlucky rather than some of the fcuk ups i had made over the previous few days.

Anyway what I'm getting at is I think we can play for weeks, months on end playing mostly correct but it's so easy to let things slide without even realising it, but there's warning signs!

For me the warning sign was this emotional attachment to hands that wasn't there before, the solution was simple, just to drop back to levels where a loss of a buy-in would no longer hurt so much, hopefully I have stopped the rollercoaster before it got too late!

Anyway just thought I'd post my thoughts on this here, anybody else got any warning signs that we should look out for in our overall attitude to poker?

peeko

After moving up levels and having a couple of swings I also noticed that I was getting to emotional about it all. Cursing bad beats, heart going 100 miles an hour when I won a big pot. I personally did not have the ability to just keep at it (not yet). I had to take a break from poker. It was only after that that I could see the bigger picture again. It's very hard to see this when you are stuck, but about a week away from it brought it all into perspective again.

It's good that you can recognise this happening to you. And it's good that you've logically come to this conclusion. It is after all something you are doing for a living, so it's muchos important to get fixed.

I'd like to think that someday I'll be able to see the bigger picture everytime, and totally eliminate tilt from my game, but this is a bit of a pipe dream I'm sure. As you're toying with emotion so much.

For me I had to 1) take a break and 2) tighten up.

Hope your downswing ends soon.

TacT

Moving up levels when your bankroll takes a hit. Paying people off in spots where you didn't do so before. Not being humble. Playing when you know you shouldn't -- tired/drunk etc. etc. Bluffing too much instead of picking the right players and spots to do so when you know they can't or won't call.

Raising too often preflop. Playing too many pots OOP with marginal holdings. Getting overly confident after a nice run of cards or when your bankroll gets nice and juicy. Overplaying your draws. Making it personal and/or getting too emotionally involved and thus losing your cool as you said.

Playing on autopilot instead of learning and attempting to develop your game and hone your skills. Playing too often, too long and not taking enough breaks. Playing with money you can't afford to lose. Doing other things while you are playing such as browsing the web, checking email or reading boards instead of concentrating on the cards and action.

Time for a break and to come back fresh by the sounds of it?

May I be so nosey as to enquire what stakes you are playing and with what sort of bankroll please lucky?

peeko

TacT wrote:

Playing too many pots OOP with marginal holdings.

Do you think it would be hard to make a bit of software that you could setup to have an alarm bell sound when you do something like raise with KJs UTG or some other similar holding you shouldn't really be playing!?

This could be good to incorporate. Sometimes you raise knowing it's a bad move. maybe with some alarm going off, you would be aware you're doing it way too often.

TacT

lol, probably but it's better if you train yourself to simply not do so!

luckylucky

Cheers for the excellent replies, a good solution might be to get a bunch of us on msn, and report to each other once a week say, and describing what game levels we are playing, how many hours a week we are playing etc etc..

And if anything looks a bit daft then we tell each other off, like poker peer group pressure.

peeko

TacT wrote:

lol, probably but it's better if you train yourself to simply not do so!

yeah this is ultimately where we should be all right! And an alarm going off when you are tilting would probably add to it!

yeah luckylucky sounds good, I'm open to anything that will add to my game.

Wreck

luckylucky wrote:

My initial intention was to take a clean break from the game for at least a few days, and there's definitely merit in doing that but found myself getting bored yesterday afternoon and so played again.

This could be a worrying sign - may point towards a genuine addiction. I'm not saying this is necessarily so, but it something you may want to keep an eye on.

TacT

I'd be up for that but think there would be more to be learned from letting one person play their game and discuss the action while the rest watch and listen (disclosing hole cards obviously), let's say on skype, then discuss it with everyone else afterwards and change player each week.

DeadParrot

TacT wrote:

Moving up levels when your bankroll takes a hit. Paying people off in spots where you didn't do so before. Not being humble. Playing when you know you shouldn't -- tired/drunk etc. etc. Bluffing too much instead of picking the right players and spots to do so when you know they can't or won't call.

Raising too often preflop. Playing too many pots OOP with marginal holdings. Getting overly confident after a nice run of cards or when your bankroll gets nice and juicy. Overplaying your draws. Making it personal and/or getting too emotionally involved and thus losing your cool as you said.

Playing on autopilot instead of learning and attempting to develop your game and hone your skills. Playing too often, too long and not taking enough breaks. Playing with money you can't afford to lose. Doing other things while you are playing such as browsing the web, checking email or reading boards instead of concentrating on the cards and action.

Time for a break and to come back fresh by the sounds of it?

May I be so nosey as to enquire what stakes you are playing and with what sort of bankroll please lucky?

excellent post. I've been guilty of more than one of those.

I have to say, its something that bugs the sh1te out of me when you have people banging on the table and whooping and hollering. There was a fair amount of that at the game in the RDS which I put down to over exuberance but I've noticed it playing live a few times.

Emotion is rarely your friend in games that require analytical thinking

luckylucky

Wreck wrote:

This could be a worrying sign - may point towards a genuine addiction. I'm not saying this is necessarily so, but it something you may want to keep an eye on.

A fair point, as I am a full-time poker player though it's kind of routine for me to play, tbh it was more out of boredom, a loss for something to do rather than anything else that I played yesterday. Saying that I'm definitely at least kinda addicted, think most full-time players probably are and I know I could do with more breaks from the game, and I need to put in some effort to make sure I do have more breaks - at least I'm on holidays next week for over a week.
Also If it was another profession I'd be classed as a workaholic which isn't so frowned upon. Anyway it's getting off the point of the thread but might be worth discussing in a seperate thread.

luckylucky

TacT wrote:

I'd be up for that but think there would be more to be learned from letting one person play their game and discuss the action while the rest watch and listen (disclosing hole cards obviously), let's say on skype, then discuss it with everyone else afterwards and change player each week.

Well that could be an option too, but that seems more like a group training type thing, nothing wrong with that idea either per se, though they are some sticky points to it.
a. Need to have trust if sharing hole card info.
b. Your online alias is out there,a few people know some of mine, but I'd prefer if they didn't go for general circulation, you get a group of 6 or more and your alias I think is inevitably going to be wider known.
c. The newbies in the group would get a lot more out of this, not saying my game is flawless or anything but my main problems imo are discipline related, which I suppose could be a side benefit for me if people are watching as I'm less likely to do anything donkish.

Anyway a good idea but I would need to think about it before committing, My initial idea is still the one I'm most interested in tbh. Anyway I guess we could form a group and decide amongst ourselves what approach to take.


If anyone interested, PM me with ur msn.

Doc Farrell

original post:
My current downswing continued but at least this time I was playing games that were within my comfort level, and my play was a lot better as I was just concentrating on playing well rather than being overly concerned whether I lost the pot or not.....



I don't envy you the swings. I thought of going pro about 2 years ago but couldn't face the daily emotional roller coaster. So i stick to the shallow end of the pool and get my kicks elsewhere.

i don't think your job should be your thrill base. Have you thought about taking up a new hobby. I've recently returned to photography just to get out and about in the hills without looking like a serial killer. Unfortunately the stress of knowing i'm a crappy photographer is killing me!

phantom_lord

Interesting idea, could be pretty good.


with regards the original post, I found that by playing a ton of hands I got a certain emotional detachment to the game, I can get runner runner-ed after flopping the nuts or two outted by some idiot, and do little more than sigh. eg, normally I'm sick when I get knocked out of a tournament and go on monkey tilt, but at the student donk fest I got up shrugged my shoulders and walked off.

I don't think I can give you any advice since you're playing alot longer online than the five weeks I am , but I found that not being results orientated is important, it doesn't matter if you're a down on a table/session/day, it's just that you played every hand as best as you could or at least learn where u went wrong, it's a very long term game.

luckylucky

Doc Farrell wrote:

i don't think your job should be your thrill base. Have you thought about taking up a new hobby.

Yeah you're dead right. I've started going to the gym but not doing that enough really, i need to find something a bit more amusing than just the gym I suppose.

Tact wrote:

May I be so nosey as to enquire what stakes you are playing and with what sort of bankroll please lucky?.

Just spotted this question tagged on to your original post Tact.
Not going to reveal exact figures, but I'll give you ballpark, my general range of games are $2-$4 to $10-$20 in both No Limit Hold Em and Pot Limit Omaha. tbh I have never had quite the roll to have played 10-20, I have had the roll to play 5-10, at present I have enough of a roll to play $2-$4, $3-6 maybe at a stretch. I also play Limit Hold Em - and I dont play outside of my bankroll limitations with this for some reason, my range in this is $5-$10 to $30-$60. I do occasionally play smaller levels but that's when I'm sort of goofing around.

BobSloane

If I find myself involved in a pot where i suddenly realise I'm calling or making a bet where I have no clue where my opponent is at - kind of hard to explain. Like I suddenly realise I'm playing the cards and not the position and player. Like say I've got AQ on a flop and turn of A K 4 7. I'm UTG and throw out a bet. My opponent raises and I suddenly realise I've been taking no notice whatsoever of what he's been doing up to now. But I've got an ace and a nice kicker so I call. Then the river comes and I don't know what to do. When I see out this hand - win,lose,fold whatever - I (always plan to)quit, as I realise I'm not concentrating - spacing out or whatever. I find it hard to play the way I'd like to for more than an hour or so.

Badly explained but maybe you know what I'm getting at. Its a warning sign for me anyway