Toll Buyout & Barrier Free Operation

Drax

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1765317&issue_id=15183 (Registration required)

A €600m deal has been done to buy out the West-Link toll on the notorious M50. It will shortly be put before the Cabinet for formal approval.

However, the barriers won't be coming down on the M50 until next year.

And then, drivers will still have to pay tolls - albeit barrier-free charges.

The new tolls will be paid to the State, instead of going into the pocket of the private operators.

Negotiations between the private National Toll Roads (NTR) company and the National Roads Authority are believed to have led to an imminent deal.

NTR will be paid €600m under the buy-out of their franchise 12 years earlier than the 2020 deadline.

The money will be paid from the proceeds of the new barrier-free tolls in a complicated financial arrangement. The booths will be replaced by barrier-free electronic tolling, operated on behalf of the State.

It is understood that NTR will be operating the toll on behalf of the State, which will effectively become the new landlord. This will involve photographing the registration of every vehicle and billing them unless they have a prepaid arrangement. Legislation is being introduced to allow prosecutions of those who refuse to pay the "invisible" tolls.

The new tolling arrangements will be introduced in tandem with the M50 upgrade, which involves freeflow junctions and an extra lane in each direction.

Talks had stalled for some time, but it is understood that a breakthrough is imminent and Transport Minister Martin Cullen is to present the deal to cabinet.

Mr Cullen announced the buy-out last year. An NTR spokesman said yesterday that the matter was "now in the hands of the public sector", while a spokesman for the National Roads Authority said that discussions were ongoing.

Drivers are only tolled now if they cross the West-Link bridge.

Under the new deal, everyone using the M50 will be charged.

A clause in the controversial 1987 deal states that compensation based on the yearly revenue must be paid to NTR if the State scraps tolls at the West Link.

Can someone please tell me what happens to people with Northern plates, foreign plates and people whose plates are so dirty you cant read them. Do these people get to drive the M50 for free??? Why or why is there a toll on this road in the first place... the mind boggles..! Surely the State should be taking steps to remove this toll altogether.

Ham'nd'egger

Drax, NTR took a massive risk to build the West Link (And indeed, the East Link) at a time that the nation was church mouse broke, and as they say, a deal is a deal. Lucky for NTR and their shareholders, it was a super success.

I don't know how barrier free tolling will work in the senses you mention for non Irish vehicles (Where else is it used in the world?) But I can only imagine that there will be a picture taken front and back to catch Irish cars.

All we can do is wait and see what system is proposed.

Drax

Hamndegger wrote:

Drax, NTR took a massive risk to build the West Link (And indeed, the East Link) at a time that the nation was church mouse broke, and as they say, a deal is a deal. Lucky for NTR and their shareholders, it was a super success.

I don't know how barrier free tolling will work in the senses you mention for non Irish vehicles (Where else is it used in the world?) But I can only imagine that there will be a picture taken front and back to catch Irish cars.

All we can do is wait and see what system is proposed.

I understand that it was a risk at the time Ham'nd'egger. My point was not that issue but the fact that now the government has the opportunity to remove it completely but once again has decided that this is too much of a cash cow to remove. I can only imagine the M50 dodging that will take place when it comes in. I dont mind paying tolls on inter-city motorways but tolling an orbital road is stupid. Do you see the likes of the M25 or the Peripherqiue being tolled? Looked at how must better they are - they are full rings...



Some articles:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_toll_collection

Noelie

I don't agree with this at all, for 600 million the goverment could build a new bridge. the toll should stand as it does till the deal is finished.
this is a complete waste of tax payers money, would be better spent on hospitals or education.
let the people who use the bridge pay for it.

They couldn't get electronic voting to work so why would this be any different. will end up costing a lot more than 600million in the end. they should force NTR to upgrade their system to allow barrier free tolling, or give the company tax breaks to make more people use smart cards.

Ham'nd'egger

Actually, the M 25 is tolled at Dartford (Cars pay £1 and trucks pay from £1.80 to £5.80), while France has 000's of roads tolled whcih seem to work well, even if the Peripherqiue doesn't have a toll.

I think the greater problem with lifting the toll barriers entirely and making the road free is that the road will become even more congested than it already is. As it is, traffic for much of the day is dire on the West Link and while it may flow better without this stop, it IMO won't solve it entirely, not to mentioning opening it up to even more cars. If anything, tolling you as you enter and leave will make the road more attractive to long distance drivers by cutting down on much of the Rat Run drivers that use the M 50 at the minute to go from one junction to the next, as well as making junctions more free flowing than they currently are.

There is and was a plan for the M 50 to circle Dublin, the Port Tunnel is part of this ring. Next section is Port to Sandyford, if it ever gets there....

bk

Lots of info here on similar systems:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_number_plate_recognition

For cars from the North and UK, I believe that eventually the Irish and UK governments will end up sharing their car reg DB's. The same problem exists with the penalty point system, it makes sense with improved cross border relations to share this type of info.

For foreign visitors, I think they should let tourists off, however this would lead to a problem with people immigrating and bringing their cars over. This problem could be fixed by forcing people who are staying here for more then 3 weeks (or a month, whatever) to register their car and address. It would be easy to administrate, keep a DB of all the license plates of foreign vehicles going through. If a foreign vehicle goes through over a period greater then the 3 weeks then flag it and the next time it goes through, have a Garda car on the M50 to stop it.

BTW for dirty plates, in other countries, if the number can't be identified, it is automatically flagged to the toll operators, who do a partial search of the numbers they can see on the vehicle registration DB and also check make, model and colour against the DB. You then not only get the toll, you probably also get a fine and penalty points for an obscured license plate which is against the law. Also they could gain have Garda cars waiting on the M50 to pull over such cars.

bk

Noelie wrote:

I don't agree with this at all, for 600 million the goverment could build a new bridge.

I think the point is that this isn't really going to cost 600 million. The government will pay NTR 600 million, however the government will make back most of this 600 million over the next 12 years by operating the toll themselves.

ANPR systems seem to work well in other countries, so there isn't any reason why it shouldn't work here.

Noelie

it is still 600 million that has to be paid up front and then the goverment have to implement the barrier free tolling themselves at a cost to us.
why not leave it the way it is, offer an incetive to use the easy pass to speed up the flow through the barriers and spend the 600M on healthcare of education.
this is spending that should not be alllowed, it's just a vote getter.

Drax

Noelie wrote:

it is still 600 million that has to be paid up front and then the goverment have to implement the barrier free tolling themselves at a cost to us.
why not leave it the way it is, offer an incetive to use the easy pass to speed up the flow through the barriers and spend the 600M on healthcare of education.
this is spending that should not be alllowed, it's just a vote getter.

Easy Pass should be made more attractive like giving a slight reduction in price. Also I think using it Southbound lane is a joke - you still end up queueing right up the toll booths. The northbound lane is a bit better as it stretches across the bridge. There is very little incentive apart from the 'dont have to wind down my window' or 'dont have to fumble for coins'...ahem..."advantage"....cough.

Actually here's a thought - why not spend 600m on finishing the east ring so everyone can go anticlockwise and avoid the damn toll bridge

MrPudding

Noelie wrote:

I don't agree with this at all, for 600 million the goverment could build a new bridge. the toll should stand as it does till the deal is finished.

My understanding is that the contract that NTR have forbids the government from bypassing the toll in anyway, a new bridge for example.

MrP

Noelie

Drax, not having to fumble for change would significantly reduce the time to pass trough the bridge, also if easy pass had a higher uptake they could open more lanes for it.

MrP my point was more that a new one could be built not that it should be

bk

Noelie wrote:

it is still 600 million that has to be paid up front

Not necessarily, the government could easily issue a 600 million government bond (Ireland is AAA rated) with a guaranteed 4% return for 10 years, which many international investors would jump at and then the government could pay off the bond over the 10 years from the tolls.

That way no money is wasted that could be spent on other more important areas like health and education.

The point being that with good planning, the government can both improve public transport for people, without effecting other areas.

The Swordsman

Drax wrote:

Actually here's a thought - why not spend 600m on finishing the east ring so everyone can go anticlockwise and avoid the damn toll bridge

That would possibly be the biggest one way system in the world. Anyway, they'll get you at the tunnel. :mad:

steve-o

MrPudding wrote:

My understanding is that the contract that NTR have forbids the government from bypassing the toll in anyway, a new bridge for example.

MrP

I think it's possibly due to more practical issues. AFAIK, NTR built the M50 from the N3 to the N4 (including the bridge). Bypassing that would be a little difficult

jkgvfg

I don't think the term "practical issues" has any place in this thread.

A. Pay NTR 600M so we can remove tolls.
B. Pay for it out of 12 years of tolling, so we can't remove the tolls.
C. Pay them even more to collect the tolls for us because we don't know much about tolls.

I give up.

bk

jkgvfg wrote:

I don't think the term "practical issues" has any place in this thread.

A. Pay NTR 600M so we can remove tolls.
B. Pay for it out of 12 years of tolling, so we can't remove the tolls.
C. Pay them even more to collect the tolls for us because we don't know much about tolls.

I give up.

Well the practical issue is that NTR are under no obligation to move to a completely electronic, free flow system that the government wants them to move to, which would help reduce traffic problems on the M50.

BTW I believe most toll road contracts since the M50 are very different, with the government maintaining control of the road and toll and only contracting it out to other companies to run. They can change the layout and system if they want later.

Jamax

I think it will be cheaper for the government to pay the toll on behalf of the users to NTR.

This is called 'toll on the shadow' and the M-45 in Madrid was built that way. It's a tolled road (as it was built by a private company at no taxpayers cost) but you see no toll booths. They just count the cars which use the road and every month the Madrid government pays the toll for all the cars which used the road to the company.

jimmycrackcorm

Hamndegger wrote:

Drax, NTR took a massive risk to build the West Link (And indeed, the East Link) at a time that the nation was church mouse broke, and as they say, a deal is a deal. Lucky for NTR and their shareholders, it was a super success.

I don't know how barrier free tolling will work in the senses you mention for non Irish vehicles (Where else is it used in the world?) But I can only imagine that there will be a picture taken front and back to catch Irish cars.

All we can do is wait and see what system is proposed.

NTR didn't take a massive risk. It was a calculated risk but even not foreseeing the huge growth in traffic, it still would have worked out profitably given even a modest growth in traffic and rising inflation over the term of the contract.

Are you surprised by NTR offering to pay for the M50 upgrade in exchange for an extension of their term - does that look risky?

The blame lies between a civil service with no commercial reality and an idealistic gorvernment policy at the time thinking that PPP was the answer to all out problems.

My own suggestion is to extend the eazypass system to allow for a prepay system and force all vehicles to have electronic tags. These could be universally available the same way mobile phone credit is. Whilest detractors decry that people like to use cash, it doesn't stop them from not having mobiles.

bk

Jamax wrote:

I think it will be cheaper for the government to pay the toll on behalf of the users to NTR..

That is the best alternative idea I've heard yet. However it would actually cost the government €600 million (or whatever it would be), unlike the current proposal where it doesn't really cost that as they make the money back on the tolls.

gilroyb

Jamax wrote:

I think it will be cheaper for the government to pay the toll on behalf of the users to NTR.

The M50 has too much traffic to cope, even with the current toll. If people don't personally pay for their usage, they will be more likely to use the road. The government wants to get to a situation where they can charge users personally and so create a disincentive for M50 users. If users got to use the road and the tab was picked up by the government, then there would be even more traffic in this carpark.

NTR were unwilling to move to barrier free tolling, so the gov had no choice but to buy it out. If they had agreed to barrier free tolling, then the government should/would probably have left them alone, seeing as they get 52 cent out of every €1 tolled through taxes etc.

jkgvfg

bk wrote:

Well the practical issue is that NTR are under no obligation to move to a completely electronic, free flow system that the government wants them to move to, which would help reduce traffic problems on the M50

"The Toll company shall provide facilities for the collection of tolls which are adequate having regard to the volume of traffic using the Toll road".
http://www.nra.ie/PublicPrivatePartnership/TollingDocumentation/West-LinkTollAgreement/file,1320,en.PDF
Clause 6.00 B

I would think any solicitor worth his salt could argue that an electronic free-flow system would be required to be "adequate having regard to" the current level of traffic and that this is an obligation!

Flukey

We helped pay to build the bridge, we pay to use it, we will pay to buy it and having done that we will pay to use it again. Madness!

Seth Brundle

I have a few questions which hopefully some people can answer:
* who paid for the second bridge that was recently constructed?
* is there an online copy of the contract between NTR & the government?
* if the entire motorway is tolled (by whatever means), this will possibly lead to more traffic using other routes (through the city etc.). Have any studies been completed into how tolling the entire road will affect traffic?

jkgvfg

The link to the original online contract is above. You can even see Pee Flynn's signature!

My understanding is the second bridge was paid by NTR under the guise of being necessary for adequate flow of traffic.

No idea on the studies.

daymobrew

Flukey wrote:

We helped pay to build the bridge, we pay to use it, we will pay to buy it and having done that we will pay to use it again. Madness!

As stevo-o said, we didn't pay to build it. NTR built the portion of the M50 between the N3 and N4 junctions, including the bridge.
The NRA have learned a lot about PPP contracts since then and new contracts are very different.

gilroyb wrote:

NTR were unwilling to move to barrier free tolling

A big issue is that the law does not provide for fines for non-payment of the toll. At the moment, if someone didn't pay the toll they could only be charged the amount of the toll which wouldn't make it economical to chase down all the non-payers.

Drax wrote:

Easy Pass should be made more attractive like giving a slight reduction in price.

Not only do they charge you full price, they add a monthly service charge and they charge you in advance (topping up when your balance drops to a certain figure - guaranteeing them money to play around with and probably make money from).