Dogs and children (potential)

r3nu4l

Okay, my soon-to-be wife and I hope to have children in the next couple of years but also feel that we would like a dog.

I know that dogs can often feel threatened by the arrival of a child and view the new arrival as lower in the social order of the (family) pack.

My question is should we wait until after we have our last child until we buy a dog or is there a specific breed of dog that is known to be good tempered with children and easier to place into a lower setting in the pack when a child arrives?

I know that any dog can potentially attack a child regardless of social order etc. and that children should never be left alone with dogs but any advice is appreciated. I'd hate to have a child hurt or to have to put down a dog that had attacked a child.

Tabitharose

you're certainly thinking ahead if you want to get a dog now, and hope to have children in the future you should have no issues as long as you put in the work - properly preparing the dog for any new arrivals. A friend of mine took in a rescue collie 2 years ago & had her first baby last year, she asked for & took the advice of a behaviourist & general advice on Pets Ireland & had no issues at all with the new baby.

r3nu4l

Tabitharose wrote:

you're certainly thinking ahead

Well I'd hate to have to get rid of a dog just because it was acting on instinct of 'pack order' but more importantly wouldn't want to put a child at risk either. Best to plan ahead Thanks for the advice

cold_filter

There are no dogs that are by nature going to want to be less than the alpha male or matriarch of the pack so there is no point in trying that.
If you are going to get a dog now, get training for him/her and also if possible have him around young children as much as possible, i have a german shepherd a pretty big one at that, i got him as a puppy and brought him out all the time kids came up to pet him and brought him to see friends/family with young children he became used to them and seen them as higher in the pecking order so now even when a child comes near him he is well behaved, but hey dogs are dogs so dont leave your child alone with your dog even one of those little dogs.

Your kids will ove the dog and the bond that your dog and children will have will be special

r3nu4l

Yep, I have read that puppies should be introduced to as many new people, new places and scenarios and new dogs as possible in the early weeks and months of life so that they become used to them and accept them as normal and non-threatening.

I have also been told that every dog gets to a stage in life where it will challenge its' owner and that if you don't assert your authority then the dog basically assumes it is now boss. Can anyone shed any light on that (bearing in mind the charter and I'm not looking for and don't condone advocacy of beating an animal! )?

peasant

Please get away from the "old school" thinking of "pack order".

A "pack" is something that exists in the wild, either among wolves or wild dogs. A group of unrelated dogs living together is not a "pack" and dog(s) sharing their life with humans most certainly aren't.

A dog basically wants two things: It wants to live in a group (so not on its own) with as little conflict as possible and it wants to get as much of everything as possible.

The "secret" to integrating a dog into your group/family is not to make it the lowest link in the pecking order, but to give it clear rules as to what is and what isn't allowed. Get it into a routine, keep the rules consistenly the same, correct it if it oversteps its boundaries, praise it if it is behaving correctly. All members of the family should stick to theses rules, use the same ones and and be equally consistent in enforcing them. all this can be done without aggression or a power struggle ...jsut be clear and consistent.

As far as the arrival of a new family member is concerned, you prepare the dog before the baby arrives by making sure it understands all rules, you introduce rules that will protect the baby (like no access for the dog to certain rooms and/or taboo areas where the baby is going to be), you make sure that commands like "no","leave it", "stay there", "go to your bed" are followed at all times ...and you're away...


EDIT: once your children get older, you must ensure that they learn to respect the dog and its rights.
At some stage they will become part of the rule-setting half of the family group ...but until they are old enough to do so, they as well will have to follow some strict and consistent rules when it comes to how to (and how not to!) treat the dog. for the dog's safety as much as for their own.

r3nu4l

Thanks for the advice peasant, sounds good. Not knowing much about owning dogs, I didn't realise "pack order" was old school.

cold_filter

r3nu4l wrote:

Thanks for the advice peasant, sounds good. Not knowing much about owning dogs, I didn't realise "pack order" was old school.

Its not as old school as some people think, men being hunter gatherers or needing to sow their wild oats are old school.

Dogs because they were domesticated and yes it was quite a long time ago do have the primitive stream running through them,

And size has nothing to do with being the leader of the pack its about attitude,
My gran has 2 german shepherds a dashund(sausage dog) and a corgi, the sausage dog ran her garden like a military machine, the other dogs were not allowed even eat until the sausage dog eat first and if they tried it the got a nip on the leg for their troubles.

The pack mentality is still there so don't make the mistake of not using it to your advantage. You as leader of the pack need to from the start make this order by being as said previously firm but fair with your dog give it guidelines.
Also if you give it guidelines it will not challenge you.

I play fight with my dog and sometimes i know he could do me some serious damage if he wanted to if im on my back and he's on top (dont make dirty jokes) but when i say stop he stops as he knows im in charge

peasant

Unfortunately, "pack order" is such a simple way of describing things, that it tends to stick. Plus there are a good few people out there to whom this notion of "superiority" somehow appeals, so they run with it.

Of course ...you have to set rules, and you have to enforce them ...so you are in a way "superior" to your dog. but that still doesn't mean that you have to constantly struggle with it and force the rules down its throat (against its will)

Co-operation under a strict and consistent set of rules and guidelines is the "secret".

Problem is ...most humans (we're only human after all:D ) have problems with being consistent ...so rules become watered down and dogs become insecure and /or make up their own ones.

This is were the "pecking order" people advise more or less aggressive measures to "put the dog in its place again" (which could end in confrontation, and quite badly, depending on the dog) ...instead all that's needed is to look at yourself, realise where you have been lax and ambiguous and just change that and become clear and consistent again.

cold_filter

peasant wrote:

Problem is ...most humans (we're only human after all:D ) have problems with being consistent ...so rules become watered down and dogs become insecure and /or make up their own ones.

This is were the "pecking order" people advise more or less aggressive measures to "put the dog in its place again" (which could end in confrontation, and quite badly, depending on the dog) ...instead all that's needed is to look at yourself, realise where you have been lax and ambiguous and just change that and become clear and consistent again.

Could not agree more with that,
People start off great and have rules (i've been guilty of this on occasion myself) but then they start to get lazy.
My dog was never allowed up the stairs but then i start letting him and he basically went to town ripping apart one of the beds, not much point punishing the dog as it was my fault he doesn't go up the stairs anymore.

peasant

Sorry for going (veeeery far) off topic

cold_filter wrote:

And size has nothing to do with being the leader of the pack its about attitude,
My gran has 2 german shepherds a dashund(sausage dog) and a corgi, the sausage dog ran her garden like a military machine, the other dogs were not allowed even eat until the sausage dog eat first and if they tried it the got a nip on the leg for their troubles.

The pack mentality is still there so don't make the mistake of not using it to your advantage. You as leader of the pack need to from the start make this order by being as said previously firm but fair with your dog give it guidelines.
Also if you give it guidelines it will not challenge you.

I play fight with my dog and sometimes i know he could do me some serious damage if he wanted to if im on my back and he's on top (dont make dirty jokes) but when i say stop he stops as he knows im in charge

You're mixing up a few things there;

A human can never be the "leader of a pack" ...you're human, not a dog. Your dog(s) know this as well as you. You can and should be an authority and a leader, but you're not "top dog"

In a group of dogs there will always be dogs that stick out more than others. Dogs that declare certain resources their own and not to be messed with by the others. But even there nothing is a s fixed as "pack" theory would make us believe.
Dogs actually do "job sharing" and the "underling" can become "leader" when it comes to a certain task.
A group of dogs usually has a "top dog" ...but if it is a functioning group, that "top dog" isn't necessarily the biggest or strongest or noisyest or most aggressive ...no, its the calm, relaxed fella (or girl) in the corner that runs the show quietly, effectively and with as little aggression and waste of resources as possible.

cold_filter

peasant wrote:

Sorry for going (veeeery far) off topic




You're mixing up a few things there;

A human can never be the "leader of a pack" ...you're human, not a dog. Your dog(s) know this as well as you. You can and should be an authority and a leader, but you're not "top dog"

In a group of dogs there will always be dogs that stick out more than others. Dogs that declare certain resources their own and not to be messed with by the others. But even there nothing is a s fixed as "pack" theory would make us believe.
Dogs actually do "job sharing" and the "underling" can become "leader" when it comes to a certain task.
A group of dogs usually has a "top dog" ...but if it is a functioning group, that "top dog" isn't necessarily the biggest or strongest or noisyest or most aggressive ...no, its the calm, relaxed fella (or girl) in the corner that runs the show quietly, effectively and with as little aggression and waste of resources as possible.

You've obviously never watched Cesar the dog whisperer on sky one!


the main jobs of a pack leader are 1)to guide the pack to different locations, i walk the dog,
2)to say when the dog can eat, i feed the dog so i say when he can eat.
3)protect the pack, obvisouly im not gonna fight every other dog i see but i did seperate him and a pitbull once... and didnt get bitten!

**Dogs actually do "job sharing" and the "underling" can become "leader" when it comes to a certain task. **

I'd have to disagree with this as the alpha would see this as a challenge to his authority

peasant

Cesar the dog whisperer on sky one!

Oh yes, I had the misfortune of watching that twat torture a dog or two into submission ...not MY idea of a leader, thank you.

But this is going very far off topic (remember the children!:D ) and I'll stop at this point.

Open a new thread on theories of "leadership" if you want and I'll join you there, after work, when I have some more time.

Arcadian

cold_filter wrote:

You've obviously never watched Cesar the dog whisperer on sky one!

I have, he's a moron:mad:

nollaig

I have also been told that every dog gets to a stage in life where it will challenge its' owner

Really???

nollaig

I lived with dogs all my life, we had dogs in our house when I was born and we still have dogs there and I would recommend anybody with plenty of space & have kids to get a dog.

iguana

nollaig wrote:

Really???

It's a stage similar to that which toddlers and teenagers go through. Where they are testing to see what they can get away with. And just like with toddlers and teenagers you have to hold your ground if you want them to respect your rules. It's not like they are challenging your authority in a violent way.

r3nu4l, I'm currently a few months ahead of you an the dog thing and have two Springers, Dougal who we got with his brother, Dinny, at 10 weeks old back in September and Toby who we rehomed a week ago after Dinny died. Future children are definitely a factor to us in their training. One tip that we stick to is if I'm alone with the dogs, and my husband comes in, he ignores the dogs until he has finished greeting me, or vice versa if he is alone with them.

We are the same if we have guests, we don't pay any attention to the dogs until the humans are finished greeting each other. We have also trained them that in order to get attention (or food/treats for that matter) they have to sit down calmly.

r3nu4l

Thanks for the advice iguana, sounds very good

I'll be doing a lot more reading and talking with people and if there's any confusion I'll be back with more questions

deaddonkey

breeds that i think are consistently level headed and good with kids:

GSDs, because i love them and i'm biased and they're fab dogs
labradors/retrievers and crosses
spaniels and pointers

i would stay away from terrier types and crosses, (and collies, because they're too damn smart for their own good.) with kids, but that's just personal experience. I like them, but I wouldn't have them around kids, i reckon they're more likely to snap due to lack of patience than other breeds.

Gigiwagga

Ok, here's my advice for what it worth, I've had various breeds throughout my life and have 3 children on top, so I've seen this situation from different points of view and I have fairly extensive experience with dogs. First thing I'd recommend is ALWAYS get a female regardless of breed always a female this halves the risk of agression straight away, fact. Second, since you're planning a family avoid small terrier breeds as they can resent childrens arrival, this is also a well known trait in German Shepherds as they are often a 'one man dog' and can be jealous of others, even your wife.
If there is a breed you like the look of, find out as much as you can about the breed and how neurotic they are likely to be. My all time favourite dog with children is a Boxer bitch, these, generally are very devoted and loving and extremely gentle with children, we had one for ten years and my children still talk about her, she was wonderful. We have two Westies now, these are nice little dogs, ok with children, though a little nervous. not a patch on our Boxer. Don't forget, get a female, whatever breed you choose.

Gigiwagga

This is our first born with our old Boxer 'Gigi', she was devoted to him, and to us.

iguana

deaddonkey wrote:

breeds that i think are consistently level headed and good with kids:

GSDs, because i love them and i'm biased and they're fab dogs
labradors/retrievers and crosses
spaniels and pointers

i would stay away from terrier types and crosses, (and collies, because they're too damn smart for their own good.) with kids, but that's just personal experience. I like them, but I wouldn't have them around kids, i reckon they're more likely to snap due to lack of patience than other breeds.

We had Border Collies growing up, they were always fine with kids. And my mum was an at home childminder so they were always having to get used to different children coming in and out of the house.

And there are lots of types of spaniels. King Charleses and Springers are completely different dogs, but they are both spaniels. In fact Springers have a very similar temperment to Border Collies.

craggel

On the subject of female boxers - we have one ourselves She is two years old and is a very placid dog. We have two kids four and six and we have had our boxer since she was 11 weeks old and junior was just over two. From day one she has been absolutely brilliant with the kids and has never hurt one of them intentionally. She did knock the older lad over when we were on the beach one day while playing with another dog. But this was totally accidental as she did not see him as she turned. Plus she was only a year old herself so a bit too playful. Any big dog is going to be a potential threat from a physical perspective like knocking over a young kid if they are playing around them so it's a matter of training and trying to prevent the situation occuring.
As for her temperament there is not a vicious bone in her body. She runs from cats, plastic bags or any noise as we are walking. She greets paople at the door with a wagging tail. She rarely barks - usually only to let you know she wants in if she's out the back for more than 10 seconds. The kids lie on her and cuddle her and poke her and pull at her (at least they used to anyway - They are now trained! ) All she ever does is walk away and head to her bed if they get too much for her.
As Mrs Craggel was in the park the other day the 4 yr old ran on ahead (as they do!) and herself being 8.5 months pregnant couldn't run to catch up. She sent the dog after the young 'un and when she got around the corner there was the dog stood between Jnr and three workmen who were planting a tree. Not in a threatening manner I may add. Just standing there watching the men. There have been many instances of her caring attitude to the kids esp. the youngest who whenever he cries she goes over to him and sniffs and licks him.
Having said that as we have the new addition on the way a lot of relatives are showing their concern at having such a "big" dog around the kids. All we can say is that we have never ever taken a chance that the kids would be on their own with the dog and get the kids to feed the dog also so she knows that good things come from them. And get the kids to treat the dog with respect also. As for how the new arrival gets on I'll let you know in a few months. I don't expect problems but won't take chances either.

Either way go get yourself that dog and enjoy.!


p.s I will say one more thing - owning a dog can be hard work esp. when they are pups. Kids are extremely hard work esp. when they are 'pups' so be prepared.......

Craggel

r3nu4l

Thanks for all the replies folks I'm a good way off getting either a dog or having kids just yet but want to "be prepared" for when the day comes. I'll keep reading up and learning until then.

iguana

One thing I would suggest is to never let the dog get in the habit of sleeping in your bedroom. If the dog sleeps in your room then you can't really have your baby sleep in your room. As I don't think it's a good idea to be sleeping while your dog has free access to your baby, just to be on the safe side.

Moving the dog out of your room when the baby is born is a good way to stoke jealousy in the dog. And if you don't intend to have your baby sleep in the same room as you, having the dog sleep in your room while the baby sleeps elsewhere would probably send mixed signals to the dog about who is more important to you.

loismustdie

deaddonkey wrote:

breeds that i think are consistently level headed and good with kids:

GSDs, because i love them and i'm biased and they're fab dogs
labradors/retrievers and crosses
spaniels and pointers

i would stay away from terrier types and crosses, (and collies, because they're too damn smart for their own good.) with kids, but that's just personal experience. I like them, but I wouldn't have them around kids, i reckon they're more likely to snap due to lack of patience than other breeds.

there cant b a hard and fast rule but my mam has a collie who follows my 2yr old niece around the garden but never touches her but lets her climb on her back and pull her tail, but the collie hates my terrier/jack russell. my dog was 5months when my baby was born and tbh we hadnt trained him well but he's been great with him so far, doesn't go near him and knows his boundaries, it does depend on the dog and the owner i think