Simultaneous STT hands- Opinions please

Mellor

Was playing two stts today when both these hands occured at almost the same time. When I finished hand a, hand b started on the other table.
Both of these are $2 dollar tables, 6 handed, regular speed games. I'm trying to start with small deposit and work it up through STTs.




Hand A
First hand of STT
All stacks 2000
I get dealt KK UTG+1

Blinds posted.
UTG calls 40
I push KK. (hoping for a loose call.)
Folded around to UTG who thinks for a few secs and calls.



Hand B
9 Hands into STT,
I have $1060 (lost to a higher flush recently)
Villian has $1880

UTG folds.
I call in UTG+1 with Ac4d (loose call but if i hit will get paid off)
Next player to act makes it 120 to play
folded back to me.
I call hoping to get a nice flop and get him off his hand

Pot is 300
Flop Q43 all clubs
I think I can get a non queen off this hand and push for 940.



Outcomes later. Opinion please.

willietherock

Mellor wrote:

Was playing two stts today when both these hands occured at almost the same time. When I finished hand a, hand b started on the other table.
Both of these are $2 dollar tables, 6 handed, regular speed games. I'm trying to start with small deposit and work it up through STTs.




Hand A
First hand of STT
All stacks 2000
I get dealt KK UTG+1

Blinds posted.
UTG calls 40
I push KK. (hoping for a loose call.)
Folded around to UTG who thinks for a few secs and calls.



Hand B
9 Hands into STT,
I have $1060 (lost to a higher flush recently)
Villian has $1880

UTG folds.
I call in UTG+1 with Ac4d (loose call but if i hit will get paid off)
Next player to act makes it 120 to play
folded back to me.
I call hoping to get a nice flop and get him off his hand

Pot is 300
Flop Q43 all clubs
I think I can get a non queen off this hand and push for 940.



Outcomes later. Opinion please.

Hand 1 is good. Youll be surprised by the amount of times you call with A 10 in this spot at that level.
Hand2 is terrible A4 is as bad a hand imaginable. If you hit 2 pair min, you can play it. Fold.Wait for a decent starting hand, play it strong.

bops

hand 1 - often prefer silly raise of 12xbb or so to let some muppet push ai ott, but i see what youre at and got your caller (who either has shi t and sucks out of AA!!)

hand 2 - fold pf, fold to raise - if A hits board you're still fkd
but as played - pot sized bet better and call ai if required

Mellor

I know I had no business being in hand 2 from any stage. I decided to get involved as I was in a stupidly agressive mood.
Looking for opinions on the push on the flop.
What can call me here.
Villian needs a strong hand to call. If he calls, i figure at the table I have 15 outs. I know im risking too much to win too little. How often does he need to fold this to make it profitable.

Shadowless

Hand 2: Fold pre-flop

As played you've 14 outs by my count (9 clubs, 3 Aces , 2 Fours)
These aces are quite likely dirty though

Anyway if u do have 14 any move is +ev regardless of how often he folds.

Is he likely to continuation bet?
If so I like a crai here.

Hand 1: i like it a lot

phantom_lord

if you're trying to be agro, why'd you open limp?

Mellor

Shadowless, I meant to type 14, my bad.
Obviously if i have a defo 14 outs then it is always +ev. But can't get But there out problems with that. AQ reduces it to 12. QQ drops it to 9, and 8 on the river. And won't win all of them when i hit.6c7c reduces to 11. with alot of re-draws. I know these are worst case scenerio, but they affect it.

During the hand I quickly counted 14 outs, and discounted the times my outs are reduced against the times he folds, is his thinking wrong.

To phantom, agro post flop, trying to take down flops that missed villians, or heavy draws such as this one. I normally play the standard abc tight early stages stt. Felt like mixing it up. I know I should never of been in the hand. At the time I thought the flop play was +ev, not so sure now.

Hectorjelly

both hands suck IMO

Mellor

Hectorjelly wrote:

both hands suck IMO

care to elaborate?
Even hand A only, as I agree i've no defence for being in hand B

Goodluck2me

why open push in hand A, you are giving people WAY too much chance to throw away their hands. you want them in the hand, this is not a good approach unless its been long established that all-in no matter what size/pot are being called with muck.

willietherock

goodluck2me wrote:

why open push in hand A, you are giving people WAY too much chance to throw away their hands. you want them in the hand, this is not a good approach unless its been long established that all-in no matter what size/pot are being called with muck.

becoz at level you get called so much it makes worth while

Mellor

At this level, the calling range is very wide. TT-AA, AK-AJ, KQ - These are pretty defo. I have seen A10 A6 and K2 (with 3 all-ins ahead) in the last week or so.
If this was 10 hands in I'd open with a nice raise, but on the first hand people seem to have a huge range. Must be a time invested thing.

BobSloane

Both these hands made me feel a bit ill. I'm actually wondering if you're taking the piss..?
First off why are you playing $2 tables? What is the fee to play..20-25%..? If so you have an uphill battle straight away working your small deposit upward as the fee % is too high. Could be wrong on this so forgive me if i am.

Hand 1....? Whats wrong with playing the hand in some sort of standard way.

Hand 2....Your "if i hit i will get payed off" philosophy pretty much applies to any two cards with this reasoning. If you hit what..? 4 4 x..? 2 3 5?
Miraculously you flop a pair and the nut flush draw. The pot is 300. You bet 940 to - as you say- " get a non Q off the hand". But you have second pair! You're very likely ahead of any non Q hand. Plus you have the nut flush draw. You couldn't have hoped for a much better flop calling oop with A4o and you're driving them away!

Maybe these tactics worked out well for you. To be honest though I hope they didn't as i think they are terrible. The overbetting, all-in mentality really annoys me - sorry!

Jaden

Shhh! I make money of people who play these two hands as described.

You're tapping the fish bowl again, stop it.

bops

I know that Mellor is a pretty good STT player and had good reaon for playing the above hands the way he did

just because they are not standard plays doesn't mean he's a muppet

the simple fact of the matter is it sometimes pays to play like this at that level

what happened anyway??

Marq

Considering that you're playing 2 dollah stts I think the first hand is great. If this was the second hand of the STT and you had pushed the first, this would be even better, but if it was the second hand of an STT and you had folded the first, it would be much much worse. As is, I like it.

Second hand you played very poorly, but I'm sure if I found myself with the nut flush draw, a pair and an overcard I'd find a way to donk my stack in the centre too, but it wouldn't be in this spectacularly bad fashion.

(loose call but if i hit will get paid off)

Hit what? Problem is that if someone is going to give you action when you hit your hand hard, they've probably hit theirs harder. This is a bollocks hand, fold it.

I think I can get a non queen off this hand and push for 940.

You push for three times the pot! True, you probably get a non-overpair/non-queen to fold, but wouldn't the hands that would fold to your push probably fold to a pot sized bet? Like pocket pairs from 55-JJ.
Any hand that calls is miles ahead of you, and you have to improve. The only reason I can see to push here is to represent the bare flush draw, this would be a much better move if you had AcQx or the made flush, but you don't, you have shít.

Rnger

hand 1 is absolutely fine. I used to open push with AA/KK when i was playing low stakes holdem cash games. Very profitable move at these levels

Mellor

BobSloane wrote:

What is the fee to play..20-25%..?

Its 10%, $2+.20 just like the mid range buy-ins.


I tried to highlight that I only pushed hand A because of the level. At a higher level, or a live tourney this way doesn't show the best payoff.
At this level, I still maintain that this push has the best expectation. The range at this level, esp for the first hand is massive. Some people concentrate too much on trying to trick their opponents, not on trying to maximise payout. Which is more important.

Anyway, the outcome. Hand A, I pushed and UTG called after limping with AA.
No improvement and out on first hand,

Immediatly second table pops up, A4o, I played this on tilt, couldn't of said this in OP as it would of given the first hand away. I should never of played the hand, and admitted from the start it was -ev.
I pushed the flop, knowing that I could be behind, but if I have 14 outs its a +ev play (from situation i have gotten into). This fact added to the possibility of getting the villian off the hand multiplied by the tilt monster, equalled my bad push.

Villian insta-calls with AA. Dont see my any of my 11 outs, and im out.

Looking at the hand after knowing his holding. My pot odds were 1.3/1
I need to win the hand 43% to break even, with 11 outs against AA I will win 43%.

BobSloane

Mellor wrote:

Its 10%, $2+.20 just like the mid range buy-ins.

Ok fair enough. I was just going off party where fees for $3 and $6 games are 25% and 20% respectively.

At what point in the STTs do you stop playing KK like this? I just played a $20 stt where KJ and KQ slugged it out all-in pre-flop. The standard of play doesn't jump that much. Maybe you have a point about the time invested thing though.

Still don't like your plays though

Mellor

I would only play KK like that on the first hand, unless I had information otherwise, such as villian being very bad or loose, or if I have a manaic image from excellant run in first few hands, without showdown.
At this level I still feel that pushing AA or KK in the first hand has very high expectation. I rather double up to 4k once every three hands, than take down 200 everytime.