A hand with strange table dynamics...

Ste05

I don't have the exact HH here with me, but this is to the best of my recollection. Some details may be a little hazy (in particular the turn bet amount, but it's about right)

A little bit about the table dynamics. It's a 6-max table on Tribeca, .50/1. There is an 87/12/4 maniac fish on the table with a stack of ~$250. (which was at $500 at one stage) So the dynamics are a little fcuked up.

The Villain in this hand (not the fish) has ~$220 and I cover.

It's the maniac's BB and I'm UTG, I hadn't done anything too mad when OOP to the rest of the table so I expected this raise to get the respect it deserves (from the table) but for the BB fish to call. Although the button and SB (the other semi decent players with big stacks) know who the mark on the table. And it's basically a race to see who can stack this guy first. We've each taken money off him and each donated some after some sick outdraws and mad random holdings he's had.

I have 6s8s and I make it $4 total UTG. The Villain in the hand is on the button and he re-pops it to $16. everyone folds (including the BB) and it's back to me. I put him squarely on a big PP or AK and call the extra $12.

The flop comes 7s7x10s. Pot (~$33.50)

I check, he bets $8. I call.

Turn Kx, (Pot: $49.50)

I check, he bets $16, I call.

River 3s (Pot 81.50) (Effective stacks left ~$180)

I ????

A little bit of extra info about the Button, I had been giving him savage stick for a while calling him an idiot and the likes because he kept on giving out to the fish and really making him feel stupid and I wanted to shut this guy up, keep the fish happy and make this guy get his anger out on me and not the fish. So this messes with the dynamics even more. But suffice to say he was gunning for me and really wanted to outplay me more than take my money. But I still put him on a strong hand Pre-Flop.

Any thoughts on any street and what would you do on the river.

Just to keep this moving,

I checked the river and he bet $20, does anyone like a lead out and what do you do to this bet??

Marq

As played I would call this river bet.

I doubt there's much value in raising, and leading seems like a blocking bet to me - if you lead for half the pot can you call any raise?

I dislike the UTG raise here. You will have many better opportunities to isolate this fish given your position on him and you'll usually have a better hand than in this spot. There is a strong player in a good position to act behind you.

As you think the Button is a good player you probably don't have the implied odds to call the reraise to 16 with your holding, particularly given the range you put him on. Unless he's definitely going to stack off if you hit a monster I would fold.

Hectorjelly

If he is looking to outplay you, and you are sure of this, then lead the river for 40 and call an all in. Against a normal player I would lead the river for 50 and fold to an all in. I dont like the check at all, and I would probably just call his 20.

A lead isnt just a blocking bet, its also going trying to get value for your hand. The villain will check behind a lot of hands which he will call a bet with.

Mr. Flibble

I'd probably raise 40 and fold to a big reraise. The flop bet looks very weak so he is more likely to have AK than AA. Maybe its TTT, would he reraise PF with TT?
Given that he is gunning for you the river check is probably better as he'll be more likely to overplay his hand.

Ste05

OK, the PF raise I had a feeling would lift some eyebrows, but it was done to keep the other players guessing and I also wanted to play as many hands with this guy as possible, and anything semi-decent/ marginal that I could get with him Heads Up with (I always had position on him) was good. And these kind of hands I don't mind as they are usually very easy to play. Also the BB would pay me off with his stack if I hit something good.

And just to be clear, I never said the button was a good player, he was semi-decent, meaning he wasn't going to do anything crazy, but equally he was not great. And wasn't adjusting to the maniac as well as he should and certainly seemed more pre-occupied with winning money off me than the fish.

So he was definitely trying to outplay me.

Gholimoli

i was going to suggest a lead of maybe half the pot or slighty more and then folding to a reraise.
i saw HJ suggested a call of a reraise against him if he should go all in just becuase he wants to outplay you.
i think this is bad.i think if you lead the river and he comes over the top he deffo has you beat cuz you said he is a decent player.
as much as he would like to outplay you he is not going to try a crazy bluff on a paired/flushed board with nothing.he may call your bet with AA,KK,QQ etc but he is not going to reraise you with them on that board if he is any decent.
so as HJ said i would lead the river but would fold to a push.

phantom_lord

I think he's reraising kk here


I'd just call the 20, I lead the river tho.

Gholimoli

phantom_lord wrote:

I think he's reraising kk here


I'd just call the 20, I lead the river tho.

if he raises our lead on the river with KK on that bored with the way the and has been played(our hand was basically played like a flush draw) then he does not decent at all.

Hectorjelly

if the guy is looking to putplay you then you need to give him rope. You cant trust what people do when they try and outplay you, as they are trying to mislead you. Leading and folding to a push in this hand is really really really bad. If the guy has nothing, or realises his hand isnt best, there is a huge chance he will push all in hoping you cant call.

Gholimoli

Hectorjelly wrote:

if the guy is looking to putplay you then you need to give him rope. You cant trust what people do when they try and outplay you, as they are trying to mislead you. Leading and folding to a push in this hand is really really really bad. If the guy has nothing, or realises his hand isnt best, there is a huge chance he will push all in hoping you cant call.

I understand what you’re saying but look at the way the hand has been played.
The boared pairs on the flop with a flush draw.
We check call all bets till the river and then the draw comes in.
We lead for lets say half the pot :
If he is going to bluff he has to think his bluff will succeed some time.
He does not expect us to fold trips here or a flush and we have played the hand as if we either have trips, boat or a flush, what are the chances of a player who is been called decent, trying to bluff us here with nothing no matter how much he wants to outplay us.
Again this is a player who has been described is some one who is aware and has some understanding of the game and not a total muppet.
I would strongly believe that if he raises our lead he has us beat.

Ste05

While he was trying to outplay me, I didn't think he had the balls to do it with his whole stack (and nothing), so if I lead I was folding to any re-raise. Hence why I didn't lead. Cos there was no way I was folding to this guy. I agree with HJ, if I was leading I'd have had to call a push, but I really wasn't willing to call a push, the mark was the maniac and I didn't really want to play for stacks with this guy when the turn fell. Hence why I didn't lead (chicken sh1t really), hence why I tried to keep the pot somewhat manageable, by check calling. I expected at least a 1/2 - 2/3 pot bet, with nearly everything he had. i.e. Nuts, AA, AK, 3 Barrel bluff and I was planning on calling him down as I actually was slightly worried about KK. (although not enough though to fold the turn :rolleyes:)

But then when when he fired this $20 bet, it annoyed and confused me slightly because I knew he had something but I didn't want to miss value on my hand, as I think it was worth more than $20 on this River, I thought he had either AK, AA or KK. So I raised him upto $60 total, planning on folding to a push but expecting a call. If he folded then he had nothing and so be it.

So the abuse line is open, what do people think of that line??

I also think there's a good chance he'd think I was bluffing as he clearly knew I was capable of making moves and probably thought I was a bit of a maniac myself. I had shown down some VERY marginal holdings against the maniac. My own VPiP was around 40 for this session. but felt very confident he wasn't going to push over the top of a CR without KK.

After all I did Raise UTG, then call a big re-raise.

Gholimoli

Ste05 wrote:

While he was trying to outplay me, I didn't think he had the balls to do it with his whole stack (and nothing), so if I lead I was folding to any re-raise. Hence why I didn't lead. Cos there was no way I was folding to this guy. I agree with HJ, if I was leading I'd have had to call a push, but I really wasn't willing to call a push, the mark was the maniac and I didn't really want to play for stacks with this guy when the turn fell. Hence why I didn't lead (chicken sh1t really), hence why I tried to keep the pot somewhat manageable, by check calling. I expected at least a 1/2 - 2/3 pot bet, with nearly everything he had. i.e. Nuts, AA, AK, 3 Barrel bluff and I was planning on calling him down as I actually was slightly worried about KK. (although not enough though to fold the turn :rolleyes:)

But then when when he fired this $20 bet, it annoyed and confused me slightly because I knew he had something but I didn't want to miss value on my hand, as I think it was worth more than $20 on this River, I thought he had either AK, AA or KK. So I raised him upto $60 total, planning on folding to a push but expecting a call. If he folded then he had nothing and so be it.

So the abuse line is open, what do people think of that line??

I also think there's a good chance he'd think I was bluffing as he clearly knew I was capable of making moves and probably thought I was a bit of a maniac myself. I had shown down some VERY marginal holdings against the maniac. My own VPiP was around 40 for this session. but felt very confident he wasn't going to push over the top of a CR without KK.

After all I did Raise UTG, then call a big re-raise.

The fact that you didn’t want to play for stacks has nothing to do with not leading.
I think not leading this river is a mistake.
What HJ and I disagree on is what to do against his push and that has nothing to do with the reason for leading.
Your leading here because there are a lot of hands that he is willing to call a bet with ,but if you check he will be happy to check it behind and thus not getting value on your hand.
You fold to his shove because its fairly transparent what you have and if he is choosing to come over the top after knowing what you have then its more than likely a hand that beats yours.
The fact that you know he wouldn’t come over the top with nothing is all the more reason for you to lead the river, as then you will have an easy decision should he come over the top.

The line you took is very bad because you have basically accomplished what you would have accomplished had you lead on the river expect you could have done it for cheaper.

Ste05

Gholimoli wrote:

The fact that you didn’t want to play for stacks has nothing to do with not leading.
I think not leading this river is a mistake.
What HJ and I disagree on is what to do against his push and that has nothing to do with the reason for leading.

Well that's where we differ slightly. I didn't want to play for stacks, and because I agree with HJ (as in I have to call the push) I didn't lead. The reasin I wasn't willing to play for stacks was I had enough on the table to call a PSB AND still have enough to clean out the fish in one hand if I was wrong. If I played for stacks and I was wrong. I'd need a double up before I'd have enough to clean out the fish and by then it'd probably be too late. So not only does it cost me this stack, it also costs me the chance of gutting the fish.

I also don't know how you think my hand is all that transparent. I call down quite alot with a variety of hands. It's just basic pot control with whatever I have. I'd probably call the flop with KK or QQ. I'd also bluff call alot.

Gholimoli wrote:

Your leading here because there are a lot of hands that he is willing to call a bet with ,but if you check he will be happy to check it behind and thus not getting value on your hand.

I honestly don't think any player trying to "outplay" me is checking behind, he wants me to fold. He's not trying to make a steady profit off me. He's OK, (as in, not a complete fish), but still a pretty poor player, as 95% of Tribeca .50/1 players are.

Gholimoli wrote:

The fact that you know he wouldn’t come over the top with nothing is all the more reason for you to lead the river, as then you will have an easy decision should he come over the top.

I didn't KNOW he wouldn't come over the top with nothing, I thought he probably wouldn't, but if I gave him the opportunity to I'd have to call but I wasn't willing to risk 200BB's to find out if I was right. The value of those chips to me was worth more going after the fish then taking this slightly +EV gamble. I suppose this could thread could be turned into a thread about taking this gamble as opposed to waiting and using these chips to clean out the fish. I'd probably be on the side of take the EV now as I might not get a chance against the fish. Hmmm interesting.

HJ any thoughts on that, you seem to be suggesting leading (obviously expecting a call) but willing to call a push too. Am I being weak tight here. Or is there any merit in keeping this pot small and keeping enough back to get the maniac's money??

Gholimoli wrote:

The line you took is very bad because you have basically accomplished what you would have accomplished had you lead on the river expect you could have done it for cheaper.

Possibly, but this line just developed, I didn't plan on a C/R and folding to a push. I planned on check calling around a PSB, it just so happened I decided to CR when he bet such a small amount. I don't think I accomplished the same as a lead. I have another whole layer of information and I got the $20 bet out of him. And really anything much less than a $60 lead and I'd 100% have to call the push because it'd look so weak. So IMO there wasn't really any more information available cheaper. But I'm interested in hearing people's thoughts because my River play in marginal value situations is probably the weakest part of my game.

cardshark202

Preflop is bad.
Flop I can't resist check-raising that bet, though bet 3 betting all in would be a supersweet line if he was aggro enough.
Turn: give your read I think you should fold.
River is just a call now, I think the benefits of trying to squeeze value by a cr are outweighed by the negatives of re-opening the betting.

Gholimoli

Ste,
alot of what you say does not make sense to me and infact coming from you its a bit surprising.

Playing this hand optimally has nothing to do with the fish that is not even in the hand .you wanting to stack him on a later hand should not have any influence on the hand in question and how it should be played.
im sure you don’t need me to tell you thin which is why im surprised you are saying such a thing.

not wanting to play for stack because you want to have chips left to stack some one else!!!!!
what are you doing raising UTG with 68s and calling a reraise then?

i said if you lead the river your hand is very transparent so him coming over the top means he more than likely has you beat.
its transparent because you are check/calling on two streets with a draw out there and then leading when the draw comes in. you have either hit your draw or have been slow playing trips/boat from the flop ,so its very transparent.
also it does not matter whether you are bluffing here or not, what im trying to say is that when you lead the river and he comes over the top then he is more than likely has a hand that has you beat, now you could have the flush you have now or you could be bluffing ,to him it does not matter .


you said in your other post "i don’t think he has the balls to come over the top with nothing" .
Again the fact the less likely you think it is for him to come over the top with a bluff then the more you should be inclined to lead the river.

you have check called his bets on two streets .
the bored has paired and now has flushed.
i think alot of single pair hands here would check behind for example AA ,QQ ,JJ and the likes.

However if you lead he may very well call a bet from you because he thinks he has show down value and you may be bluffing.

you may loose a bluff from him by not checking but that’s all i think alot of ppl will not bluff this .
again you have check called on two streets and the draw has come in .


Again you talk about the value of the chips being worth more,
as you know this is none sense.
the value of the chips are worth exactly that.
this is not a tourney its a cash game.
if you bust you can rebuy and go after fish.


on the end by check/raising you are essentially bluffing .
we will not call with a hand worse than yours but you can faced with the decision you were trying to avoid which is for him pushing.

again he is either capable of bluffing or not.
if outplaying you means everything to him then he can come over the top here with a bluff as well so you have spend $60 and now you have to fold.
if he calls this C/R with hands that you can beat then he would have done the same thing if you lead the river.

Ste05

Thanks for the reasoned and well thought out response Gholi, however I think that the main difference between us is what to do to the potential push if I lead out. If I lead here I will not fold. My hand quite simply isn't as transparent as you seem to think. Exactly what hands raise UTG and then call a raise, and check call weak bets down. ALOT more than flush draws. It seems quite obvious he is trying to milk a few extra $$ out of me or some sort of crappy little bluffs setting something up. He has exactly AK, KK or AA. You also are giving this guy FAR too much credit. This isn't you or another boardster on the button. This guy is a run of the mill (not complete donkey) .50/1 semi-decent player. No more, no less.

Just suppose for a second that your play isn't as transparent as you'll always have a flush draw here and that if you lead out, you will have to call the bet, now what do you do.

I also get your point about this not being a tournament etc. and obviously I agree with you there. But the maniac fish was literally hemorrhaging chips and there was only a limited time to get the free money. He literally had a VPiP of 87. But I see your point here. And as I said above, I'd probably be in the camp of take any EV when it's offered. Although it was in the back of my mind, my main thought was about pot control and my own risk aversion. (I really just mentioned it thinking there might be a discussion in the point, but I think you are right and there isn't I'd agree with you that EV should be taken when and where it's offered instead of the chance of future higher EV spots) I didn't want to lead because I was going to have to call the raise, which I thought was likely to happen. And I thought he'd do it with KK, but equally with AA, I thought he'd call a lead with AK but fold everything else.

If the board didn't pair on the flop, or he had bet properly at any time, obviously this hand would have played out very differently, he kept me in on the flop and turn and in my mind it was a simple check call on the River, because I wanted to play for 1/2 or Full pot on the River as opposed to 2x times the pot risking the chance he had KK. It's just pot control with the same risk in my mind. Until he just bet $20 and that changed things for me.

As I said I didn't plan on C/R'ing here, so forget about that as me planning it after I checked, but when someone bets $20 into an $80 pot leaving $160 behind and I have a flush. I feel that my hand is certainly worth another $40. And by no means is that a bluff, he'll call with AA and AK, (do you think he's folding either for $40 into a $120 pot?) but will push with KK. The whole way he's been showing weakness and obviously waiting to 3 bet me, but with such a scare card he'll only 3 bet me now with KK.

It's hard to explain my thinking here properly, but basically I thought he would never bluff me there, whereas if I lead he's more than liable to value push hands like AK and AA, (he won't know he's effectively bluffing) as well as possibly try a bluff (this is what I thought he didn't have the balls to do). But he's not good enough to know he'd effectively be bluffing with AA. Whereas when I C/R'ed now, I was fairly sure he'd only call with AA and AK but push with KK.

hotspur

How come you think he is liable to value push Ak or AA if you lead? That would be a pretty lousy play if you lead out for a respectable amount on the river.

I'm still stuck back on the flop when he bet $8 into a $33 pot. If he were a *somehwhat* competent player this would incline me to rule out KK as a likely holding, along with Ak not of spades. It smacks of 1010, Ak of spades, or AA. Only 1 of these you beat on the river. Perhaps I'm misdiagnosing the $8 bet, if he's a Godawful random 50c/1 player then it's standard idiocy. But you said he was trying to outplay you, it's difficult to see how betting $8 there is a means to that unless it's a trap. I usually laugh at players who draw to the flush and then check it, but given the board if you are not prepared to call an all in after a lead then leading probably isn't a great idea. A flat call would be fine if you're not playing big bet poker.

Ste05

hotspur wrote:

How come you think he is liable to value push Ak or AA if you lead? That would be a pretty lousy play if you lead out for a respectable amount on the river.

Because I think he was setting this up the whole way, I think he was trying to lure me in, to take a shot somewhere and to then re-raise or 3-bet me. I'd been check calling and C/R'ing with very marginal hands against the maniac and I'd say he thought I'd play the hands the same against him as I would against the maniac. Hence why I thought he was trying to set me up for a 3 bet at some stage of the hand. He was very happy with his hand.

hotspur wrote:

I'm still stuck back on the flop when he bet $8 into a $33 pot. If he were a *somehwhat* competent player this would incline me to rule out KK as a likely holding, along with Ak not of spades. It smacks of 1010, Ak of spades, or AA. Only 1 of these you beat on the river. Perhaps I'm misdiagnosing the $8 bet, if he's a Godawful random 50c/1 player then it's standard idiocy. But you said he was trying to outplay you, it's difficult to see how betting $8 there is a means to that unless it's a trap.

I actually thought that he had AA or KK (with a slight chance of a scared AK) even more so with this flop bet, and I certainly did think it was a trap, but one with an overpair as opposed to a draw (AKc) or a house. If the turn was any card other than the K or an A, then I'd play for stacks if I hit the flush.

I just checked and the flop was actually 10,10,7 if that changes anything? Probably reduces 10,10 from his range.