Sinn Fein backs police in historic vote

joebhoy1916

DUBLIN (Reuters) - Sinn Fein voted to end decades of opposition to Northern Ireland's police force on Sunday, removing a key obstacle to the restoration of a regional power-sharing government.

The party, political ally of the IRA which killed nearly 300 police officers during a 30-year campaign against British rule, voted overwhelmingly at a special meeting in Dublin to back the Protestant-dominated

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force.
The vote, a momentous step for Sinn Fein, could end political stalemate in Northern Ireland after the suspension in 2002 of a power-sharing assembly between majority pro-British Protestants and a Catholic minority who want a united Ireland.

Backing for the rule of law is required by the province's biggest pro-British Protestant grouping, the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP), before it will consider sharing power in a Belfast-based assembly set up under a 1998 peace deal.

"The decision we have taken today is truly historic," Sinn Fein leader Gerry Adams said at the end of the conference, which was attended by more than 2,000 delegates.

"You have created the opportunity to significantly advance our struggle -- it's now up to you," he told the gathering.

Sinn Fein's predominantly Catholic support base has long viewed the province's justice system as favouring Protestants.

No one from the DUP was immediately available to comment but the party has repeatedly said it will wait to see proof of Sinn Fein's commitment before making any final decisions.

More than 3,600 people were killed in Northern Ireland's conflict, with the IRA responsible for nearly half the deaths.

Violence has subsided over the past decade and the province is enjoying increased prosperity, but the two communities remain deeply divided and political cooperation has proved difficult.

BLAIR HOPES

There had been speculation that a report earlier this week detailing collusion between senior Northern Ireland police officers and Protestant killers could stiffened resistance among hardliners but the Sinn Fein leadership held up the revelations as further reason to become involved in law and order.

Reassurances by the British government in recent weeks about limiting the role of spy service MI5 in the province's security arrangements, and restrictions on the use of plastic bullets have also helped ease Sinn Fein jitters.

The result was welcomed by Prime Minister Tony Blair who wants to break the impasse in Northern Ireland before he leaves office this year.

"The Prime Minister welcomes this historic decision and recognises the leadership it has taken to get to this point," a spokesman said.

Earlier, Blair said developments were at a critical stage, with a solid basis for the province's future within grasp.

"What a fantastic thing that would be -- instead of waking up as we used to years ago to violence and terrorism in Northern Ireland, we have the prospect of peace," he told the BBC.

The regional government, which London and Dublin hope will resume work by March 26, folded four years ago after a spying scandal shattered an already fragile cross-party administration.

So what now for the north. I wonder what reason the DUP will give now for not going into power sharing.

Villain

Paisley has spoken:
From BreakingNews.ie:

The time for true and visible Sinn Féin support for policing has arrived, the Rev Ian Paisley’s Democratic Unionists said tonight.

The party leader said they had forced republicans to recognise the Police Service of Northern Ireland.

Delegates at a special Sinn Féin Ard Fheis in Dublin voted overwhelmingly to work with the service.

Mr Paisley said: “The DUP has forced Sinn Féin to recognise support for the police and the rule of law as an issue of paramount importance for which there can be no other way. Sinn Féin must now walk this road.

“No post-dated action can take the place of real delivery. The postponements must come to an end.

“The time for true, visible and open support for the police and law enforcement has arrived.”



Today’s shift means telling police about crime, taking seats on accountability bodies like the Policing Board and District Policing Partnerships.

Mr Paisley said anything less than full implementation of Sinn Féin’s commitments would render today’s meeting valueless.

“Only with real delivery can the way be cleared for a full return to democracy and a facing up to the everyday needs and requirements of the people of Northern Ireland,” he said.

“The site must be cleared before proper building can begin. All Ulster people, across both the religious and political divides, know that it is now or never.”

The DUP, the majority unionist party, will be expected to share power with Sinn Féin by the time the Northern Ireland Assembly and Executive is restored on March 26.

That was part of the deal agreed last October by the Irish and British governments at St Andrews in Scotland.

This is a huge step forward for the North everyone involved in bringing this deal together is to be commended. I just hope dissident republicans don't mess it up.

baztard

The next DUP goal post shift will be: Make the IRA give back the money from the Northern Bank raid or we wont go into government with you. After that it'll be make Gerry Adams shave off his beard because we cant see what he's hiding behind it, or we wont go into government with you.

mike65

If they make Adams shave his beard off, he won't be recognisable!

No surprise in the vote, he woud'nt have convened the EGM if he was'nt sure of the result.

Mike.

Flukey

It is good that the Shinners have done this, but as usual we await what the Duppers will do. Usually they don't do much. There will be pressure on them now though.

InFront

baztard wrote:

The next DUP goal post shift will be: Make the IRA give back the money from the Northern Bank raid or we wont go into government with you.

Actually I think it's "We want to see how this policy change is manifested in the communities before we go into government with you". Well that's according to Ian paisley junior on The Week In Politics tonight.

That's a predictable and reasonable position to take. Looking at it objectively, it makes the most sense.

It would be a tragedy if the DUP split or met the same fate as the UUP simply by being under-cautious. Their trepidation is on the whole, positive. It is maintaining the trust of their community until such time that the community feel ready to push it on.
If Sinn Fein are dedicated to policing, they will still be dedicated in five weeks time. There's no use telling the Unionists that the PSNI will be afforded recognition, you need to show them that this is the case. That cannot reasonably be expected to happen overnight.

Peace and tolerance is tip-toeing into Northern Ireland, and correctly so. If you try to get it booming in you'll just upset the apple cart. I am glad that the DUP are being a bit hesitant - there is progress in baby steps.

This is a huge step forward for the North everyone involved in bringing this deal together is to be commended

What is commendable about accepting the rule of law?

Yes today was a huge day for Northern Ireland, it shows how far sectarian politics has come, but it also demonstrates very clearly how far they have to go.
Recognizing the basic machinery of the state is one of the most basic steps one can take in a democracy. This move was quite rightly expected and demanded of Sinn Fein.
I don't think they, or we, should be showing gratitude any more than we should be thanking a thief for not robbing us.

SeanW

I can understand why SF didn't support the police - they had, and perhaps still have, a lot of issues with loyalist collusion/conspiracy. They would have been within their rights not to support them today, but they did. After all this time, I must say fair dues to them for being the "bigger man" about the whole thing.

Just look at what has happened in under 2 years - the IRA have given up the armed struggle completely and verifiably handed over all their weaponsm, the leadership stated clearly that no republican should commit crimes anymore (remember Gerry Adams frank words about the people involved in the vodka heist a year ago?) and Sinn Fein have now finished the job by voicing support and confidence in the police. Credit must be given to Gerry Adams and the leadership of the republican movement for this complete turnaround which I think can only benefit everyone on this entire island.

SF/IRA have done just about everything short of singing "God Save The Queen." They now have a real chance throw down the gauntlet to the DUP and finally see if they're prepared to do a deal or not, which I hope they are.

cormac_s

Recognizing the basic machinery of the state is one of the most basic steps one can take in a democracy. This move was quite rightly expected and demanded of Sinn Fein.

Thats a bit of an over simplification.

The main problem Sinn Fein have had with the policing board is that fact that it had no power whatsoever to do anything about its recommendations, and no-one had the need to take any notice of anything the policing board had to say. a talking shop some would call it, and basically pretty useless. The power the policing board originally had was transferred to the british government.

Part of the negotiations was that this power is transfered back, which it apparently will be. now that the policing board actually has some teeth, its worth being a part of.

jank

What is commendable about accepting the rule of law

Now i wouldnt call policing in the north over the last 40 years "normal" rule of law by western standards. Would you? Wasnt there a report a few days ago stating this and that.?;)

axer

InFront wrote:

Actually I think it's "We want to see how this policy change is manifested in the communities before we go into government with you".

And how are they going to quantify policy change manifesting in communities? Thats just a bull**** reason not to commit.

InFront wrote:

What is commendable about accepting the rule of law?

I can only imagine it is not easy to accept a rule of law that has proven itself sectarian time and time again in the past. How would you feel if that "rule of law" helped murder your children, your neighbours etc. It would take me a long time to ever trust them again.

InFront wrote:

Yes today was a huge day for Northern Ireland, it shows how far sectarian politics has come, but it also demonstrates very clearly how far they have to go.
Recognizing the basic machinery of the state is one of the most basic steps one can take in a democracy. This move was quite rightly expected and demanded of Sinn Fein.
I don't think they, or we, should be showing gratitude any more than we should be thanking a thief for not robbing us.

I think they should be praised for the mojor movement and compromise that they have shown. Lets just see what the DUP ask for next.

Eamo71

axer wrote:

And how are they going to quantify policy change manifesting in communities? Thats just a bull**** reason not to commit.

I can only imagine it is not easy to accept a rule of law that has proven itself sectarian time and time again in the past. How would you feel if that "rule of law" helped murder your children, your neighbours etc. It would take me a long time to ever trust them again.

I think they should be praised for the mojor movement and compromise that they have shown. Lets just see what the DUP ask for next.

Yes, it's always interesting to see what the next obstacle the DUP will put in front of the process.

Photographs of all nationalists shaking the hand of their local policeman?
It wouldn't do for some photographs now,there'd have to be photographs of them all.
Best do this with the nationalists wearing t- shirt's with the word papist on them to be sure...

sceptre

jank wrote:

Now i wouldnt call policing in the north over the last 40 years "normal" rule of law by western standards. Would you? Wasnt there a report a few days ago stating this and that.?;)

There was. How would you rate the rule of law or policing in Northern Ireland at the moment, given that this is the obvious basis for the decision in question?

Sand

I can only imagine it is not easy to accept a rule of law that has proven itself sectarian time and time again in the past. How would you feel if that "rule of law" helped murder your children, your neighbours etc. It would take me a long time to ever trust them again.

It works both ways, especially when you consider SFIRA are being asked to recognise a reformed PSNI, whereas the DUP are being asked to recognise Martin McGuinness and Gerry Adams who as you say "helped murder your children, your neighbours etc. It would take me a long time to trust them ever again".

The PSNI and the Northern Ireland state has been putting words into action for years. SFIRA are still at the words stage. This announcement doesnt mean that the SFIRA activists who saw Robert McCartney attacked and dragged out into the street to be butchered will give proper statements to assist PSNI inquiries. If a similar incident happened tommorrow, the same attitude would prevail. Until that changes....

And of course, the price for SFIRA acceptance of the PSNI has been the otherwise inexplicable shutdown of Northern Irelands version of the Criminal Assets Bureau, which has be extremely successful in tracking down paramilitary and organised crime assets. Too successful for the liking of "good republicans" like Tom "Slab" Murphy it seems. Easy to accept policing if policing is designed to allow you to commit crimes you want to commit.

jank

SFIRA are still at the words stage

*Cough* Decommisining *Cough*

If a similar incident happened tommorrow, the same attitude would prevail

You can tell the future??:eek: Any chance of Wednesday lotto numbers

he otherwise inexplicable shutdown of Northern Irelands version of the Criminal Assets Bureau

First time I heard of this. Can you back this up?

Voipjunkie

jank wrote:

First time I heard of this. Can you back this up?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6251339.stm

Strange would not shock me although they promise there will be no let up in the pursuit of criminals.

Villain

Sand wrote:

It works both ways, especially when you consider SFIRA are being asked to recognise a reformed PSNI, whereas the DUP are being asked to recognise Martin McGuinness and Gerry Adams who as you say "helped murder your children, your neighbours etc. It would take me a long time to trust them ever again".

There are politicians on both side that have violent pasts, people can't live in the past and expect peace, SF have brought the republican movement to an historical point, one that many doubted they could achieve.

The DUP have dragged their feet at every stage if they really want peace for EVERYONE they have to move and they have to enter powersharing with SF who represent the majority of Nationalists.

Sand wrote:

The PSNI and the Northern Ireland state has been putting words into action for years. SFIRA are still at the words stage.

Oh so at the words stage they have managed to get the IRA to cease ALL activity's as stated by IMC reports??

Sand wrote:

This announcement doesnt mean that the SFIRA activists who saw Robert McCartney attacked and dragged out into the street to be butchered will give proper statements to assist PSNI inquiries. If a similar incident happened tommorrow, the same attitude would prevail. Until that changes....

How in gods name could you know that, offer proof or retract that statement please.

Sand wrote:

And of course, the price for SFIRA acceptance of the PSNI has been the otherwise inexplicable shutdown of Northern Irelands version of the Criminal Assets Bureau, which has be extremely successful in tracking down paramilitary and organised crime assets. Too successful for the liking of "good republicans" like Tom "Slab" Murphy it seems. Easy to accept policing if policing is designed to allow you to commit crimes you want to commit.

It is not been shut down get your facts right Sand, the work it carry's out will still continue just as part of the Serious Organised Crime Agency (SOCA).

What is it you want SF to do bend over and let Paisley spank them in public?? Sorry but I really don't see what more they can do?

oscarBravo

irish1 wrote:

How in gods name could you know that, offer proof or retract that statement please.

What exactly are you looking for proof of?

cormac_s

i would assume this bit:

If a similar incident happened tommorrow, the same attitude would prevail

Villain

Yes Cormas_s got it in one, Sand didn't present that as opinion it looks like he is stating that as if its a fact, I would love to see him prove that accusation.

oscarBravo

He's talking about the consequences of a hypothetical future situation. Unless he's got a crystal ball, of course it's his opinion.

Villain

Well he should say its an opinion or offer proof, I thought that was the rules of the forum??

oscarBravo

I've made my opinion clear. Back on topic.

A Dub in Glasgo

The change of name from the RUC to the PSNI doesn't mean that the police officers who ran death squads will stop. If a similar opportunity happened tommorrow, the same attitude would prevail. Until that changes....

sceptre

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Until that changes....

... the lads with the unofficial militias will be ready to buy a few guns again?

Pure supposition I'm afraid. Adding ellipsis doesn't make it any more true.

Jackie laughlin

The move from RUC to PSNI was more than a name change. I wish An Garda and its management/supervision were structured in the same way.

So what does this historic decision mean? The DUP will now form a Government of Northern Ireland with SFIRA. Extremists rule OK?

Now that SFIRA full recognises partition, would some brave journalist insist on knowing what their so-called "war" was about.

InFront

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

The change of name from the RUC to the PSNI doesn't mean that the police officers who ran death squads will stop.

Except you're overlooking that changes have actually involved more than just a name change.
Policing procedures had already been brought officially in line with about 75% of the recommendations of the Patten Report. After the recent developments it is fair to say that has just been progressed even further. the biggest obstacle left to the Patten report now is devolution of the thing.
Such reports are particularly positive for policing, and the new force headed by Hugh Orde has been publicly praised by Nuala O Loan.

Why do you suggest it is only really a name change?

irish1

irish1 wrote:

How in gods name could you know that, offer proof or retract that statement please.

The bit about not co operating with the psni if IRA members are involved? I heard a few commentators speak on this over the weekend (one of them was a Sunday Tribune NI spokesperson iirc) and state thats what they expected.
I also heard Gerry Adams yesterday on RTÉ going into specefics as to where there should be co operation with the psni giving examples of rapists,thugs and joyriding etc.

Why would he be giving specefic examples rather than just to say co operate with the police when law breaking is being investigated full stop?
It appears to me to be because he wants an out albeit privately an out when it comes to trickier co operation situations.

Remember the type of people who are more opposed to Sundays decision are those more likely to be less likely to give up the ways of the IRA and these are the very people that Adams has to thread softly around.
They may not do another McCartney but Adams and co aren't going to make it obvious that if they do,that they will have to be shopped on to the police.


There are no issues similar to the RUC with respect to the Gardaí and yet a wall of silence apparently came down over the murder of Joseph Rafferty for instance.In other words, theres an unwritten code there anathema to the rest of society.
SF's tactical move into mainstream politics in the last decade or more has managed to put these incidences to a minimum but they are worrying none the less.
In my opinion,to think that crimes directly involving IRA buddies will prompt more PSNI co operation after sundays decision would be naive.

Sand

There are politicians on both side that have violent pasts, people can't live in the past and expect peace, SF have brought the republican movement to an historical point, one that many doubted they could achieve.

The DUP have dragged their feet at every stage if they really want peace for EVERYONE they have to move and they have to enter powersharing with SF who represent the majority of Nationalists.

Yadda yadda. Talk is cheap. When Adams and Co co-operate with the PSNI in the fashion that we would expect in our own democracy from government parties, then they will have brought the provos to an actual historical point.

How in gods name could you know that, offer proof or retract that statement please.

Eh no, and no. Theres a report bad post there you can use to complain. Im sure the mods will get right on it.

It is not been shut down get your facts right Sand, the work it carry's out will still continue just as part of the Serious Organised Crime Agency (SOCA).

Yeah, a successful Belfast based agency focused on the paramilitary/crime organisations of Northern Ireland is moved to London where it is subsumed into a larger broader focused organisation which deals with UK organised criminals of a very different nature than what is found in Northern Ireland. I sure the NI paramilitary groups will receive just as much attention from London as they would have from the ARA.

Yeah, its hard to see why Hugh Orde has voiced concern over the shutdown of the ARA and has mentioned he will set up a unit in his own force if needed. Seeing as he would surely have been fully briefed on this development that seems odd doesnt it, if its just business as usual?

Funny timing as well given SFIRA sign up for policing just as Murphy hears his tormentors in the ARA are being disbanded. Reminds me of the way Hain jailed an IRA guy one weekend and freed him by the next SFIRA press release. Ah, but I can be very cynical. Im sure the Provos, Bertie and Blair are shining paladins of virtue whod be shocked at even the concept.

What is it you want SF to do bend over and let Paisley spank them in public?? Sorry but I really don't see what more they can do?

Yeah, the Provos couldnt see what more they could do back in 1993. They literally need hand puppets to explain it to them.
But jesus, arent they superstars all the same - recognising that the PSNI is the police force of Northern Ireland. Christ, brave move, gutsy move. Up next, SFIRA recognises that the Titanic sank.

In my opinion,to think that crimes directly involving IRA buddies will prompt more PSNI co operation after sundays decision would be naive.

Tristrame, are you daring to question a press release from Gerry? Blasphemy!

Villain

Sand wrote:

Yadda yadda. Talk is cheap. When Adams and Co co-operate with the PSNI in the fashion that we would expect in our own democracy from government parties, then they will have brought the provos to an actual historical point.

Ah but do you see a democracy with government parties elected by the voters of Northern Ireland because I sure as hell don't, have you seen collusion in our democracy simalar to that of the RUC???

If you want to compare like with like you can't just pick the bits you like Sand.

Sand wrote:

Eh no, and no. Theres a report bad post there you can use to complain. Im sure the mods will get right on it.

Ah so you can't prove it, thats fine.

Sand wrote:

Yeah, a successful Belfast based agency focused on the paramilitary/crime organisations of Northern Ireland is moved to London where it is subsumed into a larger broader focused organisation which deals with UK organised criminals of a very different nature than what is found in Northern Ireland. I sure the NI paramilitary groups will receive just as much attention from London as they would have from the ARA.

Yeah, its hard to see why Hugh Orde has voiced concern over the shutdown of the ARA and has mentioned he will set up a unit in his own force if needed. Seeing as he would surely have been fully briefed on this development that seems odd doesnt it, if its just business as usual?

Funny timing as well given SFIRA sign up for policing just as Murphy hears his tormentors in the ARA are being disbanded. Reminds me of the way Hain jailed an IRA guy one weekend and freed him by the next SFIRA press release. Ah, but I can be very cynical. Im sure the Provos, Bertie and Blair are shining paladins of virtue whod be shocked at even the concept.

So in other words you were incorrect when you said it was been "Shutdown"!

Sand wrote:

Yeah, the Provos couldnt see what more they could do back in 1993. They literally need hand puppets to explain it to them.
But jesus, arent they superstars all the same - recognising that the PSNI is the police force of Northern Ireland. Christ, brave move, gutsy move. Up next, SFIRA recognises that the Titanic sank.

Oh right so you demand action and then when its delivered you slag them off for it, I asked what more you want them to do but you failed to answer that part. Its funny also the way you never mention the Loyalists groups that have failed to cease all activity's either, but hey their not nationalists or republicans so they can do whatever they like, right? Just like the DUP who demand and demand and then when the demands are met shift the demands again.

Sinn Fein have delivered, both the Irish and British governments agree on that, as for the DUP well we are still waiting.....

Sand wrote:

Tristrame, are you daring to question a press release from Gerry? Blasphemy!

Funny the way no-one questioned his press release when he said "They haven't gone away you know", but some people will just believe what they want and ignore the rest:rolleyes:

oscarBravo

irish1 wrote:

Ah so you can't prove it, thats fine.

Seriously, irish1: let it go. As for you, Sand:

Sand wrote:

Eh no, and no. Theres a report bad post there you can use to complain. Im sure the mods will get right on it.

It had already been dealt with. There was no need to get the dig in.

Back on topic - and less of the bickering, please.

jank

then they will have brought the provos to an actual historical point.

What its 1993 and still the troubles in the North as bad as ever...:D

Oh right...:)

The more i listen to you Sand the more you begin to sound like Ann Coulter. You might take that as a compliment actually so ill retract it.:)

Jackie laughlin

SF are the provos. Remember: "Provisional Sinn Fein" and "Provisional IRA".

sceptre

Thin ice on the none-too-subtle personal jibes jank. Benefit of doubt removed should you require it at any point in the future. Please post like a rule-reading adult.

Raskolnikov

I'm sorry, but as someone who has lived in N. Ireland, foreigners like Sand and Jackie Laughlin don't have a clue what they're talking about.

For one, the issue of supporting policing isn't a concern for just Sinn Féin supporters. There are plenty of non Sinn Féin supporters out there who do not support the PSNI. If people think that this issue will disappear because Sinn Féin have endorsed the PSNI and have encouraged all members to abide by the UK rule of law, then they're mistaken.

Also, no one here (by the sounds of it), has endured the discrimination that many in the North have faced. In Portadown, it was only a decade ago that the police baton charged unarmed men and women staging a peaceful protest on the Garavaghy Road. A decade since Robert Hammill was beaten to death in the town centre while the RUC in the area did nothing to stop the attack. For crying out loud, there was even a priest put in hospital by the RUC for organising a St. Patricks' Day parade down a Catholic area. This isn't forgotten easily. In supporting policing, for many Catholics this is a two-way process. Once the police service proves itself to them as just, they will support it.

Another thing, I find ironic is how certain posters who find all things N. Ireland related so anathematic, can devote so much time and attention to something that doesn't concern them in the slightest. It's rather voyeuristic

sceptre

Raskolnikov wrote:

Also, no one here (by the sounds of it), has endured the discrimination that many in the North have faced. In Portadown, it was only a decade ago that the police baton charged unarmed men and women staging a peaceful protest on the Garavaghy Road. A decade since Robert Hammill was beaten to death in the town centre while the RUC in the area did nothing to stop the attack.

Apparently not by the sounds of it.

Although your profile says you're currently in Dublin, I'm assuming you've lived somewhere in NI at some point so you may well be a reasonable person to ask the same question I posed on page one of this thread, to which the person asked didn't bother their ass to reply. How would you rate the rule of law or policing in Northern Ireland at the moment, given that this is the obvious basis for the decision in question?

Jackie laughlin

Raskolnicov,
What a strange posting! It's utterly partitionist.

A Dub in Glasgo

sceptre wrote:

Pure supposition I'm afraid. Adding ellipsis doesn't make it any more true.

I am very much aware of that one

LordSutch

And about bloody time too ...........................

Lets see if their deeds match their words.

axer

Sand wrote:

This announcement doesnt mean that the SFIRA activists who saw Robert McCartney attacked and dragged out into the street to be butchered will give proper statements to assist PSNI inquiries.

I see Gerry Adams has called on anyone who saw anything in the Robert McCartney case to give full statements to the PSNI/RUC.

folk_smith

So, does this move get us closer to a united Ireland? Or is that dream all but gone?

Jackie laughlin

Who approved/ordered the Adare raid? Will he/she/they report to the Gardai and confess? Failing that, will any member of SFIRA report them to the Gardai?

InFront

So, does this move get us closer to a united Ireland? Or is that dream all but gone?

well there's always the rugby and cricket...

If 1916 signified death of the notion of a romantic Ireland, then I think the past few years have brought about the death of a United Ireland, at least politically speaking.

Rock Climber

InFront wrote:

If 1916 signified death of the notion of a romantic Ireland, then I think the past few years have brought about the death of a United Ireland, at least politically speaking.

How so?
I'd disagree.Pragmatism always wins if its used.Get rid of the violence,the reason to hate and see what happens.
We're already at a new dawn in that the likes of Willie McCrea is on the ropes looking for reasons to reject this new dawn.
The lack of reasons to reject it makes him and his ilk look like twats.

Mind you NI is NI and banana skins are bound to appear but at least theres less of them.Soon hopefully there will be none.

LordSutch

folk_smith wrote:

So, does this move get us closer to a united Ireland? Or is that dream all but gone?

The 'Dream' may always be there for some people, but in reality, how would you tell the majority of people living in Northern Ireland that they are no longer British?

Sand

Ah but do you see a democracy with government parties elected by the voters of Northern Ireland because I sure as hell don't, have you seen collusion in our democracy simalar to that of the RUC???

I see a democracy in the north, but I accept your point that organisations like SFIRA arent fit to be part of a proper democracy. In terms of collusion, theres been investigation into "forces within forces" within the Gardai - Donegal for starters. Are you advocating that people should not co-operate with the Gardai? And lets not forget Haugheys little collusion episode. If there is a gap between people and the PSNI its down to decades of SFIRA policy to ensure there was a gap - a policy which included murdering people who co-operated with the police.

For them to lecture from the pulpit on acceptable policing is laughable given that their policing involved balaclavas and sticks with nails driven through them.

So in other words you were incorrect when you said it was been "Shutdown"!

The ARA has been shut down. Ceases to exist. Not in operation. Stopped. Not there. End of. When you can reconcile Hugh Ordes discontent with the move with your "shure theres no difference" view then let me know.

Oh right so you demand action and then when its delivered you slag them off for it,

Id demand, out of general principle, that if a group enters government that they operate like a political party rather than the Westies in suits. I dont think thats a whole hell of a lot to ask, nor do I think SFIRA deserve any credit for meeting basic standards of acceptable behaviour like "Dont murder people", or "Co-operate with the police", or "Dont run a criminal empire". I understand the Westies had issues with acceptable policing as well.

Sinn Fein have delivered, both the Irish and British governments agree on that, as for the DUP well we are still waiting

Delivered what exactly? They wont alert people if they hear dissidents are planning a terrorist attack apparently. Its reassuring that their "historic" movements come with a lot of conditions and sub clauses attached, at least we know some things never change.

As for the DUP I understand their policy has been fairly clear - Theyll go into government with SFIRA when it meets basic standards of behaviour: so basic that co-operating with the police is "historic".

The reality is for the Provos that even assuming the DUP enter powersharing with SFIRA, if a single incident like McCartneys murder [ 70 SFIRA activists, no eyewitnesses] occurs then the DUP will bail. They wont even wait for the courtcase. Theyll collapse the institution and walk. Thats the political reality. Because they dont trust SFIRA, theyve no good reason to trust SFIRA, their voters dont trust SFIRA, and their voters have no good reason to trust SFIRA.

Whatever about SFIRA distrust of the PSNI, Adams and McGuinness have the blood of thousands on their hands and the pain and suffering of tens of thousands on their consciences - assuming they have them. The DUP, nor any unionist party which represents the community Adams and McGuinness attacked, does not win a single vote from being seen close to SFIRA. If a single incident occurs, the instinctive and popular reaction will be to assume SFIRA is up to its old tricks and run for the high ground. Theyve seen what relying on SFIRA to deliver did for Trimble.

The SFIRA have to be boyscouts for a very, very long time. Adams selective attitude to co-operation with the police is not a good start.

I'm sorry, but as someone who has lived in N. Ireland, foreigners like Sand and Jackie Laughlin

Well, Im glad you recognise that much.

If people think that this issue will disappear because Sinn Féin have endorsed the PSNI and have encouraged all members to abide by the UK rule of law, then they're mistaken.

I dont think it will, see above.

Another thing, I find ironic is how certain posters who find all things N. Ireland related so anathematic, can devote so much time and attention to something that doesn't concern them in the slightest. It's rather voyeuristic

When SFIRA leave their traditional UK homeland and travel south into the Republic of Ireland seeking votes, bringing terrorist leaders like Gerry on tour to bask in the great mans limelight, touting their "historic" moments in the United Kingdom then it concerns me.

The more i listen to you Sand the more you begin to sound like Ann Coulter. You might take that as a compliment actually so ill retract it.

Yeah, grand, whatever...

So, does this move get us closer to a united Ireland? Or is that dream all but gone?

Gone. The arrangements in NI are about normalising that part of the UK, not as a prep for unification. The EU has removed any sensible argument for it tbh.

InFront

Rock Climber wrote:

Pragmatism always wins if its used.

I'm not sure what you mean by this, a pragmatic attitude is a positive thing, but surely you see how it involves adjusting one's position, e.g. the "united Ireland" position.
Pragmatism was what created FF out of Sinn Fein, it created CnaG and FG out of the same party. I'm not sure how you think it would strengthen republicanism.

Get rid of the violence,the reason to hate and see what happens.

Yeah, powersharing in Northern Ireland.

Perhaps one day the North will chose to join the south, I don't know. Perhaps one day they will be ruled by Sweden, we don't know that either. I don't see why you think this makes a united Ireland more possible, I think people are bothering less and less with that concept lest it drop them into a different pit of unionism and stir up tensions again. I don't see it as a progressive attitude at all.

Jackie laughlin

Being Irish has nothing to do with the number of political jurisdictions on the island. It is a matter of culture.

SFIRA have created a phenomenon: 26 county nationalism.

FTA69

Jackie laughlin wrote:

SFIRA have created a phenomenon: 26 county nationalism.

There's no such thing, nationalism cannot be limited to regions, or else then we'd have to describe one's pride in one's county as "nationalism" as well. Provincialism or Regionalism would be better terms.

Raskolnikov

sceptre wrote:

How would you rate the rule of law or policing in Northern Ireland at the moment, given that this is the obvious basis for the decision in question?

I accept it, but with extreme reservations. We need to see a more balanced force. Where I lived, Portadown, out of a population of 26,000, there are currently no Catholics serving in the PSNI. Not only that, like I said earlier, some of those officers would have been involved in "policing" the Garavaghy Road during policing. Living in a Loyalist town that's still under LVF influence, I don't think it's unreasonable for Catholics to be sceptical. Another thing that I find unacceptable is the carrying of automatic weapons by the PSNI when on patrols. It's completely unnecessary given the climate we're in.

Jackie laughlin

FTA69,
I can't think of a definition of nationalism that doesn't mention territory. Because of this I tend to use the term "cultural nationalist" for someone not too concerned about jurisdictions.

However, until SF/IRA cranked up their murder machine, I didn't know anyone in the 26 counties who did not want a united Ireland. Nowadays it is common to hear people express a desire that the "6 counties" float away into the Atlantic. Indeed media outlets are well aware that Northern Ireland is a turn off for many people.