What are Irelandoffline's goals

mayhem#

I have been reading this forum for a while now and while there has a been a lot of negative comments posted on the lack of broadband in this country I have seen very few constructive suggestions on how this issue can be solved.
I am aware that Irelandofflline has been lobying for years now but I would really like to know what has been achieved, what the targets are and how they think that this should be achieved.
It might be just me but I haven't been able to find any info on this...

E.

dahamsta

What do you expect to achieve by posting this Evert? Surely it can't be as simple as throwing your toys out of the pram because you got bitchslapped on Damien's blog 16 minutes before?

adam

mayhem#

What do I expect to achieve by posting a question?!
To get an answer, surely that's not too hard to understand?!
Instead I get "bitchslapped" (as you call it) again.
This happens every time that I post a question or remark that might be interpreted as slightly critical of Irelandoffline....
I still have to receive the first constructive reply to any of my postings..

E.

dahamsta

You're one to talk about constructive replies!

mayhem#

Does that mean that I should not expect an answer to my question?

E.

Altreab

mayhem# wrote:

Does that mean that I should not expect an answer to my question?

E.

What di you Suggest Ireland Offline Campaign for?

mayhem#

Altreab wrote:

What di you Suggest Ireland Offline Campaign for?

That has nothing to do with my question.
I know that Ireland Offline campaigns to make broadband available to the masses.
However I assume that there is some kind of charter? I was also wondering how they suggest this broadband expansion should be achieved....
Is there an Ireland Offline website that contains this information?

E.

OfflerCrocGod

mayhem# wrote:

Does that mean that I should not expect an answer to my question?

E.

You can try going to IrelandOffline's website. On the front page one of your questions is answered immediately:

Campaigning For Affordable, Unmetered And Broadband Internet Access In Ireland

As for how it's attempting to achieve it I can't speak for IO but from their front page I can guess they are trying to reach out to the news outlets of this country and informing people of the dire broadband situation this country is experiencing.

mayhem#

OK, thats all very commendable but is there an actual proposal that can be put forward on how the broadband availability should be increased?

E.

SkepticOne

By voting out Dempsey in the next election

jesus_thats_gre

I did know what IOFFL wanted to achieve but I honestly do not know what they are aiming to achieve now.

thebman

mayhem# wrote:

OK, thats all very commendable but is there an actual proposal that can be put forward on how the broadband availability should be increased?

E.

Eh, isn't it the governments job to come up with the plan. Its the lobby groups job to put pressure on the government to come up with and implement the plan.

Also I'm sure some people here have great ideas on how it can be achieved. Its another matter to get the government to listen as if there are no votes in it then there is no point in doing it.

So I guess the other goal of IO is to increase awareness of the current state of Irish broadband.

cgarvey

mayhem# wrote:

I have been reading this forum for a while now and while there has a been a lot of negative comments posted on the lack of broadband in this country I have seen very few constructive suggestions on how this issue can be solved.

Have you any constructive suggestion yourself, or are you just trolling?

mayhem# wrote:

I am aware that Irelandofflline has been lobying for years now but I would really like to know what has been achieved

It's hard to measure what's been achieved, but I think the biggest measure is that IoffL are the first people most journalists contact after a telco PR is published, so that they can get an independent and balanced view. They've been key in bringing BB to the prime time debate slots too, IMO. I take it, from your tone, that you think they've achieved nothing?

mayhem# wrote:

what the targets are and how they think that this should be achieved.

Bear in mind that it's an informal association of completely voluntary members. Hard targets were deliberately not set (by democratic decision at the last AGM). The committee were charged with working on a number of things, such as campaigning for greater availability and continued media presence.

If you've some suggestions, by all means let's hear them. If you prefer to do that in private then there are contact details on the IoffL website.

jwt

what are ioffl doing
what are they doing
what have they done
etc etc

All very third party questions aren't they.

How about .....
what are we going to do
what are we doing
etc etc

IOFFL is not some distant third party organisation.


What we have been doing is...
Countering the spin of comreg claiming bb is great in Ireland.
Meeting, talking to and lobbying anyone involved in Irish BB
Acting as a third party commentator for journalists
Fact checking gov reports
Providing data and information to independant researchers/enquiries (EU, Oireachtas etc)


And to be completely fair, I am up the walls with work at the moment so it's pretty much Damien on his own at the moment.

We are open to ideas, suggestions and comments

My question to all of you is, what are you going to do because right now IOFFL is in neutral coasting along.


@mayhem#

I have been reading this forum for a while now and while there has a been a lot of negative comments posted on the lack of broadband in this country I have seen very few constructive suggestions on how this issue can be solved.
I am aware that Irelandofflline has been lobying for years now but I would really like to know what has been achieved, what the targets are and how they think that this should be achieved.
It might be just me but I haven't been able to find any info on this...

You have seen very few constructive comments because most people are like you. They ask questions, but don't back it up with any concrete proposals.

John

mayhem#

brim4brim wrote:

Eh, isn't it the governments job to come up with the plan. Its the lobby groups job to put pressure on the government to come up with and implement the plan

Well yes it is. However it hasn't happened and judging by the latest developments it is not going to happy any time soon.
So we have two choices really:
1) keep pressuring the government and hope that we will eventually get some results.
2) Look for a viable alternative.

E.

mayhem#

Have you any constructive suggestion yourself, or are you just trolling?

I do actually have suggestions. I also do not see why asking these questions can be seen as trolling. There is a overwhelming tendency to attack anybody that seems to be even slightly critical of Ireland Offline somehow...

It's hard to measure what's been achieved, but I think the biggest measure is that IoffL are the first people most journalists contact after a telco PR is published, so that they can get an independent and balanced view. They've been key in bringing BB to the prime time debate slots too, IMO. I take it, from your tone, that you think they've achieved nothing?

No, it's not that I don't think that they haven't achieved anything. It's just that I recently rturned to ireland and the broadband situation is still nearly as bad as it was when I left 3 years earlier. There are more broadband providers and in the cities there is a reasonable availability. However anyone living in rural areas is still buggered and we're still nearly at the bottom of the European stats.

Bear in mind that it's an informal association of completely voluntary members. Hard targets were deliberately not set (by democratic decision at the last AGM). The committee were charged with working on a number of things, such as campaigning for greater availability and continued media presence.

OK, so there are no "hard" targets. But surely there are some targets?

If you've some suggestions, by all means let's hear them. If you prefer to do that in private then there are contact details on the IoffL website.

I am more than willing to make suggestions (and have done so on several occasions). However rather than go wading in with hob-nailed boots and make suggestions that have already been made I am trying to get an idea of what the current situation is. Hence my post...

E.

mayhem#

You have seen very few constructive comments because most people are like you. They ask questions, but don't back it up with any concrete proposals.

Read my last post and you will see where I am comming from. I am more than willing to help and have made proposals and entered in several discussion. However these have all been at different levels than IOFFL. However I see the validity in an organisation such as IOFFL and would happily assist. However any time I ask a question I get "bitch-slapped" (as Adam so eloquently calls it)...

E.

damien

Evert, I don't believe you posted here for anything but a fight. I dismissed you on my personal website yet again and called your product vapourware. Only after that and after years on boards.ie have you decided to post something about IrelandOffline's structure and aims? Passive agressive bollocks about being unable to criticise won't work. We have plenty of nitpickers in this forum who happily say what they want.

Why are you suddenly now willing to give constructive input after being on boards.ie for years? Have you ever attended an AGM? Have you ever volunteered for the volunteers list? Have you ever posted here about suggestions on how to help?

You are trying to peddle a wireless technology and from your own blog posts you have issues with me and IrelandOffline always being the ones consulted by the press and not talking about alternatives. Oh, and you just happen to offer an alternative. You'd like to get on the air and talk about your "alternative". See here.

I will not start blowing our own trumpet but this proves to me again that Wimax EU is jumping into a huge opening in the market.

The reason we are consulted so much is because we spend an awful amount of time helping the press with their stories and actually breaking down ComReg and DCMNR waffle so they can interpret it. On average we talk someone from the press 2-3 times a day and what most don't know is that we also talk to most of the telcos inc eircom on a very regular basis too. And your talk about hidden agendas and that we have one is wrong, because again we actually send journalists to ComReg and eircom and DCMNR and we help them out on stories that would not benefit us. We have an agenda and it is obvious what it is.

Given that we disclose our bias to the press and because we are doing our something that will not give us a financial gain, we are asked for help a lot.

I have no time for you because you demand IrelandOffline or others do something about an "alternative" but have you done anything to push this along? Guess what, IrelandOffline does not have exclusivity in the media and they don't have the monopoly on lobbying for better broadband. Why not set up your own lobby group? It's quite simple to do. Off you go and show us how it can be done.

Oh and for clarity, here are some of the comments you have left on my personal website in the recent past with your thoughts on IrelandOffline:

Organised consumer affairs groups (be it lobby groups, portal or whatever) will always fall victim to hidden agendas and moderating. Look at Irelandoffline for one. These organisation will have to be managed by “volunteers” and as anyone knows with a bit of common sense: “everybody’s got an agenda”…

I still have to see the first organisation, lobby group or other body that does not fall victim to internal politics eventually.

More constructive input from you here.

jwt

Even Ireland Offline with all their good intentions have achieved very little since they were first formed. Yes, there is more broadband Internet available than 5 years ago but we are still near the bottom of the European statistics and I am fairly sure that the little growth that we have had would have happened anyway. Lobying or no lobying...

Hmmmm while I'm inclined at first glance to kick that comment in the head, it is an interesting statement.

Is IOFFL pi**ing in the wind? Is it a complete waste of time? Is all that effort time and money completely wasted?

Enquiring minds need to know.

John

mayhem#

Evert, I don't believe you posted here for anything but a fight. I dismissed you on my personal website yet again and called your product vapourware.

What product is that?

Only after that and after years on boards.ie have you decided to post something about IrelandOffline's structure and aims? Passive agressive bollocks about being unable to criticise won't work. We have plenty of nitpickers in this forum who happily say what they want.

And you still haven't answered any of my questions...

Why are you suddenly now willing to give constructive input after being on boards.ie for years? Have you ever attended an AGM? Have you ever volunteered for the volunteers list? Have you ever posted here about suggestions on how to help?

Because I have been abroad for years, returned to ireland and the broadband situation is still crap. Read my posts will you...
I have not attended an AGM, or volunteered. However I have (and am) involved in several other initiatives aimed at expanding the availability of broadband in Ireland. Some of these are commercial which seems to be a huge problem for you. Do you expect broadband to become availble through a charitable and "not for profit" organisation?

You are trying to peddle a wireless technology and from your own blog posts you have issues with me and IrelandOffline always being the ones consulted by the press and not talking about alternatives. Oh, and you just happen to offer an alternative. You'd like to get on the air and talk about your "alternative". See here.

Peddle? Explain yourself?
I work for a company that is involved in broadband. Your previous comments refer to this as vapourware, however you have still to provide any arguments for that comment.
And yes I want to speak about this (and have on occasions). Contrary to your constant complaining about the current situation in regards to broadband I actually have some constructive suggestions on how to resolve the situation. I still have to hear the first constructive comment from IOFFL. I might have missed it hence I posted here asking for someone to clarify IOFFL's approach and targets.
Look what happens...

The reason we are consulted so much is because we spend an awful amount of time helping the press with their stories and actually breaking down ComReg and DCMNR waffle so they can interpret it. On average we talk someone from the press 2-3 times a day and what most don't know is that we also talk to most of the telcos inc eircom on a very regular basis too. And your talk about hidden agendas and that we have one is wrong, because again we actually send journalists to ComReg and eircom and DCMNR and we help them out on stories that would not benefit us. We have an agenda and it is obvious what it is.

And what have you actually achieved doing this? I'm not saying that IOFFL hasn't achieved anything, I would just like someone to point out to me what they have actually achieved..

Given that we disclose our bias to the press and because we are doing our something that will not give us a financial gain, we are asked for help a lot.

And how has that improved the availability of broadband. After all that is your target, isn't it?

I have no time for you because you demand IrelandOffline or others do something about an "alternative" but have you done anything to push this along? Guess what, IrelandOffline does not have exclusivity in the media and they don't have the monopoly on lobbying for better broadband. Why not set up your own lobby group? It's quite simple to do. Off you go and show us how it can be done.

I am actually doing something and talking to people within the industry. However I also am aware that more than talking and media exposure is needed hence I am actually taking steps (through my company) to bring broadband to the rural areas in Ireland. And before you start spouting about "vapourware" I would like you to explain what you mean by that comment and what it is based on.

Oh and for clarity, here are some of the comments you have left on my personal website in the recent past with your thoughts on IrelandOffline:
More constructive input from you here.

[/quote]

For "clarity" I also suggest that people note the lack of answers to any of my questions...

E.

mayhem#

jwt wrote:

Hmmmm while I'm inclined at first glance to kick that comment in the head, it is an interesting statement.

Is IOFFL pi**ing in the wind? Is it a complete waste of time? Is all that effort time and money completely wasted?

Enquiring minds need to know.

John

Exactly, I might very well be wrong in stating that.
But if I am why not show me *why* I am wrong instead of throwing a tantrum, which is what's happening now...

E.

damien

mayhem# wrote:

And you still haven't answered any of my questions...

It's this simple Evert. You had your ego bruised once again by me. You now need to retake some power to satisfy said ego. You come onto IrelandOfflne and are demanding of IrelandOffline that we explain ourselves to you. Even if my explanation is satisfactory, you will feel somewhat more in control. If it is unsatisfactory, you will feel you have gained more power back. If If I don't answer at all, well let's see what happens.

mayhem#

Damien, it takes more that your "bitch-slapping" to bruise my ego.
Why don't you do something constructive and answer my questions?
Your behaviour smells of "the eircom school of customer service".
Please answer the questions instead of dragging on the argument I see no point in continuing this otherwise.

E.

P.S. if you want to have a constructive discussion in private you cam always email, skype or call me. I am more than happy to help IOFFL in what they are doing (but it would be nice to get an update of their efforts and targets).

tuxy

In other news Joey O'Connor has a sale on 56k modems, this week only!

lucernarian

Sadly for all concerned, we well know that an ego like yours is not easy to knock down. I don't even know you, yet you have managed to portray yourself as a pompous and blustering chatter with much to ask and not so much to contribute.

I think that's some achievement in 11 posts. It's a fine measure of your argument to see you "contribute" to the forum in a couple of days, while the rest of the IOFFL committee and many of its members have been here for 2 years or more, myself included.:)

It is totally disingenuous to offer help to IO. You have questioned their point in existing.

A jumped-up person like yourself, Mr. Mayhem, is not what IO should have helping them.

Oh and guess what, no-one wants an argument with you. You are of no consequence to me. You will never be. We have seen your money and status-driven agenda, which thankfully the main people in IO do not have. You should be thankful that your drivel got a response at all.

And as for IO's contributions to the country as a whole, I would point to the fact that IO have led the way in campaigning for internet in this country for several years. They have made the real differences. It was IO's pressure which led to the FRIACO packages, saving thousands upon thousands of internet users money. The GBS was an IO idea, though sadly it got lost among the bueraucracy minefield.

And perhaps most impressively of all, eircom will at least consider my line for broadband when I was explicitly told by eircom staff that I would not get broadband. It was IO who got eircom to take the finger out of their backside and make the extra effort to get engineers to make DSL work. 100,000 extra lines passing for broadband.

Oh wait, that's bad news for wireless vendors, isn't it? Ah well, the joys of an unbiased viewpoint.

cgarvey

mayhem# wrote:

I do actually have suggestions. I also do not see why asking these questions can be seen as trolling.

Right, I gave you the benefit of the doubt!

2 things:
1) Read the charter before posting here again, please. Specifically the bit about full disclosure.
2) Don't contribute to this debate any further unless you have some solid suggestion. You've made your point (and the topic of the debate is fully acceptable, critical of IoffL or not), and now you're just trolling, in my opinion.

If you can satisfy both of those, then I'd love to hear more from you (you might be the injection of energy IoffL may need?). If you have any problem with those, PM myself or seamus (not drag out the argument here).

To everyone else, enough of the slagging please. Debate the topic, or don't post, thanks.

mayhem#

cgarvey wrote:

Right, I gave you the benefit of the doubt!

2 things:
1) Read the charter before posting here again, please. Specifically the bit about full disclosure.
2) Don't contribute to this debate any further unless you have some solid suggestion. You've made your point (and the topic of the debate is fully acceptable, critical of IoffL or not), and now you're just trolling, in my opinion.

If you can satisfy both of those, then I'd love to hear more from you (you might be the injection of energy IoffL may need?). If you have any problem with those, PM myself or seamus (not drag out the argument here).

To everyone else, enough of the slagging please. Debate the topic, or don't post, thanks.

OK, glad that finally someone is willing to post a constructive reply.
I will contact you via PM to discuss my suggestions further as I am not in the position to dicsuss certain matters in public.

As a last comemnt I would just like to quote from the charter:

Attacks against the person
Despite this being a free public forum, what is said here reflects directly on IrelandOffline and Boards.ie. As such, we would ask that posters remain respectful in their opinions when discussing organisations or their employees. Comments which could be construed as false, libellous or offensive will result in posts being deleted or amended and the poster banned.

E.

SkepticOne

In answer to the OP's question:

The goal of IO is to have broadband at an affordable price made available to everyone that wants it.

Solair

Ireland Off Line's had a huge impact in keeping media attention focused on the poor state of broadband in this country and has done a lot to educate members of the media about the issues underlying the current situation - both technical and commercial.

This forum has been a great way of collecting information about the state of affairs in the Irish broadband market from a consumer perspective. There are many frustrated souls out there who need to vent and seek advice and this has been somewhere they've been able to do that.

The forum's also served to educate many members of the public, IT professionals, journalists and others who have an interest in the subject.

I think it's totally unfair to suggest that what's been going on in Ireland Offline's been a waste of time.

Many people have been either directly involved with the committee and via formal channels or, having learned from the discussions and other material produced by Ireland OffLine have made direct representations themselves to TDs, Dail candidates, ComReg, government officials etc.

There has been plenty of very constructive debate on these forums over the years too. Many times, people have made very serious suggestions as to how this situation could be resolved. People have gathered data, done comparisions with other markets with better regulation and functioning broadband markets.

I don't see why anyone would draw Ireland Offline's motives or objectives into question.

There are many potential sollutions to this problem, but if people don't keep chipping away at the TDs and providing the flow of information to journalists the broadband situation in Ireland will never improve.

It's how democracy works-
Education and grass roots lobbying can be extremely effective.

cgarvey

mayhem# wrote:

I will contact you via PM to discuss my suggestions further as I am not in the position to dicsuss certain matters in public.

Either...
a) discuss your suggestions with IoffL membership (i.e. here "in public"), or
b) discuss with the IoffL committee (email details on the website) or
c) shut up / face ban (because you have trolled enough already)

I'm not on the committee, so there's no point in PMing me, and there's no need to quote the charter to me; I co-wrote it.

Ta, .cg

mayhem#

cgarvey wrote:

I'm not on the committee, so there's no point in PMing me

Aaah right, you didn't post this either:

PM myself or seamus (not drag out the argument here).

E.

cgarvey

mayhem# wrote:

Aaah right, you didn't post this either

I did, but when taken out of context like that it means something completely different.

Anyway, I've tried the nice approach, but you've offered no meaningful debate (other than the initial topic) and just continued to troll. You don't have to agree about the troll bit (feel free to take it up in the feedback forum if you don't). You're now banned from this forum.

bushy...

I was waiting to see what rucksack load of gear was on special offer this week...if your lucky it will actually exist

dahamsta

<applause>

choicer

Hi all..first post for me and just read this entire one..lovely stuff !
Personally I think IO is great and have been helped by one of its members on several occassions. Its great to have somewhere to go if you need answers other than relying on "your friends sisters fellas dad who knows about broadband" for answers.

Keep up the good work.

Hacketry

As a long-time observer of Ireland Offline I'll throw my tuppence-worth in.

IoL does do fantatsic work in countering official spin and performs an important democratic function in bringing to public attention important issues which might not otherwise receive proper treatment in the (mostly) resource-poor Irish media.

At the same time, I think offering constructive alternatives to solve the broadband problem is a worthwile approach rather than only concentrating on the negatives.

I think the MANs is a good example of this. I've always been a bit sceptical of the whole MANs project, but surely we can find some use for them. I hope so anyway as they've sucked up a lot of tax payers' money.

Does anyone have any new ideas?

damien

Hacketry wrote:

Does anyone have any new ideas?

Why go away and once again reinvent the wheel? The Oireachtas Committee's report was endorsed by us. We point to that as the solution.

jwt

March 2005
http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2005/03/21/story873277853.asp

Ireland Offline spokesman Aidan Whyte said Ireland would miss out on foreign investment and jobs unless recommendations by an Oireachtas committee and state research agency Forfás were implemented.

March 2005
http://www.electricnews.net/news.html?code=9594833

Finally, IrelandOffline claims that until the recommendations of the Oireachtas Report on Broadband and the similar Forfas report on broadband are implemented, Ireland is going to remain backward when it comes to broadband provision.

October 2006
http://www.enn.ie/blog/index.html?/archives/149-Ireland-slumps-again-in-latest-broadband-tables.html

As Chairman of Ireland Offline, Damien Mulley, puts it, "The Government is wilfully ignoring valid recommendations from Forfas, the Oireachtas and the Information Society Commission while at the same time inventing meaningless broadband targets to make it look like Ireland is achieving something.

And its something Damien and I have repeated as nauseum in print, radio and TV.

We have workable solutions. We don't have solutions that are being worked.

John

P.S. Found this link
http://www.euser-eu.org/eUSER_eLearningCountryBrief.asp?CaseID=2247&CaseTitleID=1088&MenuID=117 giving details from 2004/5 of BB penetration etc

About the eUSER project
One of the main perspectives presented within the eEurope 2005 action plan is to make “modern online public services” available to all citizens in the European Union.

The eUSER project will enhance the capacity of the IST programme to achieve its goals in relation to stimulating the availability and usage of useful and easy to use online public services.

We do this by addressing user needs that cut across different IST fields, including different application and service domains and different technology fields.

The focus of the eUSER project will be on online public services in the following services domains:
eGovernment
eHealth
eLearning
and on how the perspective of putting the user at the centre in the designing and delivery of online services and content can be met.

The focus will be on the needs of citizens as users of online public services in their interactions with public administrations, in the management of their health and in furthering their education and developing their skills.

Attention will be given to supporting better practice both in addressing generic user issues that apply across the user population and in addressing the diversity of specific user issues that arise for particular sub-groups

SkepticOne

jwt wrote:

October 2006
http://www.enn.ie/blog/index.html?/a...nd-tables.html
Quote:
As Chairman of Ireland Offline, Damien Mulley, puts it, "The Government is wilfully ignoring valid recommendations from Forfas, the Oireachtas and the Information Society Commission while at the same time inventing meaningless broadband targets to make it look like Ireland is achieving something.
And its something Damien and I have repeated as nauseum in print, radio and TV.

We have workable solutions. We don't have solutions that are being worked.

John

To be honest, I would be surprised if that approach would work. Let me be clear that I am not criticising the efforts of IO. After all, I am not doing the work.

But I think in order to persuade the likes of DCMNR, you need to develop a coherent explanation of why things are wrong and what, in concrete terms, needs to be done. These reports can then be used to back up your recommendations rather than be the recommendations themselves.

jwt

I think you should read the reports. They contain very simple coherent 1, 2, 3 type steps towards getting bb for everyone.

They aren't just reports, they also contain recommendations and procedures.

It is those that we support (as well as most of the general reporting)

Otherwise we would be just reiterating other peoples recommendations and claiming them as our own.


regards


John

SkepticOne

What does IO think DCMNR should do to achieve its goal of broadband for everyone that want's it?

With respect, the answer to this should not be "implement report X, Y or Z". The reports may be great altogether but it doesn't matter.

What does that mean to a journalist or member of the public? How does it demonstrate that you understand the issues?

Plus, it gives some minister the opportunity to give some waffly answer since it is unlikely that the journalist will have read those reports in detail.

You, IO, should be able to say in ordinary English exactly what you think DCM,NR or some other agency should do in order to achieve the aims of IO. You need to be able to explain why you think these things should be done, if necessary, backing your case up with these the appropriate bits of these reports.

This would demonstrate that you have actually thought about the problem.


What does that mean to a journalist or member of the public? How does it demonstrate that you understand the issues?

All the above, imho.