Diesel Cars - A false Economy???

Dundhoone

I've a similar post on askaboutmoney, but im not sparking much debate, so I'll open it up to you folks.

Last year I did 30k miles, between work commute, work and everything else.
I drive a 1.4 l petrol golf which does about 44 miles to the gallon, or about 6.4l/100km

Everyone I talk to tells me I should buy a diesel engine.
Should I?

I love my golf, and don’t feel the need to change the brand or model.
So say I just go for the same car, trim but with a diesel engine.

On the plus side, I save on fuel.

48,000km /yr on my 1.4l will be 3072litres of fuel or at 1.05c/l that will cost €3225
on the 1.9l diesel it would be 2400litres or at 1.05c/l cost €2520

A saving of €705/yr.:)

On the downside,
My insurance will increase by €300/yr
And motor tax increases from €292 to €511, an increase of €219/yr

The car costs in the region of €29,000 as opposed to €23,000 for the 1.4 l.

So now im down €519 + say 6k/3years = €2,500/yr.:(

did a bit of research on residuals. The following are averages from prices on car buyers guide, so obviously trade in values would be a bit lower. This is fairly approximate, from maybe 4 cars in each group with varying mileage, but it gives an idea. 2006 TDi 5dr comfortline - at approx 25000 2005 TDi 5dr comfortline - at approx 23500 2004 TDi 5dr comfortline - at approx 18500 So with a retail of 28500, it will have lost approx 10,000 over three years. Its pretty much the same as what im being offered for my 3 year old 1.4 petrol, 23k original price and now worth 14-15k. So is the argument that diesels hold their value valid??? no from those prices.

Is this just something that used to be relevant when there was a price difference between petrol and diesel, and is so bet into us that we still hang onto something that no longer true?????

Your comments please!!!!

Anan1

You're comparing a 1.4 petrol to a 1.9TDI. A fairer comparison would be the 1.6FSI petrol to the 1.9TDI.

Dundhoone

I can see your point - similar BHP.

I have a 1.4 though and was looking at a diesel. Im now trying to justify buying a diesel over a new 1.4 - and just on an economical basis.

That said , I'll look at the 1.6 and do a repost, if I get some interest in the thread.

I'd like to get comments form diesel owners, about why they went diesel.

kdouglas

i guess in the "old days" when diesel was like 10c cheaper it probably saved alot more but probably not much anymore, as pointed out though 1.4 petrol != 1.9TDI

OT: why did diesel and petrol prices level-off anyway?

fletch

You aren't taking into consideration the performance advantage the 1.9 is going to have over the 1.4.

peasant

Or you could actually compare your 1.4 petrol to a new generation "small" diesel ...say a 1.4 HDI Peugeot 307 or a 1.6 Citroen/Ford/Opel.

Tax difference wouldn't be there / as big and insurance shouldn't be higher either

unkel

A few things spring to mind

The Golf ain't the best example. Most of what you loose is down to extra tax and insurance. This loss would be a lot smaller if you could compare with a car with a 1.6 diesel engine or even a 1.3 or 1.4 diesel. But we'll go with it anyway

First a new Golf 1.9 diesel comfortline lists at €26.7k, not €29k

A second hand Golf 1.4 petrol is worth ridiculous money, but a 3 year old one with low mileage is not worth €15k. But let's go with your figures and assume that depreciation is about the same amount over 3 years

Dundhoone wrote:

So now im down €519 + say 6k/3years = €2,500/yr.:(

It goes wrong there. If you need to borrow the full amount of the car and pay it back over three years, the average amount of loan outstanding on the diesel would be €1.85k more than on the petrol (€26.7k-€23k)/2. With an loan interest rate of 7% that would cost you €130 per annum extra

Then there's the fact that with your mileage a 3 year old Golf petrol approaching 100k miles will be nigh impossible to sell in this country. The diesel will be a lot easier to sell

Another point is that if you can do 6.4l/100 in the petrol Golf (the official mix is 6.9l), surely you can do 4.6l in the diesel (official mix is 5.0l). That's another €200 per year

Adding up the figures:

You save €705 + €200 = €905
You loose €519 + €130 = €619

Conclusion: A net saving of nearly €300 every year and ending up with a car that's in demand rather than a car no one will touch

And you'll be driving a faster more powerful car with more torque on top of that

In your case there's a clear winner alright: diesel

Rudolph Claus

How you could do 30k miles a year in a boring/dead/basic/crap/over-rated 1.4L golf(prob the slowest 1.4L car going) is beyond me. Do you not value your sanity? Do yourself a favour and get the Tdi.

Interesting topic.

The sensible side of me thinks Fiat are on to Something with their fantastic small diesel multijet engines.

But the silly side of me is buying a 6 pot petrol car next.

So I guess it depends what you prefer to drive.

unkel

ronoc wrote:

The sensible side of me thinks Fiat are on to Something with their fantastic small diesel multijet engines

FIAT have been on to Something for a decade now. First manufacturer to bring the common rail to market in '97, even before BMW. The Japanese are still out of breath after only recently finding out what common rail meant, copying it like bejaysis and sticking it into their cars for the European market

DublinWriter

Anan1 wrote:

You're comparing a 1.4 petrol to a 1.9TDI. A fairer comparison would be the 1.6FSI petrol to the 1.9TDI.

Exactly. Compare like with like. A better diesel comparison would be the Toyota 1.4L hybrid D4D engine.

mukki

Dundhoone wrote:

I love my golf, and don’t feel the need to change the brand or model. So say I just go for the same car, trim but with a diesel engine.

drive the 1.9 tdi for a month

overtake cars up hills
overtake on about 200yards of road
extra people in the car,altitude or engine rpm doesn't effect acceleration
never stalling
going over 800km without stoping for fuel



then see how much you love your 1.4 petrol

zuutroy

Diesel is 30c a litre cheaer here.:eek: Most people have diesels

Dundhoone

Thanks to everyone for the comments, and to unkle for the reasoned arguement.

First remember that I am comparing an 80bhp 1.4 petrol to a 90bhp 1.9 diesel above. I accept the point that comparing the 1.6 (102bhp) petrol to the 1.9 (105bhp) would be more accurate. I also accept that I am comparing a brand and model which holds its value well.

unkel wrote:

A few things spring to mind
First a new Golf 1.9 diesel comfortline lists at €26.7k, not €29k

Okay true, I should have been more specific. I am comparing a 5dr sportline in both. Cost on volkswagen website is €27.5k and €28.2k at dealership.

unkel wrote:

A second hand Golf 1.4 petrol is worth ridiculous money, but a 3 year old one with low mileage is not worth €15k. But let's go with your figures and assume that depreciation is about the same amount over 3 years

Okay, I've gotten "allowences" off varying between 15k and 14k from 3 dealers , 1 vw, 2 ford (where I was looking at the 1.6 diesel)
Car is probably worth 13k or thereabouts in private sale.

unkel wrote:

It goes wrong there. If you need to borrow the full amount of the car and pay it back over three years, the average amount of loan outstanding on the diesel would be €1.85k more than on the petrol (€26.7k-€23k)/2. With an loan interest rate of 7% that would cost you €130 per annum extra

What I was on about was the additional cost of the car over an average of a 3 year ownership period. Despite the extra 130/yr , surely you still have more to repay at the end of the day? which would be fine if you had similar depreciation between the two engine types, but the 1.4 petrol is such a popular car it seems to hold value slightly better?

unkel wrote:

Then there's the fact that with your mileage a 3 year old Golf petrol approaching 100k miles will be nigh impossible to sell in this country. The diesel will be a lot easier to sell
Another point is that if you can do 6.4l/100 in the petrol Golf (the official mix is 6.9l), surely you can do 4.6l in the diesel (official mix is 5.0l). That's another €200 per year

okay cant really see anything wrong with your reasoning there.

unkel wrote:

Conclusion: A net saving of nearly €300 every year and ending up with a car that's in demand rather than a car no one will touch

And you'll be driving a faster more powerful car with more torque on top of that

Just what I wanted to hear:D

Mukki and Nuttzzy.......lol:D what can I say....I'm not an acceleration freak!!

unkel

Dundhoone wrote:

I am comparing a 5dr sportline in both

In your OP you mentioned 5dr comfortline. Three times!

Dundhoone wrote:

the 1.4 petrol is such a popular car it seems to hold value slightly better?

It is very popular, but so is the diesel. I reckon depreciation over 3 years and 90k miles is similar enough between the two

And what I said about the interest is only relevant if you have to take out a loan. If you finance from SSIA money (which instead of spending on a car, you could put in a savings account) you can halve that figure for extra interest payable on the diesel

Dundhoone

Errr... yes, so I did, but it was ony because that was the closest to sportline i could find on CBG for prices...
I was thinking sportline.......:o

You mean to tell me you couldnt read my mind....???? I thought mods were all powerful:D

Biro

Diesel is a false economy for most people. If you're doing less than 20,000 miles per year then it definately is a false economy. What's leveling it out is that people recently are beginning to go all out on a diesel buying sproi. This will help the residual values which means that your initial outlay is somewhat recouperated when you sell. But they are a lot dearer than the petrol equivalents, partly due to the extra money needed to develop them.
The first thing to note is that it would be a mistake to buy a diesel just because you're doing a lot of miles in a 1.4 petrol. That would mean you're spending money you didn't intend to spend. It would make more sense to add a diesel to your option list when you're considering trading up anyway.
The second thing is that what would be interesting is to take a 1.4 petrol owner, and calculate the cost of fuel, tyres, service costs, depreciation, tax and insurance over a two year ownership with x amount of miles and compare that to the same time frame on a diesel. To do that you'd really need to trade in at around the same time and see what you get on a trade in rather than guessing by what people are looking for in the trader.

HashSlinging

Maybe the best option for you would be the 1.4 TSI (140bhp) its got a turbo charger and a supercharger, and is fairly good petrol/tax/insurance..and good value for money IMO.

I love the TSi sounds like Tissy as in "dont get yourself in a tissy".
ahah

Sizzler

I agree with previous posters, you arent comparing like with like. I had a 1.6 petrol which was a guzzler on city driving and was costing me c.€50 a week.
Changed it to a Passat TDi which was €120'ish dearer on tax a year and €100 more on my insurance in the initial year (has since dropped by €100) and on same said €50 I get 160 miles more

Regardless of the diesel price you are always going to get more bang for your buck and theres also the performance factor too, especially when coming from a petrol under 1.6.

Anyway thats just my experience.

Anan1

HashSlinging wrote:

Maybe the best option for you would be the 1.4 TSI (140bhp) its got a turbo charger and a supercharger, and is fairly good petrol/tax/insurance..and good value for money IMO.

But the OP appears to be quite happy with the performance of his standard 1.4 petrol Golf? If anything he wants lower running costs, not higher!

Dundhoone

Anan is correct here

While I started the thread to open a debate on diesel economy, it was because I have a choice to make.

As stated I have a 2004 golf 1.4 sportline . I put 30k miles on it this year.
I will do similar mileage per year over the next 2-3 years. Its worth 13k ish now.
In twelve months time, with 80k miles on teh clock , it will be hard to sell.

I was trying to decide whether to go the extra 5k ish to buy a new 1.9 golf diesel sportline or just buy a new 1.4.

Im starting to come around to another idea. I think people who do high mileage in a year change the car EVERY year. I see a lot of relatively high mile 2006 passats etc on cbg. Looks like they change quickly, and spend the 3-4k difference every year, rather than the 12-14k every three years. Beats having a 3 yr old with 90k miles on teh clock I suppose.

The other alternative is to buy a second hand and drive it till the wheels fall off.

prospect

My answer to you is that it may be false economy in your particular situation.
However if you are willing to change to a 1.6Hdi engine (peugeot/ford & mazda) you would probably see a saving as the increase in tax would be small, and there would probably be little difference in insurance.

P.

Cyrus

at the poster who mentioned the new 1.4 vw engine its actually 170bhp iirc not 140 (at least it is in the golf gt)

what i find funny is the fact that 90% of people on this forum (and around ireland in general) believe that any VAG fitted with the 1.9tdi engine is a rocket, even more so if its the 130bhp version with the red d and red i

fletch

Cyrus wrote:

at the poster who mentioned the new 1.4 vw engine its actually 170bhp iirc not 140 (at least it is in the golf gt)

You sure? I don't see the GT on the VW Ireland site.
Edit: Found it

9. New Golf V 1.4 SPORTLINE 5DR TSI 140BHP 1.4/1390 € 26,530
10. New Golf V 1.4 SPORTLINE 5DR TSI DSG 140BHP

Cyrus

thats obviosly diff from gt, detuned maybe

http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/new_cars/golf/gt

speedfreak

Cyrus wrote:

at the poster who mentioned the new 1.4 vw engine its actually 170bhp iirc not 140 (at least it is in the golf gt)

what i find funny is the fact that 90% of people on this forum (and around ireland in general) believe that any VAG fitted with the 1.9tdi engine is a rocket, even more so if its the 130bhp version with the red d and red i

yep the 105 bhp tdi (current 1.9) is desperate. the old 130 1.9 was lively and perfect for this ridiculous CC based VRT country. The 2.0 140bhp TDI is nice, 170bhp version nicer but too much torque through front wheels only. OP should look at Peugeot / ford smaller CC diesels. until VRT/TAX system changes to CO2 based system, the smaller the CC the better!

ps there are 2 TSI engines 140 and 170 GT.

maidhc

Cyrus wrote:

what i find funny is the fact that 90% of people on this forum (and around ireland in general) believe that any VAG fitted with the 1.9tdi engine is a rocket, even more so if its the 130bhp version with the red d and red i

Relative to a 1.4 petrol, it probably is.

HashSlinging

Cyrus wrote:

at the poster who mentioned the new 1.4 vw engine its actually 170bhp iirc not 140 (at least it is in the golf gt)

But the poster was referring to the 1.4TSi (dont get yourself in a Tissy now) not the GT.

Eoin

maidhc wrote:

Relative to a 1.4 petrol, it probably is.

Especially a 1.4 petrol Golf

Cyrus

HashSlinging wrote:

But the poster was referring to the 1.4TSi (dont get yourself in a Tissy now) not the GT.

but he also mentioned a supercharger and a turbo, does the 140bhp have these?? maybe it does, im confused, prob same engine in a lower state of tune

bazz26

I think it is just a different ECU mapping. The 1.4 TFSi engine has both a turbo charger and supercharger compressor.

unkel

Cyrus wrote:

prob same engine in a lower state of tune

That's it afaik. As bazz26 said, both have a turbo and a super charger

JHMEG

Cyrus wrote:

what i find funny is the fact that 90% of people on this forum (and around ireland in general) believe that any VAG fitted with the 1.9tdi engine is a rocket, even more so if its the 130bhp version with the red d and red i

Jeez thank God someone said that! I nearly thought I was on my own here in thinking they have the acceleration, handling, and soundtrack of an Emerald Star cruiser on the river Shannon.

mukki

not being rude.....

but what does VAG mean

air

Volkswagen Audi/Auto Group - Cars from Volskwagen, Audi, Seat, Skoda, Bently, Lamborghini etc - check out wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Group

BostonB

JHMEG wrote:

Jeez thank God someone said that! I nearly thought I was on my own here in thinking they have the acceleration, handling, and soundtrack of an Emerald Star cruiser on the river Shannon.

Obviously you've never been to Singapore or driven a 1.9D Vento. I used to get seasick in one even when it wasn't moving. Hard to know when it was moving, but you get the point.

Biro

JHMEG wrote:

Jeez thank God someone said that! I nearly thought I was on my own here in thinking they have the acceleration, handling, and soundtrack of an Emerald Star cruiser on the river Shannon.

Its true. There must be some amount of bitter rockets in NASA and even in Russia after being compared to a 1.9 diesel.

Dundhoone

AWH feck.

So I wont even notice a tiny bit of performance improvement over my basic 1.4 ??

The 1.4 always has enough to get me around stuff when I need it. Why would I want a second hand russian rocket anyways???

The emerald star gets you there, in a refined classy and relaxed manner:p

HashSlinging

A friend of mine has been given a free '99 VW passat with 250k on the clock, its from a taxi driving friend who just got a mondeo.

All it needs is a service and an NCT. Now that’s good economics..


Some people!

Biro

Dundhoone wrote:

AWH feck.

So I wont even notice a tiny bit of performance improvement over my basic 1.4 ??

The 1.4 always has enough to get me around stuff when I need it. Why would I want a second hand russian rocket anyways???

The emerald star gets you there, in a refined classy and relaxed manner:p

Well... 1.9tdi isn't slow, it's just nothing like a "rocket". The 1.4 however, now thats a new level of relaxed pace! It's a remarkable engine that. Remarkable how it's still around when some manufacturers were getting more power and similar economy from a 1.4 back in 1996 and have retired such engines 6 years ago!