should raise amounts vary based on your position in cash games?

Gholimoli

pretty much as the title suggests.
im just wondering if people think they should have different raise amounts based on their position on the table .
i like to hear arguments for both (taking position in to effect or not).

Ste05

Yep, it's the only thing that makes me vary my PF raise amount.

EP, to keep the pot manageable later while potentially OOP in the hand, there is also extra strength shown by my EP raise. So I make it 3-4BB's total.

In position I make it 4-5BB's, to show extra strength and to make a larger pot while in position.

There are exceptions based on history and table dynamics but this is my standard for opening a pot.

JoeyJJ

I was playing in the SE cash game a couple of weeks ago and was UTG+2, I raised to 7euro with AA. Player next to me went all in for 27, folded around to BB who made it 80. I instantly raised all in for 200 odd. I got paid well on this hand.

Would I have got as much action if I was seated between the Push for 27 and BB and raised into BB? Probably as he was a gambler who wouldn't fold AQ.

HiCloy

Ste05 wrote:

Yep, it's the only thing that makes me vary my PF raise amount.

EP, to keep the pot manageable later while potentially OOP in the hand, there is also extra strength shown by my EP raise. So I make it 3-4BB's total.

In position I make it 4-5BB's, to show extra strength and to make a larger pot while in position.

There are exceptions based on history and table dynamics but this is my standard for opening a pot.

I do the opposite playing online full ring - raise more in EP than LP. I feel if I make a 2/3 BB raise from EP I could well face a few callers from OOP, so generally raise 4BB. If folded to me in LP I don't need to raise as much, generally 2/3 BB, unless anyone who will have position on me after the flop is very likely to call a smaller raise.

From the SB it depends a lot on the opponent.

The other exception is to raise more if someone limps ahead of me.

phantom_lord

HiCloy wrote:

I do the opposite playing online full ring - raise more in EP than LP. I feel if I make a 2/3 BB raise from EP I could well face a few callers from OOP, so generally raise 4BB. If folded to me in LP I don't need to raise as much, generally 2/3 BB, unless anyone who will have position on me after the flop is very likely to call a smaller raise.

you want to play big pots in position and small ones out of position. not the other way round.

ocallagh

I don't actually change much depending on position but will be interested to read the replies in this thread.

OT: I generally make it 3.5BBs with no limpers, and add 1BB for every limper. If the tables is playing loose and VPIP is high I increase my PFR, sometimes up to as much as 6BBs +1 for every limper, so if I was to increase my PFR in some positions it might be too high.

Gholimoli

HiCloy wrote:

I do the opposite playing online full ring - raise more in EP than LP. I feel if I make a 2/3 BB raise from EP I could well face a few callers from OOP, so generally raise 4BB. If folded to me in LP I don't need to raise as much, generally 2/3 BB, unless anyone who will have position on me after the flop is very likely to call a smaller raise.

From the SB it depends a lot on the opponent.

The other exception is to raise more if someone limps ahead of me.

This is very bad strategy,
To say I raise more from EP because I feel I get called more often if I raise less is incorrect.

You may be getting called more because you are playing in a loose game in tat case you need to make other adjustments in order to punish this looseness.
As Ste said when raising from EP you have a lot more ppl playing behind you increasing the chance of some1 having a stronger hand than yours and also you will have to play a bigger pot out of position.
In late position this effect reverses to you advantage thus making it profitable to raise more.
For the above reasons I think raise amount should indeed vary based on position and again it would be incorrect to raise the same amount from different positions.
But this is just my take on it so am hoping others would jump in with different arguments.

gocall01

Correct me if I am wrong but on pok3rplaya's video he opened for 4XBB from every position.
Probably am wrong, must watch it again.

Gholimoli

gocall01 wrote:

Correct me if I am wrong but on pok3rplaya's video he opened for 4XBB from every position.
Probably am wrong, must watch it again.

havent watched the video but as i said i think they should differ.

phantom_lord

Is this not something that's more applicable to fr than 6max? Don't think you'd be doing a lot wrong not adjusting raises for position at 6max

HiCloy

Gholimoli wrote:

This is very bad strategy,
To say I raise more from EP because I feel I get called more often if I raise less is incorrect.

You may be getting called more because you are playing in a loose game in tat case you need to make other adjustments in order to punish this looseness.
As Ste said when raising from EP you have a lot more ppl playing behind you increasing the chance of some1 having a stronger hand than yours and also you will have to play a bigger pot out of position.
In late position this effect reverses to you advantage thus making it profitable to raise more.

I agree with most of what you're saying.

I'm referring to playing against very loose, passive players - other than selecting my tables/seats better to have position on them, I felt it was the best way to go. Playing QQ from OOP against 4 callers is not good.

I should probably just raise more from late position, not less from early position.

Gholimoli

HiCloy wrote:

I agree with most of what you're saying.

I'm referring to playing against very loose, passive players - other than selecting my tables/seats better to have position on them, I felt it was the best way to go. Playing QQ from OOP against 4 callers is not good.

I should probably just raise more from late position, not less from early position.

If you are playing on a loose table then play less hands and tighten up but open the pot for more than usual when you do decide to play.
For example if you find that a lot of people are cold calling a lot of raises the open for 5-7BB from EP instead of 3BB with premium hands such as QQ+.
But your not raising more here because you are EP and you don’t want a caller.
You are raising more because you want a caller and generally your range of hands is much stronger than the range of the caller’s hand.

Mr. Flibble

Wouldn't you want to play more flops in position and therefore reduce your raise size preflop to induce callers?

If re-raising especially I think people will & should generally raise more OOP than in position as you don't want to draw cheaply at you and have positional advantage after the flop.

jimbling

Raise amounts should vary due to Position. It's not an unwritten rule or anything... and it wont hurt you too much if you don't.... but there are definite reasons to alter amounts due to position.

Mr. Flibble

jimbling wrote:

Raise amounts should vary due to Position. It's not an unwritten rule or anything... and it wont hurt you too much if you don't.... but there are definite reasons to alter amounts due to position.

So...will you tell us them?

Should you take the HiCloy road and charge people more to have position on you or try to keep the pot small (yet still raise...) when OOP?

BigCityBanker

Just keep hitting the "4X" button on Tribecca.

phantom_lord

BigCityBanker wrote:

Just keep hitting the "4X" button on Tribecca.

yeah, that works pretty good for the lower limits.

[nicK]

Mr. Flibble wrote:

Wouldn't you want to play more flops in position and therefore reduce your raise size preflop to induce callers?

If re-raising especially I think people will & should generally raise more OOP than in position as you don't want to draw cheaply at you and have positional advantage after the flop.

i completely agree with this route.. especially when reraising..

opr

I don't think taking position in a vacum and excluding all other factors is a reason for raising more or less.

I mean take the example of raising more on the button.

When we raise on the button it is for a number of reasons sometimes we want to take the pot down preflop other times we want to build a big pot.

So in the first instance i raise with a good hand and position to get money into the pot but what happens when i am raising with a bad hand ? The pots increases and i have a marginal holding.
Also the more we raise preflop the more our FE increases now an opponent that calls for 3bb may not call for 4bb so while we create bigger pots its with less frequency. It generally means that when he does call our raise its with stronger holdings.
So what we would love to do is raise more in the first instance ONLY but this comes predictable and exploitable by good opponents.
We all know that if we raise more in late position with good hands or if your opponent folds too much post flop its +EV but this means we are playing against bad players.

I know these are isolated example twisted to make a point but i think for every positive you have some kind of negative if rasing soley due to position.

I am not saying it is -EV i just don't see how its better than raising the same amount.

Miller talks at lenght in NLH theory and pratice about varying preflop raises but its taking into account a huge number of other factors and not just position.


Opr

Shadowless

I'm a bit of an uber-rock pre-flop from early position but if i am raising,
I tend to raise a little more OOP, mainly because

A) If I win the pot right there i'm happy

I don't want to play OOP against more than 1 opponent. The flop has to hit you in the face for that to be profitable

I'm also more likely to re-raise pre-flop with premium hands if i'm OOP.

This thread is bringing up some very good points against this strategy.
Very interested to see the general consensus.

jimbling

Mr. Flibble wrote:

So...will you tell us them?

Should you take the HiCloy road and charge people more to have position on you or try to keep the pot small (yet still raise...) when OOP?

i have decided not too. I tried twice, but it was becoming so long winded etc i just quit. I would need time to explain myself properly (I've learnt my lesson ) and don't have it right now. Maybe later.

Anyhow, I really don't think it is a big issue at all. There is logic there for both. I actually believe it is better to just bet the same every time (especially if we are talking about open-raising only), but there are definitely strong arguments for varying.

redzerdrog

i just raise 4bb and +1bb for every limper it is very basic but nothing seems to be working at the minute so i am open to suggestions.

opr

If you want to try and mix it up preflop with different raises i think it should be part of overall stradegy including a number of factors and not just position.

Here is a good thread from 2+2 on it. In particular look for the posts from Ed Miller in the thread.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=6166757&page=0&fpart=all&vc=1

Opr

bops

Hi Gholi - long time!

A bit off the point (what's position? :rolleyes: ) - one of the best tells i get playing in live cash games is people making PF raises completely dependent on their holding without taking position into account whatsoever.

A good example of this is the player will always raise an unopened &/or limped pot to 7 in a 1/2 game with Ax, but will always raise to 12 with a small/mid PP.

It is interesting/very valuable read.

Me - i like to mix it up from min raise to 10xBB with diff pos & diff holding completely dependent on nothing!

...but I do like to put in big raises in an unopened pot on the button/sb - with muck or a monster - either to steal the pot with muck or get the reraise you're looking for with the monster.

...awaiting "THATS WRONG" to some/all of the above

gl