Collusion Report and SF/IRA News Management

Jackie laughlin

Broadcast news coverage on the day that the report was issued demonstrates the reluctance of journalists to "upset the peace process". It is a parody of debate when Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness are allowed to complain about murder or collusion with murderers from any quarter. They spoke as if they were peaceful innocents.

It became truly mad when Gerry Adams spoke of drumming these criminals out of the police. He was of course right but surely some journalist could have asked if criminals should be drummed out of SF?

An SDLP spokesperson may have been heard but I missed it. These are the people who have been consistent on violence and who put the real pressure over many years on the the police in Northern Ireland. Unfortunately Bertie Ahern and Tony Blair have colluded to exclude them from "the process" and placed the murderers centre stage, where they pose as peacemakers. Our supine media accept the official line and avoid asking the difficult questions.

bobbysands81

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Broadcast news coverage on the day that the report was issued demonstrates the reluctance of journalists to "upset the peace process". It is a parody of debate when Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness are allowed to complain about murder or collusion with murderers from any quarter. They spoke as if they were peaceful innocents.

It became truly mad when Gerry Adams spoke of drumming these criminals out of the police. He was of course right but surely some journalist could have asked if criminals should be drummed out of SF?

An SDLP spokesperson may have been heard but I missed it. These are the people who have been consistent on violence and who put the real pressure over many years on the the police in Northern Ireland. Unfortunately Bertie Ahern and Tony Blair have colluded to exclude them from "the process" and placed the murderers centre stage, where they pose as peacemakers. Our supine media accept the official line and avoid asking the difficult questions.

A police service is meant to protect people, not kill them, but continue with your anti-Republican rant. Amazingly you seem to think it's fine for a police service to arm, supply, service and give intelligence to serial killers. Again you're amazed that someone would complain about "criminals" in the police - do you think criminals in a police service is acceptable???

As I am not a supporter of SF (please note moderator I won't be arguing in favour of SF as I am not a supporter - also please note you locked a thread that is completely different to this one, not the same as you seem to suggest) I don't know if there are criminals in SF, I would imagine that there aren't though - it would not work in their favour to have criminals in their ranks.

The most murderuous state in the world is Britain so the hypocrisy is purely on their side not on the side of Gerry Adams.

flogen

bobbysands81 wrote:

As I am not a supporter of SF (please note moderator I won't be arguing in favour of SF as I am not a supporter - also please note you locked a thread that is completely different to this one, not the same as you seem to suggest)

If you have any problem with my moderating you can take it up with me via PM or on the Feedback forum.

Now let me be clear about why I closed the other thread and kept this open - the other thread had rambled down a path not suited to this forum, while this one was only 1 post and still had potential to stay on the right topic.

Of course there's plenty of potential here for it to do otherwise, and in the first post alone there are plenty of rants that would be better suited to Politics than here - I want posters to stay focused on the media coverage, whatever aspect of it they want to discuss.

This is not the forum to talk about collusion itself, it is not the forum to talk about how much you love or hate SF or what you think of them at all and it's not the place to talk about what should happen next now that the report is out. That's all covered by Politics, this forum is for the media coverage of it (or as bobbysands feels, the lack thereof)

bobbysands81

Thank you flogen, I understand where you are coming from.

Media coverage of this in Ireland is pitiful when compared to say... the killing of Robert McCartney (which I am not trying for one second to belittle) or the Northern Bank Robbery. Both of these issues caused a few forests to be knocked down for all the paper they were printed on. Personally I think that happened because of the political leanings of the owners of the media in this country.

Already the media seemed to have more or less swept under the carpet the fact that our nearest and dearest neighbours perpetrated acts of war against us and acts of terrorism against it's own subjects on this island.

Anyone any idea why?

vesp

bobbysands81 wrote:

A police service is meant to protect people, not kill them.

That is what 99.9% of them did. Despite the well known murderous campaign by the IRA, which accounted for almost 50% of the murders during the troubles, the police service only killed about 1% of those killed, and that was often in self defence. The Gardai shot people as well. So do all police forces around the world. I was always surprised by the courtesy and politeness and efficiency of the RUC whenever I met them, considering their conditions of stress and danger, and considering I had a southern accent, car and driving licence etc. I condemn any collusion that happened but you have to look at the collusion between republican terrorists and others as well.

bobbysands81 wrote:

The most murderuous state in the world is Britain so the hypocrisy is purely on their side not on the side of Gerry Adams.

Bit of an exageration there is there not ? There are millions of Irish people living in Britain, along with people from all over the world, without being murdered by the state. Many are obviously quite happy there, or immigration in to Britain would not have been as it was. I would say there are few more tolerant and democratic states in the world today than Britain. There are many murderous states in the world where people have disappeared, have they not. The ten or 12 people who were disappeared by the IRA ( like Jean McColville, whose remains were accidentally uncovered by coastal erosion decades after her torture and murder by the IRA ) are a very small quantity compared to the disappeared in some parts of the world.

Jackie laughlin

Of course I'm appalled that there was collusion. Of course I knew it was going on. Of course I realised that there would be people who would seek to justify it by saying that the state was trying to combat terrorism. The purpose of the state is to maintain peace, security and personal freedom; not to kill its own citizens or sink to the level of those from whom it is supposed to protect its citizens.

Now back to the thread. The radio and TV coverage was either incompetent or biased. It is normal among journalists to question the integrity or the record of a person addressing a news item but there is an exception: obvious questions are not addressed to members of SF/IRA. Day after day the SF/IRA news management becomes more complete as they seek to create their bogus new image.

Snickers Man

bobbysands81 wrote:

Media coverage of this in Ireland is pitiful when compared to say... the killing of Robert McCartney (which I am not trying for one second to belittle) or the Northern Bank Robbery. Both of these issues caused a few forests to be knocked down for all the paper they were printed on.

Already the media seemed to have more or less swept under the carpet the fact that our nearest and dearest neighbours perpetrated acts of war against us and acts of terrorism against it's own subjects on this island.

Anyone any idea why?

It was front page news on the Irish Times on Saturday and again on Tuesday, with a cover pic thrown in for good measure. It;s all over the letters page of that paper today and will probably be so for quite some time. What's your point exactly?

flogen

vesp wrote:

That is what 99.9% of them did. Despite the well known murderous campaign by the IRA, which accounted for almost 50% of the murders during the troubles, the police service only killed about 1% of those killed, and that was often in self defence. The Gardai shot people as well. So do all police forces around the world. I was always surprised by the courtesy and politeness and efficiency of the RUC whenever I met them, considering their conditions of stress and danger, and considering I had a southern accent, car and driving licence etc. I condemn any collusion that happened but you have to look at the collusion between republican terrorists and others as well.



Bit of an exageration there is there not ? There are millions of Irish people living in Britain, along with people from all over the world, without being murdered by the state. Many are obviously quite happy there, or immigration in to Britain would not have been as it was. I would say there are few more tolerant and democratic states in the world today than Britain. There are many murderous states in the world where people have disappeared, have they not. The ten or 12 people who were disappeared by the IRA ( like Jean McColville, whose remains were accidentally uncovered by coastal erosion decades after her torture and murder by the IRA ) are a very small quantity compared to the disappeared in some parts of the world.

Vesp - read my first post here - this thread is about media coverage, not the report itself, the issue of collusion, not the definition of a police service etc.

If the point you're making is that the report is not big news and so does not deserve the coverage, so be it, but make that point rather than making one about the rights and wrongs of murder and the professionalism of various organisations.

bobbysands81

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Of course I'm appalled that there was collusion. Of course I knew it was going on. Of course I realised that there would be people who would seek to justify it by saying that the state was trying to combat terrorism. The purpose of the state is to maintain peace, security and personal freedom; not to kill its own citizens or sink to the level of those from whom it is supposed to protect its citizens.

Now back to the thread. The radio and TV coverage was either incompetent or biased. It is normal among journalists to question the integrity or the record of a person addressing a news item but there is an exception: obvious questions are not addressed to members of SF/IRA. Day after day the SF/IRA news management becomes more complete as they seek to create their bogus new image.

It's not possible to take anyone seriously who uses the term SF/IRA given that no such group exists.

I agree the media coverage was incompetent and biased.

bobbysands81

Snickers Man wrote:

It was front page news on the Irish Times on Saturday and again on Tuesday, with a cover pic thrown in for good measure. It;s all over the letters page of that paper today and will probably be so for quite some time. What's your point exactly?

My point is simple.

The coverage has been miniscule compared to other events which were significantly less important and relevant than this one because of the inherent prejudices of both the Govt and the media in this state.

bobbysands81

vesp wrote:

That is what 99.9% of them did.

Nope, not true, why were root and branch changes made to the force then? It was corrupt from the bottom to the very top, just look at Ronnie Flanagan.

vesp wrote:

Despite the well known murderous campaign by the IRA, which accounted for almost 50% of the murders during the troubles, the police service only killed about 1% of those killed, and that was often in self defence.

Again not ture, read O'Loan's report for starters.

vesp wrote:

I condemn any collusion that happened but you have to look at the collusion between republican terrorists and others as well.

Like who???

vesp wrote:

Bit of an exageration there is there not ? There are millions of Irish people living in Britain, along with people from all over the world, without being murdered by the state. Many are obviously quite happy there, or immigration in to Britain would not have been as it was.

Of course the vast majority of British people are the salt of the earth but it's not that long ago since it was a case of No Blacks, No Dogs, No Irish. Their Govt is a different story though - look at the history there. From modern day Iraq to the Opium Wars and back further to their colonisation of many countries, they are the world's biggest mass murderers.

vesp wrote:

I would say there are few more tolerant and democratic states in the world today than Britain.

Really? Ask the people of Iraq and Afghanistan about that. Tolerant? Yeah right!

A Dub in Glasgo

This has barely been mentioned in the British paper media (from what I could see). They are too busy fighting for democracy in other countries to worry (or care) about what their forces were doing in Ireland.

flogen

bobbysands - please stay on topic and don't respond to vesp's posts. I've already commented on that and pointed out that it's off topic, as a result comments that respond directly to it are bound to be the same.

I think I've given enough warnings - if this thread continues to go off topic I'll either lock it and ban the issue altogether, or ban the person that drags it off topic.

DMC

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

This has barely been mentioned in the British paper media (from what I could see). They are too busy fighting for democracy in other countries to worry (or care) about what their forces were doing in Ireland.

Or wetting themselves about gays adopting children.

The press in England or their out-post editions in Ireland really don't care much for news in NI, as they possibly feel that their readership thinks its a non-issue, as there is calm and relative peace. The whole "if it bleeds, it leads" thing again.

But also there is the whole hypocritical editorial line that two editions of the same masthead could take. The Daily Mail may well be true Tory blue in London, but I get my suspicions that over here, the Irish edition leans to the PD's. Not exactly political bedfellows.

The London press don't give a fig about provincial matters. The national media (papers and TV) do not report on the devolved parliament and assembly in Scotland and Wales, only for them to get the hump when it was discussed recently about Scotland's possible independence from the UK if the SNP beat Labour in the Scottish Parliament election.

vesp

flogen wrote:

If the point you're making is that the report is not big news and so does not deserve the coverage, so be it,

That was basically my point. After all, the report was headline news on RTE and other news channels for quite some time, even though the report concerns the actions of a very limited number of people.....and not very much new info was really proven. Its amazing to see those who attempt to take the high moral ground were said to be / thought by many to be in charge of IRA units in Derry and Belfast at the time of the height of the troubles, during the abduction and torture and disappearance of widow and mother of 10 Jean McColville etc. Hope that comment is fair enough and is still on topic.

Besides, when you are looking at the dealings of hundreds of thousands of people you are bound to get the odd bad apple, and reports years afterwards do not always find out everything, as we know from many things closer to home ( eg the arms trial, the tribunals, suspected Irish security force / IRA collusion in murders of Lord Justice Gibson and his wife, Det. Constable Breen etc etc )

Jackie laughlin

The coverage on British TV has been almost as ridiculous as the Irish coverage. The integrity and credibility of SF/IRA (SF exists. The IRA exists. They have membership in common and operate as a unit.) speakers is not questioned. The SDLP who resisted violence and struggled for reform of the policing service are conspicuously rare in media coverage. In short, the media take the official Blair/Ahern line that SF/IRA are to be appeased in return for the restoration of Stormont.

joebhoy1916

vesp wrote:

Besides, when you are looking at the dealings of hundreds of thousands of people you are bound to get the odd bad apple, and reports years afterwards do not always find out everything, as we know from many things closer to home ( eg the arms trial, the tribunals, suspected Irish security force / IRA collusion in murders of Lord Justice Gibson and his wife, Det. Constable Breen etc etc )

Rubbish.

The truths out about collusion which most already knew and your talking about fantasy collusion between Gradai and IRA..

bobbysands81

vesp wrote:

That was basically my point. After all, the report was headline news on RTE and other news channels for quite some time, even though the report concerns the actions of a very limited number of people.....and not very much new info was really proven. Its amazing to see those who attempt to take the high moral ground were said to be / thought by many to be in charge of IRA units in Derry and Belfast at the time of the height of the troubles, during the abduction and torture and disappearance of widow and mother of 10 Jean McColville etc. Hope that comment is fair enough and is still on topic.

Besides, when you are looking at the dealings of hundreds of thousands of people you are bound to get the odd bad apple, and reports years afterwards do not always find out everything, as we know from many things closer to home ( eg the arms trial, the tribunals, suspected Irish security force / IRA collusion in murders of Lord Justice Gibson and his wife, Det. Constable Breen etc etc )

Holy Jebus!!!

You guys are class acts!!!

I presume you work in media as you have the same outlook. Why much less coverage than the death of McCartney or the Northern Bank being robbed?

Why are politicians not being door stopped by the media?

A police force was responsible for the death of many many people, a police force that protected one section and killed the other yet section. Remember the security forces originally came to protect Catholics from rampaging unionists, why is the media not pointing out the irony of this???

Oh the irony of people having the cheek to fight back! Lie down croppy!!!

bobbysands81

Jackie laughlin wrote:

The coverage on British TV has been almost as ridiculous as the Irish coverage. The integrity and credibility of SF/IRA (SF exists. The IRA exists. They have membership in common and operate as a unit.) speakers is not questioned. The SDLP who resisted violence and struggled for reform of the policing service are conspicuously rare in media coverage. In short, the media take the official Blair/Ahern line that SF/IRA are to be appeased in return for the restoration of Stormont.

Your logic is warped and wrong. Your statements are lies.

A Dub in Glasgo

Jackie laughlin wrote:

The coverage on British TV has been almost as ridiculous as the Irish coverage. The integrity and credibility of SF/IRA (SF exists. The IRA exists. They have membership in common and operate as a unit.) speakers is not questioned. The SDLP who resisted violence and struggled for reform of the policing service are conspicuously rare in media coverage. In short, the media take the official Blair/Ahern line that SF/IRA are to be appeased in return for the restoration of Stormont.

You are just making things up now to support your somewhat ridiculous point. The coverage has been ridiculous, not for the reasons you make up, but for the almost complete sweep under the carpet routine of not meeting the fact that the British Government colluded and covered up serial killers and criminality.

This kind of stuff exists in countries that are invaded by the UK so that the message of peace and democracy can be spread. The media have missed an own goal and you continue to rabbit on about something which is absolutely ridiculous.

Jackie laughlin

The British Government has a very poor record. Its officials have been reported now to have been involved in collusion with loyalist murderers. However, perhaps the worst thing that Britain has done in Ireland is to make SF/IRA respectable at the expense of the constitutional SDLP. My point is that the media are accepting the Downing Street line on the "peace process" and giving Gerry Adams and company a very easy time.

vesp

bobbysands81 wrote:

You guys are class acts!!!

I presume you work in media as you have the same outlook.

Do not know about anyone else here in this forum but I certainly do not work in the media. Do you think everyone who works in the media has the same outlook ?

bobbysands81 wrote:

Why much less coverage than the death of McCartney or the Northern Bank being robbed?

Why much less coverage of the collusion between republican sympathisers / extremists in the Gardai and the PIRA, which cost lives ?

bobbysands81 wrote:

A police force was responsible for the death of many many people, a police force that protected one section and killed the other yet section. Remember the security forces originally came to protect Catholics from rampaging unionists, why is the media not pointing out the irony of this???

The police force in N. Ireland only killed about 1% of the victims of the troubles, and most of these were in self defence. By contrast republican extremists killed considerably more than half the people killed in the troubles, and caused by far the most damage to property through explosions etc. Do not forget that the PIRA alone killed way more catholics than all the British security forces combined.

vesp

bobbysands81 wrote:

You guys are class acts!!!

I presume you work in media as you have the same outlook.

Do not know about anyone else here in this forum but I certainly do not work in the media. Do you think everyone who works in the media has the same outlook ?

bobbysands81 wrote:

Why much less coverage than the death of McCartney or the Northern Bank being robbed?

Why much less coverage of the collusion between republican sympathisers / extremists in the Gardai and the PIRA, which cost lives ?

bobbysands81 wrote:

A police force was responsible for the death of many many people, a police force that protected one section and killed the other yet section. Remember the security forces originally came to protect Catholics from rampaging unionists, why is the media not pointing out the irony of this???

The police force in N. Ireland only killed about 1% of the victims of the troubles, and most of these were in self defence. By contrast republican extremists killed considerably more than half the people killed in the troubles, and caused by far the most damage to property through explosions etc. Do not forget that the PIRA alone killed way more catholics than all the British security forces combined.

Why does the media let the leaders of the PIRA in the seventies in Belfast and Derry off the hook ?

A Dub in Glasgo

One of the few newspapers in Britain to take an active interest in the Dirty War is the Sunday Herald. Yesterday they had an excellent piece on the whole business

How Britain created Ulster's murder gangs

RedPlanet

Didn't Ronnie Flanagan make a statement at one point, where he was denying collusion existed, and threatened to resign if it were proved true?
Surely that is something i'd expect the media to chase him up on.
Today he's the "head of Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary" so he's still attached to the RUC (oops i mean PSNI).
Let's face it, if Gerry Adams threatened to resign from politics if such and such were proved tru, the media would be doing backflips.

Compare for example, the media coverage about the Northern Bank Robbery and claiming SF leaders would have had foreknowledge.... with the lack of media coverage when about every single Republican suspect is released from custody with no charges and the only people that look to be facing charges are Bank employees.

Compare also, the amount of printed press regards IRA decommissioning and the media silence about Loyalist (lack of) decommissioning.

An objective viewer can only deduce that it's only the actions or rather the accusations toward SF and the IRA that are media worthy, everything else is water under the bridge.

vesp

RedPlanet wrote:

Didn't Ronnie Flanagan make a statement at one point, where he was denying collusion existed, and threatened to resign if it were proved true?

Did he? But what has been proved ? Someone ( out of tens of thousands who served ) told an informer what ? There was collusion in the Gardai but did the Garda commissioner resign ?

RedPlanet wrote:

with the lack of media coverage when about every single Republican suspect is released from custody with no charges and the only people that look to be facing charges are Bank employees.

What about the Republican from Cork with the Daz box full of Northern notes ? And by the bank employee do you mean the young bank employee from West Belfast who wore a celtic top when interviewed a day or two after the raid to be facing charges ? I did not know what happened to him ? Did he not claim to be blackmailed by the robbers or what ?

RedPlanet wrote:

Compare also, the amount of printed press regards IRA decommissioning and the media silence about Loyalist (lack of) decommissioning.

First and only guns I saw being cut up and decommissioned were loyalist paramilitary guns. It was on TV one night many years ago now.

Jackie laughlin

SFIRA condemning murder or collusion in murder is like the pot calling the kettle black "only more so".

My original point was that the broadcast media especially colluded shamefully in the Blair/Ahern line that SFIRA leaders must not be challenged for fear of upsetting the "peace process". For the same reason the SDLP must be silenced insofar as possible.

joebhoy1916

vesp wrote:

First and only guns I saw being cut up and decommissioned were loyalist paramilitary guns. It was on TV one night many years ago now.

Oh how many did you see? Two?

It was good enough for Rev. Harold Good, Fr Alex Reid and General John de Chastelain but not you?

RedPlanet

vesp wrote:

There was collusion in the Gardai but did the Garda commissioner resign ?

The point is, the geezer said he'd resign if collusion was proved true. Now that it has we should expect him to be held to account, and that he'd be a man of his word. Which is obvious he is not.
The media, have done a poor job in this respect. Your comparision holds no water since no Gardai have promised to resign, get it?

As far as the rest of your post, i'm not going to be dragged off topic. It's a waste of time trying to inform the uninformed who've formulated opinions irregardless of the facts.

flogen

There's obviously no media-based discussion here - at least none that you are able to stick to.

This thread is locked - don't open a new one on the subject in this forum or you'll be banned.