When the moon hits the sky like a big pizza pie

fuzzbox

1/2 6-max
I've raised the last 4 hands (or at least 4 hands fairly close together).
I recently laid down to a reraise preflop.
I dont know the villain really.

Stacks 250ish.

Preflop
I open utg+1 with AsAd, 18/10 tag calls on the button, villain makes it 22 in the BB, I make it 66 to go, tag folds, villain calls

Flop (130)
Js 7c 4s
Villain leads for 50 leaving something like 150ish behind.

My move?

RoundTower

NickyOD is that you?

RasTa

It's an obvious fold. What are you beating!

fuzzbox

just because I ask for a plan, does not mean that I am considering a fold.

nicnicnic

I think i just smooth call here hoping he pushes the rest in on the turn, feel you gotta be hoping to get all the chips in here. Don't think its a flush draw prob AJ QQ if he has hit the set or 2 pair, well I'm not getting away from it.

edit; considering your image the push could also get paid here

cardshark202

Call shove turn/call turn shove

fuzzbox

ya, I shoved here and he passed.
I like a call in hindsight

bubbleking

donk bet from a tag player stinks of a set.

however i cudnt see myself folding here. if hes TAG he hardly has AJ.

best possible scenerio here is a flush draw jam the pot and if he does have a flush draw he might pay you off due to your loose image.

also i forgot to mention he might have an overpair most likely QQ and he is trying to fgure out where he is in the hand.

i know its a donkey tendancy not to be able to fold AA but i prob push every time here.

valor

i would just call here

Sangre

Does a flat call not look the strongest? Won't it get the villian to check the turn unless he has a big hand?

valor

also, for anybody who thinks fuzzbox posted the hand wondering whether or not he should fold, he did not. folding here would be laughable

redzerdrog

thanks for clearing that up valor!

phantom_lord

a call seems good.

nicnicnic

Sangre wrote:

Does a flat call not look the strongest? Won't it get the villian to check the turn unless he has a big hand?

not with two spades on the flop

Mr. Flibble

The min raise is so underrated.

bubbleking

Mr. Flibble wrote:

The min raise is so underrated.

thou shalt not min raise

its def writen down somewhere that whoever does this has no soul

fuzzbox

minraise=shove in this spot.

Mr. Flibble

fuzzbox wrote:

minraise=shove in this spot.

Exactly, but it is harder for AJ/QQ to drop to a min raise yet you are both completely pot committed if he calls.
...And if you do it to ianmac he will fold bottom set.

Ste05

Yeah, I like a call and then get it in on the turn.

Mr. Flibble

Ste05 wrote:

Yeah, I like a call and then get it in on the turn.

What cards can he fold to a raise here but will call a bet on the turn, when still behind? QQ?
Unless he has AK and you hope for one of 4 good cards to hit. I don't think most people will bluff the turn here.

Ste05

Well it's slightly different, it's not a case of him calling any more, it's a case of him pushing after we've shown weakness, instead of calling when we've shown strength, pushing all-in is infinitely easier than calling all-in. So let him push the turn, instead of Calling the flop.

And he'll open push the turn with more hands, basically everything he has, but he might fold to the ultimate show of strength with the re-raise flop Push, which tells him we have AA or JJ, he can probably fold KK safely, (even though noone ever would).

And what falls on the turn is basically irrelevant to us, except we dislike the flush completing (but only because it might kill our action).

Mr. Flibble

Its a tricky one! Betting out with QQ/KK planning to fold to a raise seems pretty bad play, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Maybe its not bad play if its the only way to get away from QQ.
It seems unlikely that villain is putting in 110 of 250 and folding unless he is bluffing all the same.

Maybe villain will bluff again sometimes. And villain will probably call a turn bet with any made hand so calling is a good move.

I don't know and my head is hurting. Maybe that means there's not much difference between the two lines. Thought you were the one to tell us these hidden truths fuzz!

robinlacey

i think you should just shove the flop

i understand the people who say they would call but i think the pot is big enough as it is,if he folds so be it,but i actually think you may have a better chance of stacking him here,and as for worrying about a set,you got 66 in preflop,there's no way you're folding here no matter what....

first of all,people are just more willing to commit their stack on the flop than on the turn,in normal pots people might wait till the turn to make a decision on whether to commit their stack or not,this is why you dont just always push the flop with sets (though you should try to!) but in three bet pots the dynamics are totally different and people have already decided whether they're happy to get all in or not,you may as well give them the chance to stack off rather than let them either hit a hand that beats you on the turn,or let the turn scare them away

also sometimes when you three bet you will have a less strong hand,but you will flop a flush draw or whatever and you will push here too,so its no harm if your play while bluffing/semi bluffing is consistent with your play when you have AA

fuzzbox

Robin: good points, thanks.

FWIW: I think he had precisely QQ.

AmarilloFats

Is this close?? Cause I can't make up my mind.
OK lets say he has precisely QQ.

Well then calling seems vastly better; action ruining cards include Aces Kings not flush cards, not a Jack really.
So you probably get him to commit to 85% of turn cards.


SOO is this close??? Now I think it's a clear call.

fuzzbox

I dunno - the 4 bet preflop already shows a lot of strength, and his call of said 4-bet means that he believes that he has the best hand (so he should have QQ+ at the very very least). He then bets weak at the flop, which I believed, at the time, was a "blocking" type bet, and that he might fold to a shove, even getting great odds. I shoved anyway, mostly because there was so little behind and so much in the pot, and his range was so narrow, and he would be getting such good odds.

If I call, then its pretty clear as to what sort of hand I have (JJ/QQ/KK/AA). So he probably wont continue to fire chips on the turn anyway, and nor is he likely to call any further bets on the turn that he wont call here on the flop.

I guess there is some question about what he might do with KK. he might continue with that hand if I call, but he *might* be able to lay it down here to a shove on a Jxx board, figuring that I have JJ/KK/AA/AsKs and if he holds Ks, then he knows I dont have AsKs and therefore he could lay down.
Thats a reach though.

I think there are good and bad points to calling and shoving, and maybe, in the end it makes no difference to his action. If it makes no difference, then shoving the flop is better.