A possibly unusual question...

aligator_am

I attended the Alpha course recently, which I found to be very good, but there was a question that I asked that nobody seemed to be able to answer.

The question was that if God is all knowing and omnipresent, and therefore knows everything that has happened and everything that ever will, then how was the war in heaven not foreseen?

I understand that an important factor in Christianity is choice, those who choose to accept Jesus are Born Again. But what I can't figure out is was it all predestined? If there's a constant battle between God and Satan, then why didn't God simply choose not to create the angel that turned into Satan in the first place?

This theory also applies to Judas, was it his destiny to betray Jesus? and if so was it his predetermined existence to go to hell for doing this? Basically what I'm asking is do any of us really have a choice?

I apologise if these questions are offensive to anyone, they're not meant to be, but it would be good to hear what others think of them.

Kind Regards
Al

Sangre

If God is omnipotent and omnipresent then free will isn't possible.

aligator_am

I thought that myself, but it's kind of an unsettling answer, if we have no free will then are we all pawns in a larger game? I know that sounds like something from the matrix lol, but I think it's something that we should all think about.

Jizzy

God could have created man to obey Him, but man would have been no different from a robot. What's the point in creating robots when you're omnipotent? God knew that Satan would rebel. He created him perfect, yet He fell away by His own accord. His fall was a defection from the good. Evil is just a lack of good. Evil cannot exist without good, but good can exist without evil. Jesus knew Judas would betray Him. He spoke about it many times. However to have stopped Judas from rebelling against Him would have violated his free will. I can't see the conflict between freewill and omniscience. If I have know someone will do something, how would that stop the person from doing it? They can perform the action completely free of my influence, yet I still would know what their action will be. If I could force someone to obey me, and love me, it wouldn't be true love.

St Augustine, The City of God:

There is, then, no natural efficient cause or, if I may be allowed the expression, no essential cause, of the evil will, since itself is the origin of evil in mutable spirits, by which the good of their nature is diminished and corrupted; and the will is made evil by nothing else than defection from God,—a defection of which the cause, too, is certainly deficient. But as to the good will, if we should say that there is no efficient cause of it, we must beware of giving currency to the opinion that the good will of the good angels is not created, but is co-eternal with God. For if they themselves are created, how can we say that their good will was eternal? But if created, was it created along with themselves, or did they exist for a time without it? If along with themselves, then doubtless it was created by Him who created them, and, as soon as ever they were created, they attached themselves to Him who created them, with the love He created in them. And they are separated from the society of the rest, because they have continued in the same good will; while the others have fallen away to another will, which is an evil one, by the very fact of its being a falling away from the good; from which, we may add, they would not have fallen away had they been unwilling to do so. But if the good angels existed for a time without a good will, and produced it in themselves without God’s interference, then it follows that they made themselves better than He made them. Away with such a thought! For without a good will, what were they but evil? Or if they were not evil, because they had not an evil will any more than a good one (for they had not fallen away from that which as yet they had not begun to enjoy), certainly they were not the same, not so good, as when they came to have a good will. Or if they could not make themselves better than they were made by Him who is surpassed by none in His work, then certainly, without His helpful operation, they could not come to possess that good will which made them better. And though their good will effected that they did not turn to themselves, who had a more stinted existence, but to Him who supremely is, and that, being united to Him, their own being was enlarged, and they lived a wise and blessed life by His communications to them, what does this prove but that the will, however good it might be, would have continued helplessly only to desire Him, had not He who had made their nature out of nothing, and yet capable of enjoying Him, first stimulated it to desire Him, and then filled it with Himself, and so made it better?

Besides, this too has to be inquired into, whether, if the good angels made their own will good, they did so with or without will? If without, then it was not their doing. If with, was the will good or bad? If bad, how could a bad will give birth to a good one? If good, then already they had a good will. And who made this will, which already they had, but He who created them with a good will, or with that chaste love by which they cleaved to Him, in one and the same act creating their nature, and endowing it with grace? And thus we are driven to believe that the holy angels never existed without a good will or the love of God. But the angels who, though created good, are yet evil now, became so by their own will. And this will was not made evil by their good nature, unless by its voluntary defection from good; for good is not the cause of evil, but a defection from good is. These angels, therefore, either received less of the grace of the divine love than those who persevered in the same; or if both were created equally good, then, while the one fell by their evil will, the others were more abundantly assisted, and attained to that pitch of blessedness at which they became certain they should never fall from it,—as we have already shown in the preceding book.

Jizzy

oh btw, how did the alpha course go? what did you learn in it? I'm thinking of taking one myself, but I don't know where. I'm 16, and I think you need to be 18 to do it, no?

BrianCalgary

Free choice vs. predestination.

Predestination as laid out in Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

God knows who will come to Him. He has a life for those all set out. In the old Mission Impossible show the character listened to a tape that had the phrase, 'your mission, shoulr you choose to accept', applies to us. God has a plan for our lives that will be rewarding, challenging and fulfilling. We can choose to accept it or not. Those who reject it will live their lives as they see fit. These people can still be used by God though. A case in point, I had a boss once who in a fit of pique indicated that the only reason I had the job was because of him, I pointed out that he had nothing to do with it, God gave me the job. God used him a non-Christian to effect the life of a Christian.
On free choice, God knows us so well that He knows what we will choose. I know my kids so well that I can pretty well predict their choices. Now that they are teenagers, it is little unpredictable. My son you could put a plate of cooked carrots and a piece of birthday cake in front of him and a bowl of ice cream. He choose which two to eat and in what order. He will eat the carrots first, ice cream second and forego the cake. He still has the choice, I just know him so well that I know what he will do.

God is that way with us, He knows us so well, that He knows what we'll do. For those who He knows will accept Him, He has a lfe all set out.

Satan was the same. He had the choice to love God or not. Satan now hates God and gets at Him through us rejecting God.

Hope thathelps.

kelly1

aligator_am wrote:

The question was that if God is all knowing and omnipresent, and therefore knows everything that has happened and everything that ever will, then how was the war in heaven not foreseen?

I'm pretty sure God did see this coming!

aligator_am wrote:

But what I can't figure out is was it all predestined? If there's a constant battle between God and Satan, then why didn't God simply choose not to create the angel that turned into Satan in the first place?

This is a real mystery isn't it? Why did God allow evil to enter the picture? One thing I'm sure of is that God knows better that we do. It's difficult at times to understand God's ways from our limited vantage point. God could have made things a lot easier for us by not allowing evil but then we wouldn't have any choice in the matter and somehow God's love for us would, I think, be diminished. He must have a very good reason for allowing evil considering that He would have known that He'd have to send His only begotten Son into the world to pay the price for our sins! God doesn't want to force His will upon us just like no loving person would force their will upon us.

aligator_am wrote:

This theory also applies to Judas, was it his destiny to betray Jesus? and if so was it his predetermined existence to go to hell for doing this? Basically what I'm asking is do any of us really have a choice?

I don't think anything is pre-destined but God can see into the future so it looks suspiciously like pre-destination. Judas' greatest sin was not trusting in the mercy of God. He believe that his sin was greater than God's mercy which is blasphemy!

God bless,
Noel.

aligator_am

Thanks to all for their replies and insights, very illuminating, it's always good to be hear other people's opinions and views. It makes sense in what you're saying, and I think as Kelly1 said, God definitely knows better then us lol.

Oh and Jizzy, I'm not too sure about the age requirements for the Alpha course, but I would definitely reccomend it, whereabouts are you based? Dublin? the one I went to was in Lucan and was a smaller group so it allowed a lot more interaction IMO. I liked the way you weren't getting the material stuffed down our throats but were allowed to form our own opinions and see how they matched up, I suppose it's like reading a poem and then being asked questions about it, are there any correct answers or do we all take away our own version of the same truth?

Zombrex

Ultimately the idea that God -

a) exists outside of time and as such sees all time as one (ie see the past, present and future at the same time)

b) created the universe and everything in it

c) does not decide how humans will act (ie we have free will)

.. is a paradox. It doesn't work. One of them cannot be true, or there must be a 4th that we are not aware of that isn't mentioned in the Bible, that possibly we cannot understand, that gets around the paradox.

The system cannot work as it is, because c contradicts a and b in the definition of God above.

The most common way to fix this is to get rid of "a" by stating that nothing, not even God, can view the future, can see things that have not happened yet as they don't exist. This seems to be the easiest of the 3 to drop.

It isn't the only paradox around the Judeo/Christian idea of God, but I suppose it is the most important from the point of view of free will and morality.

BrianCalgary

Wicknight wrote:

Ultimately the idea that God -

a) exists outside of time and as such sees all time as one (ie see the past, present and future at the same time)

b) created the universe and everything in it

c) does not decide how humans will act (ie we have free will)

.. is a paradox. It doesn't work. One of them cannot be true, or there must be a 4th that we are not aware of that isn't mentioned in the Bible, that possibly we cannot understand, that gets around the paradox.

The system cannot work as it is, because c contradicts a and b in the definition of God above.

The most common way to fix this is to get rid of "a" by stating that nothing, not even God, can view the future, can see things that have not happened yet as they don't exist. This seems to be the easiest of the 3 to drop.

It isn't the only paradox around the Judeo/Christian idea of God, but I suppose it is the most important from the point of view of free will and morality.

it only is illogical to you wicknight because you are trying to look at it from our human 3 dimensional point of view. Plus you have c wrong.

God does decide how humans act. He has it all laid out for those who trust Him. He also uses humans to influence others. As stated before, He has used non-believers to affect my life. Otherwise He leaves the non-believer to their own devices.

Do you have kids? I have three. I see thgis whole concept played out quite a bit. My kids have free will. I can see the consquences of some of their actions. They get hard nosed about it and insist that they be allowed to do it. As the loving father I allow it, knowing the danger is not harmful, but they have to learn for themselves.

God does the same with us:

He warns us of the consequences of our actions.
We whine and moan about it and tell God to get stuffed because we don't like His morality.
We get hurt.
We blame God for the evil that exists which increases our dislike for Him.

Man He has got to be one frustrated being. Watching us foul up all over the place.

I heard a great definition of insanity the other day: repeating the same action over and over again and expecting a different outcome. Sounds like the human race doesn't it? Our immorality leads to social decay and we wonder why, and continually refuse to turn to God.

Excelsior

Wicknight wrote:

Ultimately the idea that God...is a paradox

Your assertion does not an argument make.

Zombrex

BrianCalgary wrote:

it only is illogical to you wicknight because you are trying to look at it from our human 3 dimensional point of view.

No you have it the wrong way around.

The idea of God and free appears to make sense in the context of the rules of our universe ("our 3 dimensional point of view" as you say). Which is probably why those who wrote the Bible did not see the paradox, and why people today still don't see the paradox. The paradox only arises when you realise that God is supposed to exist out side of our universe, that he is supposed to have created our universe, and is supposed to view "time" within our universe as a single entity (and as such can see the past present and future at the same time).

BrianCalgary wrote:

God does decide how humans act.

Not directly though. God is supposed to, through choice, say that he will not cause someone to do something that they otherwise would not do. Hence "free will", we are free to follow our own will.

BrianCalgary wrote:

Do you have kids? I have three. I see thgis whole concept played out quite a bit. My kids have free will.

I knew you would use this example which is an example of what I mean by free will appears to make sense when viewed within the rules of our universe and when one assumes God is bound by the same rules. This is probably how those who wrote the Bible thought about it as well. But there are a few problems with this -

BrianCalgary wrote:

I can see the consquences of some of their actions.

Firstly you don't actually see the consequences of your child's actions, because you being a human cannot view future time. You can certainly predict what you think will happen based on knowledge and experience, but that is not the same thing at all as viewing the future as one views the present or the past.

Some people get around the paradox I mentioned above by stating that this is actually exactly what God Himself does. He does not actually view the future, but can predict what will happen in the future with perfect accuracy because of his infinate wisdom to understand the consequences of acts, just as a parent tries to do with their child.

But it is important to remember that this is not the same thing as actually viewing the future.

BrianCalgary wrote:

God does the same with us:

Again that is viewing God as a being confined by the nature of our universe. Which of course gets around the paradox, but fails the definition I've given above, and most Christians here would disagree that God is confined by the rules of our universe.

Lets say you had total and ultimate control over the foetus in your wife's womb at the moment of concept. You control its very nature, and it cannot exist without you deciding that it will exist. There are not natural laws that decide how it will or will not be, everything is totally decided by you.

Ok, now lets also imagine that you view the life of your child completely. You view everything from year 0 to his death at the same time, as one. This is your childs life. It is his only life because you are able to view this life. If his life was unknown at this point you could not see it. It is sometimes said that God views all possible futures, but that doesn't make sense since God views what decisions we make as part of viewing the future, and as such all possible futures disappear into just one path that the universe takes through time.

Ok, so you have completely control over they zygote in your wife's stomach, and you can view your child's entire life. Your child's zygote cannot be anything except what you wish it to be, because there is nothing else but you deciding how it will be. There is not even a default state to fall back on if you don't decide how it will be, there is only you.

Now you must decide a default state. You pick this initially. Now look at his time line. You can view everything that will happen to your child, and everything he will decide to do, based on the default state you have just decided you child's zygote will be in. Change it again. The time line alters. A new time line appears based on the changes you have just made to the zygote (I would point out at this point time within the universe is frozen).

What ever decision you make about the initial state of your child's zygote will create a time line unique to those initial parameters. Your decision at this point will create the time line and as such will create your child's entire life. Your child cannot have a time line independent of what you view at the very start because the time line must be viewable to you at this starting point. You view all decision your child will ever make in one go, and all decision your child will ever make flow back like a line to this one point.

The zygote cannot be created without you deciding how it will be created, and as such your child's timeline cannot exist without you deciding how this time line will be based on the initial settings of the zygote.

Ok, now imagine you are God, and instead of your child's zygote you are actually setting the initial parameters of the entire universe.

The initial state of the universe is set by God. He creates everything, and must decide how everything is at this point because nothing else will. There is no default state to fall back on, the default state is not existing. At this point (lets call it the Big Bang to stick with science) God must decide how something is otherwise it won't exist.

Now God is supposed to view time as one. Therefore He views the path the universe takes from the start to the end (assuming there is an end). There is not other possible paths because God views all the actions in non-human material, and all the decisions in humans, that carve out this path through time. There is only one path the universe will take, and God has to be able to view this at the Big Bang otherwise he can not see the future (which of course some Christians hold to).

So, the time line the universe takes doesn't exist independently from the initial settings God decides at the Big Bang. Change the settings, create a new time line. The time line is dependent on the initial settings of the Big Bang, so therefore the time line is dependent on how got sets up these initial settings. Since they cannot be set without God (the default is non-existence remember) then the timeline itself cannot exist without being decided upon by God.

And this is the important point. The time line of the universe, that God views as a single object (all past present and future as one) is completely dependent on how God initially decides the universe should be.

Therefore anything in the time line, including us, is completely dependent on how God initially decides to set up the universe. Since I cannot do anything outside of the time line God already views at the Big Bang, I'm locked into this time line. And this timeline is created by how God sets up the universe. Therefore my timeline, lasting from 1979 till say 2059, which is a subset of the main universe time line, is also dependent on how God sets up the universe. My time line is part of the main time line and as such is decided upon at the point of the Big Bang, by God.

Therefore I've no free will independent of the time line that I exist in. And this timeline cannot be independent to how God sets things up at the Big Bang. God creates this timeline, and as such decides everything I will do, from 1979 till 2059 by setting the initial state of the universe.

You cannot break out of the time line that God viewed at the Big Bang, and this time line is created by God when he creates the Big Bang.

Therefore there cannot be free will.

For free will to exist God must a) not have made the universe or b) not be able to view the future and as such the future is independent of his decisions in the past.

(I understand this is a little complex, so if anyone wants me to clarify a point, of if they want to debate a point, feel free)

Zombrex

Excelsior wrote:

Your assertion does not an argument make.

Its ok, I've got the argument too