Gardai Equipment

btowner

The equipment used by the gardai is a joke to say the least take for example these things.

1. Extendable batons should be used rather than big stoneage clubs. Most gardai find these so annoying and awkward that they patrol without them. Having extenable batons would mean an increase in safety for the gardai

2. The radios are almost like they were bought in a toy shop. Recently in Cork a Gard was seriously beaten up and he couldn't call for backup because his radio was too weak to pick up a signal.

3. All gardai should be equipped with CS gas. I know this comes under the firearms act etc. but it's time we updated this firearms act for the quickly modernising ireland.

I know that these are only belt equipment but feel free to comment on them and talk about other equipment aswell:)

vasch_ro

btowner wrote:

The equipment used by the gardai is a joke to say the least take for example these things.

1. Extendable batons should be used rather than big stoneage clubs. Most gardai find these so annoying and awkward that they patrol without them. Having extenable batons would mean an increase in safety for the gardai

Most Gardai I know (including me) never leave the station without their big stoneage club , if anything happened to them and they had no baton with them , they would not have a leg to stand on regarding disclipine code etc ...

CLADA

I have said it before on other threads about public order, garda resources etc.. and I will say it again ...TASER... No broken bones, no bruises, no rolling around the street with violent scumbags. That 5 seconds of incapacitation results in instant compliance and saves injuries to police and public alike.

Guy:Incognito

CLADA wrote:

I have said it before on other threads about public order, garda resources etc.. and I will say it again ...TASER... No broken bones, no bruises, no rolling around the street with violent scumbags. That 5 seconds of incapacitation results in instant compliance and saves injuries to police and public alike.

Try getting that one by the "wont somebody think of the children"/ Maude Flanders brigade.

Did you not know you cant physically touch a prisoner without being accused of crimes against humanity anymore.

CLADA

I know what you're saying but is it so hard to see:

Batons break bones and bruise.

Firearms kill and wound.

As far as I know they are the only weapons of defence available to the Gardai at the moment.

The taser is the obvious police weapon of defence/protection, incapacitation of the skeletal muscles long enough to be subdued and cuffed, full recovery in a matter of seconds.

I was in Prague for a weekend about 2 years ago and the TASER company were running a training programme for police across europe in the hotel I was staying in. Got talking to an american gent who invited me into the conference, I was then stupidly persuaded to experience it first hand!

I'm telling you! This would sort out a lot of problems on the streets of our fair nation.

cushtac

btowner wrote:

1. Extendable batons should be used rather than big stoneage clubs. Most gardai find these so annoying and awkward that they patrol without them. Having extenable batons would mean an increase in safety for the gardai

New batons are going on issue soon, along with body armour & new cuffs. This was mentioned in the press recently.

btowner wrote:

2. The radios are almost like they were bought in a toy shop. Recently in Cork a Gard was seriously beaten up and he couldn't call for backup because his radio was too weak to pick up a signal.

Supposedly, a tetra system will be purchased soon. This was also in the press in the last few months.

btowner wrote:

3. All gardai should be equipped with CS gas. I know this comes under the firearms act etc. but it's time we updated this firearms act for the quickly modernising ireland.

The Táiniste has said he doesn't oppose the general issue of CS or a similar agent to Gardaí.

btowner

Tazers would be a good idea along with cs gas.

I wouldn't count on the gardai getting the update correct bercause they tried to get second hand stab vests before from the US and they got extendable batons that wouldn't fold down after use

Im not giving out to the gardai im giving out to the government for making the irish police force be years behind the rest of europe

Hagar

btowner wrote:

I wouldn't count on the gardai getting the update correct bercause they tried to get second hand stab vests before from the US and they got extendable batons that wouldn't fold down after use

Can you back up these "facts" or are you just typing the first thing that comes into your head?

btowner

Yes i can back up these facts as i know a lot of people in the gardai

Hagar

Oh well, that's proof enough for me then. Sorry I doubted you. :rolleyes:

Guy:Incognito

btowner wrote:

I wouldn't count on the gardai getting the update correct bercause they tried to get second hand stab vests before from the US

Anything I've heard on the matter says that they were OFFERED the 2nd hand vests and declined.

Fey!

Stekelly wrote:

Anything I've heard on the matter says that they were OFFERED the 2nd hand vests and declined.

The Garda sitting beside me here just confirmed that that's ecactly what happened, and the government declined it.

As for the Tetra system, they've been on about that for over 5 years (since before he went on the beat). Seemingly it is used in some Dublin stations.

Personally, I say roll out the CS gas and tazers - then watch the bad boys howl like babies!!!

cushtac

There was a bit in the business section of yesterday's Indo about the radio system. According to it, a consortium consisting of Motorola, Eircom & someone else hase been given preferred bidder status. It didn't say when it would be rolled out though.

btowner wrote:

wouldn't count on the gardai getting the update correct bercause they tried to get second hand stab vests before from the US and they got extendable batons that wouldn't fold down after use

Not exactly correct. As others have said, they were offered second-hand vests by a policeman's union in the US after two Gardaí were attacked in Raheny. This offer was turned down by the department which then advertised for tenders for a body armour contract. This was recently won by a German company who will initially provide 11,000 vests. It's on the government's e-tenders web site. There were several batons on trial, the contract went to one of the big US manufacturers.

Wishbone Ash

Fey! wrote:

As for the Tetra system... ....Seemingly it is used in some Dublin stations

Yes, not as much ordinary VHF/UHF traffic lately but the TETRA seems to go 'down' a lot. I regularly hear 'control' advising units of this.

Seth Brundle

cushtac wrote:

This was recently won by a German company who will initially provide 11,000 vests.

Isn't there over 12,000 members within the gardai? Will they draw straws to find out who doesn't get one?

s-t-e-p-h-e-n

Tetra is currently being used in all inner city stations(In Dublin) and some stations in Cork! The tetra set in use is the Nokia thr880i not the motorola ones mentioned above!
Also recently all stations (not using the tetra system) were issued with between 8-20 nokia (O2) phones, this is for the new statement system (instead of a Garda going back to their station to type it up they ring a place in castlebar and explain the statement over the phone)
Most gardai were issued with extendable ASP batons (altough the government took the cheap option with these batons as they were only hardened plastic NOT the metal ones being used in the U.K and elsewhere!
Towards the vests all Gardai who have recieved riot-training have one but as they are large and bulky it's not practical to use them on a day to day basis!

cushtac

kbannon wrote:

Isn't there over 12,000 members within the gardai? Will they draw straws to find out who doesn't get one?

Maybe they think that not every Garda needs a vest? Maybe it's just an initial order?

s-t-e-p-h-e-n wrote:

The tetra set in use is the Nokia thr880i not the motorola ones mentioned above!

I didn't say that Motorola were providing the sets, I said that according to the Indo they are part of a consortium that's been given preferred bidder status for the contract.

s-t-e-p-h-e-n wrote:

Most gardai were issued with extendable ASP batons (altough the government took the cheap option with these batons as they were only hardened plastic NOT the metal ones being used in the U.K and elsewhere!

ASP is a brand of baton & they don't make plastic ones.

sdanseo

What about some of the SDU or ERU members giving up the undercover cars for Armed Respoonse vehicles as per the UK? Would this rapid response not be the way to go? It saves arming the entire fore and means the now uniformed cars can get to crime scenes quicker, along with a visibal presence that deters criminals.

I know people say this will eventually lead to the arming of the entire force but face it, if it hasn't happened yet in England it won't happen here.

Sparks

On the point of tasers and CS gas and Mace and pepper spray, according to the Firearms Act as written, these are prohibited weapons and it would be illegal for anyone in the state to possess or use them, including the Gardai or the Defence Forces.

That said, the ARW and some PDF units have used CS, so I don't think anyone's paying attention to the law when it's the state forces breaking them. Harumph.

btowner

ASP batons would be a briiliant investment for ireland. These are a trusted manufacturer in america and the FBI, CIA and pretty much every police force in every state use them. ASP even have special lawyers that will back police officers up when it comes to alleged abuse cases regarding batons

CLADA

Sparks wrote:

On the point of tasers and CS gas and Mace and pepper spray, according to the Firearms Act as written, these are prohibited weapons and it would be illegal for anyone in the state to possess or use them, including the Gardai or the Defence Forces.

Irish Independent Monday March 13th carried an article outlining the Gardas less lethal weaponry which at the moment consists of bean bag rounds and pepper spray.

The pepper spray is exactly what it says on the tin and is dispensed from a canister and not by means of a projectile, so could you point me in the general direction of the relevant section of the firearms act prohibiting pepper spray.

Sparks

CLADA wrote:

The pepper spray is exactly what it says on the tin and is dispensed from a canister and not by means of a projectile, so could you point me in the general direction of the relevant section of the firearms act prohibiting pepper spray.

Firearms Act 2006, Section One :

“prohibited weapon” means and includes any weapon of whatever description designed for the discharge of any noxious liquid, noxious gas or other noxious thing, and also any ammunition (whether for any such weapon or any other weapon) which contains or is designed or adapted to contain any noxious liquid, noxious gas or other noxious thing;

Section Two defines exemptions from the Act for gardai or armed forces holding firearms or ammunition; but not pepper spray, capsaisin balls fired from paintball guns (in the US Embassy armory), CS gas, Mace or Tasers (which case law puts in the "prohibited weapon" category).

CLADA

So the exemption has always been in the act for Gardai and defence forces in relation to firearms, then in 2002 the minister authorises the purchase and use of bean bag and pepper spray and in 2006 he makes pepper spray and its holder/canister a prohibited weapon...am I right so far?

If a Garda uses pepper spray or bean bag on a civilian can that person then make a complaint of assault or does the fact that the minister authorised their issue to the Gardai provide an exemption?

Trojan911

btowner wrote:

The equipment used by the gardai is a joke to say the least take for example these things.

I agree. Law enforcement officers should be protected. It is a H&S issue also.

My opinion would be:

1. A choice of the extendable baton or the PR 24 solid (with a further choice of having a heavy or light one). Refresher training every six months.

2. Kwick Kuffs or speed cuffs (same as normal hand cuffs but the chain is replaced with a solid bar). A perp can be controlled very easily with even one of these cuffs on. Refresher training every six months.

3. CS spray. A fab perp stopper, however in the UK stats show 1 in 10 humans are immune to this & all dogs.

4. Stab & bulletproof body armour which can be worn covertly or overtly. Preferably tailored to the officers size for comfort and maximum cover.

I don't agree that Tazers should be issued to normal beat officers but refined to the likes of detectives or the E.R.U. I wouldn't trust some beat officers to be responsible enough to hold the Tazer. 50,000 volts is very painful.

TJ911...

btowner

Trojan911 wrote:

I agree. Law enforcement officers should be protected. It is a H&S issue also.

My opinion would be:

1. A choice of the extendable baton or the PR 24 solid (with a further choice of having a heavy or light one). Refresher training every six months.

2. Kwick Kuffs or speed cuffs (same as normal hand cuffs but the chain is replaced with a solid bar). A perp can be controlled very easily with even one of these cuffs on. Refresher training every six months.

3. CS spray. A fab perp stopper, however in the UK stats show 1 in 10 humans are immune to this & all dogs.

4. Stab & bulletproof body armour which can be worn covertly or overtly. Preferably tailored to the officers size for comfort and maximum cover.

I don't agree that Tazers should be issued to normal beat officers but refined to the likes of detectives or the E.R.U. I wouldn't trust some beat officers to be responsible enough to hold the Tazer. 50,000 volts is very painful.

TJ911...

I agree with my fellow Cork man. Very good points you made, you obviously know a lot.

Trojan911

CLADA wrote:

I have said it before on other threads about public order, garda resources etc.. and I will say it again ...TASER... No broken bones, no bruises, no rolling around the street with violent scumbags. That 5 seconds of incapacitation results in instant compliance and saves injuries to police and public alike.

CLADA,

The problem there, as always, is the paperwork after. To fire a Tazer, you are shooting a minature barb into some person (basically a straightened fishhook). It requires a doctor in a hospital to remove that said barb. Think money & resourses, cos that is what the government & the Commissioner is thinking. CS spray is the way forward. No doctors required, just lots of Kleenex.

TJ911...

Trojan911

kbannon wrote:

Isn't there over 12,000 members within the gardai? Will they draw straws to find out who doesn't get one?

Kbannon,

Every serving Garda should have one. They are all required to perform the same duties irrespective if they are station bound or not.

TJ911...

cushtac

Section 14 of the Firearms Act 1925:

Prohibition of manufacture and possession, etc, of weapons discharging noxious liquids.

14.—(1) It shall not be lawful for any person without the authority of the Minister for Defence to manufacture, sell, purchase, hire, let on hire, use, or carry, or to have in his possession, custody, or control, or knowingly to have on his premises any prohibited weapon as defined in this Act.

(2) Every person who after the commencement of this Act and without the authority of the Minister for Defence manufactures, sells, purchases, hires, lets on hire, uses, or carries, or has in his possession, custody or control, or knowingly has on his premises any prohibited weapon as so defined shall be guilty of a misdemeanour, and shall be liable on conviction thereof to suffer penal servitude for any term not exceeding five years or imprisonment with or without hard labour for any term not exceeding two years.

Trojan911

s-t-e-p-h-e-n wrote:

Most gardai were issued with extendable ASP batons (altough the government took the cheap option with these batons as they were only hardened plastic NOT the metal ones being used in the U.K and elsewhere!!

I've not heard of these plastic ASP's. Would they be the T-Bar retractable batons by any chance? They are the only ones I've seen. Issued to the BTP (British Transport Police).

TJ911...

CLADA

cushtac wrote:

Section 14 of the Firearms Act 1925:

Prohibition of manufacture and possession, etc, of weapons discharging noxious liquids.

14.—(1) It shall not be lawful for any person without the authority of the Minister for Defence to manufacture, sell, purchase, hire, let on hire, use, or carry, or to have in his possession, custody, or control, or knowingly to have on his premises any prohibited weapon as defined in this Act.

(2) Every person who after the commencement of this Act and without the authority of the Minister for Defence manufactures, sells, purchases, hires, lets on hire, uses, or carries, or has in his possession, custody or control, or knowingly has on his premises any prohibited weapon as so defined shall be guilty of a misdemeanour, and shall be liable on conviction thereof to suffer penal servitude for any term not exceeding five years or imprisonment with or without hard labour for any term not exceeding two years.

Thats interesting cushtac, it would appear to cover the pepper spray.

Trojan911 wrote:

The problem there, as always, is the paperwork after. To fire a Tazer, you are shooting a minature barb into some person (basically a straightened fishhook). It requires a doctor in a hospital to remove that said barb. Think money & resourses, cos that is what the government & the Commissioner is thinking. CS spray is the way forward. No doctors required, just lots of Kleenex.

The brits thought the same until their 12 month trial run revealed taser use had prevented use of firearms and possible death in six cases. The cost of investigating a death as a result of a police shooting in Britain is £1,000,000.
So economics influenced their decision to introduce the device.

Trojan911

CLADA wrote:

The brits thought the same until their 12 month trial run revealed taser use had prevented use of firearms and possible death in six cases. The cost of investigating a death as a result of a police shooting in Britain is £1,000,000.
So economics influenced their decision to introduce the device.

Tazer is difficult compared to CS spray. Royalty protection, Armed response units & Level 1 Public order units (UK) are trained in the use of Tazer. The normal beat officer (UK) is not. I don't really understand your reply.

Tazer is there to be used by the above units not the normal beat/foot patrol. It is a non lethal tool to be used in extreme cases to avoid lethal confrontation.

My imput here on this forum is, in Ireland, is that if local/beat officers were to be issued with Tazer it would not work because of the aftermath i.e. the paperwork, waiting around hospitals etc a serious drain of resourses. CS spray would benefit them more.

TJ911...

cushtac

Trojan911 wrote:

I've not heard of these plastic ASP's. Would they be the T-Bar retractable batons by any chance? They are the only ones I've seen. Issued to the BTP (British Transport Police).

It was a straight 21" friction lock baton, make unknown. I'm not sure it was on wide-scale issue though.

CLADA

Trojan911 wrote:

Tazer is there to be used by the above units not the normal beat/foot patrol. It is a non lethal tool to be used in extreme cases to avoid lethal confrontation.

My imput here on this forum is, in Ireland, is that if local/beat officers were to be issued with Tazer it would not work because of the aftermath i.e. the paperwork, waiting around hospitals etc a serious drain of resourses. CS spray would benefit them more.

TJ911...

CS spray is a less lethal device and would come under the same guidelines as all such devices. ie. after use medical attention would be provided to the injured party, in a subsequent investigation or court case the provision of kleenex would not be considered adequate medical attention, this is standard procedure across Europe, and our Military and Gardai are "Benchmarking themselves against best practices throughout Europe" and complying with human rights legislation.
You are correct in saying the local beat officers will not be issued with taser in Ireland. For the reasons we have both given they won't be getting their hands on cs or pepper spray in the near future either.

Trojan911

CLADA wrote:

the provision of kleenex would not be considered adequate medical attention

The above comment was meant as a bit of lighthearted banter comparing the difference between being shot with a barb and liquid, I know what I would prefer given the choice, Kleenex. However, the correct proceedure after the discharge of CS is plenty of eye wash and fresh air. Tissues would also be a very big plus as the amount of snot & tears that is discharged from a person is huge and I mean huge.

The person should also not be confined to the rear of the Paddy Wagon or enclosed in a confined space for at least fifteen minutes after and must be encouraged to avoid rubbing their eyes. Hospital treatment is not normally required however the custody Sgt may request the services of the police doctor.

I would still be in favour of CS going to the Gardaí. It is an effective weapon against thugs that carry knives and who grace our streets not giving a toss about anyones human rights. Law enforcers also have the right to life and carry out sometimes dangerous and life threatening work so why shouldn't they be properly protected?

TJ911...

btowner

Trojan911 wrote:

It is an effective weapon against thugs that carry knives and who grace our streets not giving a toss about anyones human rights. Law enforcers also have the right to life and carry out sometimes dangerous and life threatening work so why shouldn't they be properly protected?

TJ911...

This is a good point I hate the way the criminals are now becoming pretty much more powerful in terms of weapons than the gardai. I also hate that ireland is one of the richest countries in europe but we still are backwards when it comes to our police service.

I know people are going to tell me the good things about the gards but im realistically comparing the gardai to other police services around europe.

Im not blaming the gardai either im blaming that f**k**g ejit of a justice minister.

hullaballoo

btowner wrote:

This is a good point I hate the way the criminals are now becoming pretty much more powerful in terms of weapons than the gardai. I also hate that ireland is one of the richest countries in europe but we still are backwards when it comes to our police service.

I know people are going to tell me the good things about the gards but im realistically comparing the gardai to other police services around europe.

Im not blaming the gardai either im blaming that f**k**g ejit of a justice minister.

/Steps in.

Ahem, what proof have you that Mick Mack is a "f**k**g ejit (sic)"?

If you're going to defame people, you shouldn't do it on a recorded medium where you could be liable for it. I can never understand why people come in here to rant about things. This forum isn't a soap box. If you want one, get a blog. We're not interested.

Adieu.

btowner

Ask any gard what they think of "Mick Mack" and you'll understand why i called him an ejit.

Anyway i was only saying that at the end to throw it in. If i wanted to give out about him i'd start a new thread so stop being such a b***h about it.

hullaballoo

Keep going on like that and you'll get a site ban.

Aside from the fact that you've been talking out of your ass for each of your 25 posts, most people here don't take too kindly to being called "a b***h". I'm no exception.

btowner

Ok sorry i hope i didn't make you cry. Why have you been stalking me anyway by checking all my posts. Your a weirdo:)

hullaballoo

You don't know the half of it.

Anyway, you're certainly banned from this forum permanently, and I'm not sure how long you'll last on this site. I'll put you down as 4/5F on to be banned within a week.

s-t-e-p-h-e-n

cushtac wrote:

ASP is a brand of baton & they don't make plastic ones.

Sorry bout that, I usually refer to any extendable baton as an ASP!
Let's face it though, The gardai are well behind the rest of the world when it comes to policing, although we're catching up its at an alarmingly slow speed!
It seems at the moment that they're getting safer cars (replacing the mondeo's with Volvo's and subarus)!

vasch_ro

Trojan911 wrote:

I agree. Law enforcement officers should be protected. It is a H&S issue also.

My opinion would be:

1. A choice of the extendable baton or the PR 24 solid (with a further choice of having a heavy or light one). Refresher training every six months.

I believe these are issue to the current phase in templemore at the moment, they are a plastic variety

2. Kwick Kuffs or speed cuffs (same as normal hand cuffs but the chain is replaced with a solid bar). A perp can be controlled very easily with even one of these cuffs on. Refresher training every six months.

Have these already, we use them in the Public Order Unit, as well as the above expandable batons(plastic) and an extra long plastic type baton worn visibly

3. CS spray. A fab perp stopper, however in the UK stats show 1 in 10 humans are immune to this & all dogs.

have heard nothing about this, although personally i believe it would be useful

4. Stab & bulletproof body armour which can be worn covertly or overtly. Preferably tailored to the officers size for comfort and maximum cover.

On trial in Tallaght at the moment, i have seen and worn the vests , the are like the london met ones, worn visibly and have the Garda insignia on them

I don't agree that Tazers should be issued to normal beat officers but refined to the likes of detectives or the E.R.U. I wouldn't trust some beat officers to be responsible enough to hold the Tazer. 50,000 volts is very painful.

I think the ERU now use non lethal weapons as a result of abbeylara, i agree with the sentiment with regard to regular issue to everyone
TJ911...

Personally i think the vests should have priority
sorry i messed up the quoting thing