Are cars too tech for their/our own good?

tc20

The following happened to a mate from work a couple of days ago..
He drives a 05 Seat Cordoba, bought it when 6 months old (the car, not him, before you wags start). The other night he's on his way home (delivers takeaways as a nixer) and the "ECP" light comes on the dash. He pulls over and checks the manual. ECP light refers to accelerator problems according to the handbook. Starts up again, light still on, and goes to drive home. The car is barely responding to pressure on the gas pedal, so he crawls the car home (only a mile). Next morning he brings it to the Seat dealer where he purchased the car. The mech plugs in the diagnostic yokeymajig, and says "ah yea, both your brake lights are gone". Mate knew one was gone previous to this. The mech puts in two new bulbs and presto - the cars fine again. Apparently it causes the ECU, or whatever it is, to go doo-lally.
Go figure

So i know modern technology in cars results in fantastic advances (economy/power output/safety aspects etc), but are cars becoming too smart for our own good? Lift the bonnet on any new car, and all you can access is the oil filler cap, dipstick, washer fluid etc.

Kaskade

I know nothing about Seats but I wonder did the car go into 'limp home' mode where you cant go over a certain speed as it would be dangerous with no brake lights,

I've heard of ECU's putting cars with slight mechanical problems into 'limp home' mode to avoid more damage.

gyppo

I've heard of this happening on Seat's, causing the engine management light to go on, but never heard of it causing the car to go in 'limp' mode.

A friend of mine had an awful time with a VW Bora TDi and the local VW dealers.
The Turbo was inclined to stick, causing the car to stutter on acceleration at around 1700/1800 rpm.
Dealers could never find anything wrong with it, because no fault was ever logged in the ECU. Their theory - No ECU logged fault = no fault. This fiasco went on for months, and a dog with a hammer up its h**e could easily see something was wrong with the car.
He eventually found a good independant mechanic who sorted it out.

Maybe cars are becoming too smart for their own good, and maybe the ability for garages to logically fault find cars based on the symptoms presented have diminished, due to an over-reliance on logged fault codes.

Trampas

I have an Ibiza and I get the same problem but not the power loss. Have it at the moment bringing it in tomororow so will tell you want my problem is.

I rang up the garage and they said the same thing about the blubs.

I have ever had 2 problems with mine.

1) A temp sensor went on the car which couldn't tell the computer on the car what the temp of the engine was and thus giving it the right amount of petrol is start the car.

2) A coil plug went and how your mates car went was exactly like mine. No power at all.

Volvoboy

gyppo wrote:

a dog with a hammer up its h**e could easily see something was wrong with the car.

LOL:D

Aye, cars are too smart for thier own good, they are just too electrical for my taste, like driving an i pod, knock on effect of this is when the cars of today get older they'll just be scrapped, these bloody cars now have put the brakes on the motor trade, i mean the nixer-wise, back in the day you could service your own car not a problem, now you need a €5k diagnostics tool to change the oil.



-VB-

mike65

I think this thread merely suggests Seats have crappy electrics!

Mike.

unkel

Never too clever!

I suppose a typical Cuban mechanic would disagree with me

mike65

To be serious for a moment, yes is the answer and you can ask any w210 e class owner about it. They not only rusted quicker than the car they replaced they had about 10 times the foilbles as cut-price (in terms of manufacturing quality) Merc gizmos failed within months of purchase. The marque has not yet recovered even if sales are still good.

Open the bonnet of any newish car and most folks won't have a clue what they are looking at or for if it starts playing up. The wiring looms of anything built since about 1993 would scare anyone.

Mike.

crosstownk

When both of the brake light bulbs blow it causes the signal from the brake pedal switch to be 'implausible'. This is because, with both lights blown, the ECU cannot detect a continuous circuit, so it lights the fault light. This has also been the cause of ABS problems on Passats.

I'd be more concerened as to why it blew two bulbs at once. It sounds like a fault that may recur.

maidhc

The technology means that bread and butter cars today are more powerful than many "supercars" of yore, while still being incredibly efficient compared to their predecessors.

The downside is they can be temperamental.

Mechanics refusing to believe the car has a problem unless the computer says so is more a reflection on their own abilities than on the electronics.

MercMad

I feel the problem is actually with the mechanics training, or lack of it, on these new models !

In fact my CLK has no diptsick for engine or transmission oil !! The engine oil can be checked with the on board computer but the transmission cannot. You have to go to aq dealer who inserts the correct dip stick for whatever model you've got. Now that is penny pinching at its best, and is just bloody awkward !!

This is actually true, our family has an S-Class with 14,000 miles on it, it failed to start on a weekly basis, always totally flat (central locking wouldn't even work). They replaced the battery serveral times and over the space of a year it had been in 3 different dealers, off the road at least one week out of every months usually for 4-8 days !

Each time they said............"No fault found" according to the diagnostic machine. Eventually I told them to give it to their MD to drive, which they did and when he was stranded late one night they eventually took it seriously and threw money at it to get it fixed. They replaced 5 different control units in it under warranty. The dealer actually believed the diagnostic machine over the customer, as though we were making it up !!

Unreal !

This car was over €140k when new, it was bought used by us hence we could not give it back, though we did start legal proceedings.

Its been perfect for the last 2 months so eventually they can enjoy it !!

The dealers havent a clue how to fault find anymore !

gyppo

MercMad wrote:

I feel the problem is actually with the mechanics training, or lack of it, on these new models !


Each time they said............"No fault found" according to the diagnostic machine.

.......... The dealer actually believed the diagnostic machine over the customer, as though we were making it up !!



The dealers havent a clue how to fault find anymore !

Totally agree with the above.

How did garages fix cars before the introduction of Diagnostics? OK, cars were a lot more basic back then, but garages/mechanics had a better understanding of the basic mechanics of the car, and were usually able to sort the problem through the application of logic.

I appreciate that electronics play a huge part in all parts of cars these days, but diagnostic systems should be used as an aid, not replacement for fault-finding.

mike65

The difference is once you could take something apart to understand it.

Mike.

colm_mcm

I think once Mercedes Benz start to lose their core customers (happening already with E Class, personally know 3 people who won't buy them again) to more reliable makes, they will take building reliable electrics more seriously.

unkel

colm_mcm wrote:

I think once Mercedes Benz start to lose their core customers (happening already with E Class, personally know 3 people who won't buy them again)

And hundreds of thousands of taxi drivers in continental Europe potentially. The customers that used to buy a brand new E class every other year. I can only hope MB get their act together in time

crosstownk

The technology on board cars these days makes driving more comfortable, easier and more fuel efficient. All of the above are good things. However, a lot of this technology is not completely reliable, and as there are numerous components of this type in a car, the chances are one or another will prove faulty.

I'm all for technological innovation in cars, but only if it proves reliable. Constant 'upgrading' can be detrimental if the technology has not proven to be reliable.

While I much prefer the design, drive and looks of European cars, I think its worth noting that the Japanese brands tend to use more proven technology and, as a result, are more reliable.

@MercMad - totally agree with you about the dipstick issue. Newer BMWs have no dippy and the level is checked via some sensor that displays the level on the dash. Why not use the dipstick method - surely its cheaper to manufacture and is practically 100% reliable. Electronic level sensors can still be employed, but keep the dipstick for checking the oil level. Electronic 'dipping' has no extra benefits that I can see.

peasant

The other issue is that very few of the modern cars will make it to "classic", never mind "vintage" status.

There will come the day when your friendly mechanic will tell you that the essential chip that ground your beloved oldie to a halt cannot be got for love nor money ...anywhere.

Electronics have such a short development and manufacturing lifespan these days, it's frightening.

unkel

peasant wrote:

Electronics have such a short development and manufacturing lifespan these days, it's frightening.

Scary point

Stky10

My boss has a 70 grand Lexus of less than a year old. It has alarms going off for a couple of different things like tyre pressure etc that are completely spurious.

I agree with the general theme here though. When cars were simpler there was only so many things that could go wrong. Now the possibilities are much greater and the diagnostic tools haven't developed enough to be reliable or much use.

Owen

peasant wrote:

There will come the day when your friendly mechanic will tell you that the essential chip that ground your beloved oldie to a halt cannot be got for love nor money ...anywhere.

This won't happen for major brands. Reserve parts are still available for long discontinued BMWs. Hell, even for Motorcycles, you can get aftermarket ECU's that replace ones from 20 years ago. And there'll always be the scrapyard.

peasant wrote:

Electronics have such a short development and manufacturing lifespan these days, it's frightening.

You can't use a broad sweeping statement like that, and not back it up. Consumer Electronics have short development and manufacturing cycles - that's why our phones need Firmware upgrades after we buy them, and our TV's die after a relatively short life span.

I studied Electronic Engineering in College. There are any number of ways to engineer a circuit using a myriad of components. Components vary in Tolerances, you'll get some that will just about do the job, but have a short life span, and then you'll get ones that have incredibly long life spans, and work under very stiff constraints. A good friend works for Motorola, and his project for the last 6 months has been to make a crystal vibrate at 1.43 Mhz every second, no more, no less, and it still must be able to do this in a years time with no deviation, 2 years, 5 years. This is what we call Mission Critical engineering. You work with high quality components, and stiff objectives. It's what NASA do, it's what Boston Scientific do for Medical devices, and it's what most major car manufacturers do. Yes, you'll get a flaky unit some of the time, but when you get something that works, it works full stop.

Please also bear in mind, without car computers, we wouldn't have :
ABS Brakes.
Traction Control.
Stability Control.
More Airbags, and Selective Airbag Deployment.
Lower Emisisons.
Trip Computers.
Lower Consumption.
On-board Accident Management Systems.
Rain Sensing Wipers.
Park Distance Control.
And of course, Diagnostics.

It is worth it!

peasant

ned78 wrote:

You can't use a broad sweeping statement like that, and not back it up. Consumer Electronics have short development and manufacturing cycles - that's why our phones need Firmware upgrades after we buy them, and our TV's die after a relatively short life span.

What I meant was that in the computer world, what works today is old tomorrow and will be replaced by something completely different the day after.

So, the critical chip in your car is well engineered and may actually last twenty years. Still, this is no good to you, if in year twentyone you stand there with broken component in hand and your mechanic tells you that that particular chip was last manufactured 19 years ago and can't be got anymore.

Owen

peasant wrote:

So, the critical chip in your car is well engineered and may actually last twenty years. Still, this is no good to you, if in year twentyone you stand there with broken component in hand and your mechanic tells you that that particular chip was last manufactured 19 years ago and can't be got anymore.

As stated, if you have a major brand name car, there will be reserve components in stock, and there will be aftermarket components available too. We recently supplied electronics for an almost 30 year old 6 Series BMW. Any decent car worth keeping for 30 years will have specialist Companies looking after it supplying pattern parts (Including electronics) if necessary. There are already 3rd party Companies for example producing electronics for the Jag XKs, and there's a thriving parts industry for the long discontinued DeLorean.

If you have a Tata Pickup on the other hand (Just picking an obscure example), electronics may be the least of your worries. Not only will ECUs not be available, you might have to go retrofitting 3rd party pistons, exhausts, body panels, etc. Let's face it, only collectable cars should be on the roads in 20-30 years, and anything 'ordinary' - for want of a better word, will do as it does now. Canabalise it's deceased siblings in the Scrapyard.

And don't forget also, that a lot of manufacturers share tech! So, I'm nearly certain if you can't get a part for your Seat Ibiza in 20 years, the part you'll get for a VW Polo will work in it. The future's not that bleak.

maidhc

ned78 wrote:

If you have a Tata Pickup on the other hand (Just picking an obscure example), electronics may be the least of your worries. Not only will ECUs not be available, you might have to go retrofitting 3rd party pistons, exhausts, body panels, etc.

The Tata has a Peugeot engine... and I suspect no ECU

I'm big into restoring vintage tractors, and the difference between tidying up a 1950's tractor and a 1970's is pretty huge. Trying to do up a 1980's machine is harder again, and really I don't know where to start with something from the 1990's.. the costs involved would be prohibitive, mostly because of electronics.

For instance I bought a very simple relay type circuit recently for a 20yr old baler. It cost over €200.

daymobrew

tc20 wrote:

The mech plugs in the diagnostic yokeymajig, and says "ah yea, both your brake lights are gone". Mate knew one was gone previous to this. The mech puts in two new bulbs and presto - the cars fine again.

Why didn't your mate fix the blown bulb that he knew about?

peasant

If you love your Tata dearly enough, you can always find somebody to make you the metal bits you need ...may be dear, but can be done.

Noboday will make you spare electronics.


And another issue:

Electronics add to safety and comfort, but they also cause some very dangerous situations.

All those stories where cars suddenly switch off everything while driving at speed, going into limp-home mode in the middle of a busy crossing ...

The electric windows that wind themselves down in the middle of the night (and a rainstorm), doors that lock/unlock themselves and alrms that disarm themselves.


The end is nigh anyway ...Microsoft recently announced a deal with Ford

tc20

daymobrew wrote:

Why didn't your mate fix the blown bulb that he knew about?

valid point, i always carry spare bulbs, and would check them on a regular basis. He might learn from this episode to carry them in future

Owen

peasant wrote:

Noboday will make you spare electronics.

There are already companies out there making pattern electronics at the moment for a few select models, and in time, there will be a demand driven market for replacement modules too.

nialler

Current problems with christine (my S320)

Passenger baby seat sensor causes the ABS light to stay on constantly (requires seat to be stripped and sensor mat replaced)

Passenger seat memory controller (move the seat back and forth and up & down every month or so, doesn't remember positions)

Need new sparks (12) and a couple of leads.

Previous problem - crank shaft sensor (150 euro for lump of plastic & a magnet on the end including fitting).

To the guy who's parents got the S, one thing to remember is that the auto box is no longer sealed for life, so if it's around 60,000 miles on it get the transmission fluid changed, makes an enormous difference. There's a guy up off the walkinstown roundabout that does it, excellent work and quite reasonable

So it's going to be an expensive January.

galwaytt

well, I own an 01 E200k, but wouldn't touch the newer ones, from 02 on. I believe mine is a W210. The one that replaced it is definately a pile of ****e, I agree, and drove an 05 lately, which confirmed it..........

As for out of date electronics - it's already happening. Ask anyone with a Porsche 928.........likewise Nissan 300ZX......even in manufacturing machinery, I know of (very) expensive machinery that has been scrapped due to the non-availability of a particular component on the PCB...

And with electronics 'evolving' around every 18 months, and with car models now taking up to 5 years, you could say it's out of date the day in goes on sale.........

As an aside, I came up with a barn-find today: a one owner, 48k mile 1988 Corolla 1.1 4-door. Mint inside, few scuffs outside. FSH. Car, under bonnet, is like new. Shock when I went to reverse it: no pass side mirror (they used to be extra !), no PAS - although I only found out afterwards - it didn't need it..., and it probably does 50 mpg,.....manual windy-windy windows...........but it did bring back the market, the need even, for a basic, soundly-engineered simple motor car. We can have elec windows and mirrors, but we don't all need CANBUS or OBDII ports.....the Corolla will probably outlive all of us......