Gutshot lose their case

Fatboydim

Just seen it on CH4 news. No further details but Derek has been found guilty.

Fatboydim

Details from

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6267603.stm

A man has been found guilty of running unlicensed poker games.
Derek Kelly, 46, argued poker is a game of skill so he did not need a licence under the 1968 Gaming Act, as the law requires it only for games of chance.

But the jury at Snaresbrook Crown Court disagreed and took less than two hours to find him guilty of organising games at his Gutshot Club in central London.

The prosecution said the Irish man took a cut from the prize pot as well as charging the players for participating.

Kelly, a financial analyst from Greystones, Co Wicklow, Ireland, was found guilty of two counts of contravening of the Act.

If we accept that a game of chance includes all games of combined chance and skill every game you could possibly think of would fall foul of this particular Act

Zeeshan Dhar, defence lawyer


Poker: A game of skill or chance?

The charges related to games of poker, organised on 7 December 2004 and 27 January 2005, at the private members club in Clerkenwell in which a levy was charged on the winnings.

The Act states a licence is needed to host games of chance such as blackjack and roulette - but not games of skill, like chess and quiz machines.

The trial centred around the popular Texas Hold 'Em variant of poker, in which each player is dealt two cards and then a "community pool" of five cards is placed on the table.

The jury was asked to decide whether it was a game of skill or chance, or a combination of both.

Graham Trembath QC, told the jury that they alone would decide the verdicts.

Shuffled cards

He said: "Is poker a game of mixed skill and chance? That is for you to decide. The prosecution submit that common sense dictates that it is.

"Why do we say that? We say that because before a game can start someone shuffles the cards."

Zeeshan Dhar, defending Kelly, told the jury poker required such a level of skill it did not fall within the remit of the Act.

He said: "If we accept that a game of chance includes all games of combined chance and skill every game you could possibly think of would fall foul of this particular Act."

A date for sentencing and consideration of costs has been set for 16 February.

The judge has said: "I do not consider this to be a case where any sentence of imprisonment is appropriate."

The prosecution's legal costs were £16,000 with a bill of £6,800 for investigation of the case.

Serious breach

He said he was "minded" to make a very substantial" cost order against Mr Kelly with a relatively "modest" penalty.

In a statement issued after the trial the Gambling Commission said it was pleased to see the case had concluded.

"The law has always been clear, commercial gambling needs to be properly regulated to ensure that members of the public are protected from exploitation.

"The Gutshot was not regulated and was in serious breach of the Gaming Act 1968," the statement read.

Mr Kelly, a married father of four, is chairman of the Gutshot private members club, which opened in 2004.

Doc Farrell

This is not good Len. I suspect the courts may try to break him financially. This is very bad indeed. Top chap, I just hope they don't send him to prison too. Christ almighty.

kincsem

Fatboydim wrote:

Just seen it on CH4 news. No further details but Derek has been found guilty.

It was on the BBC1 news at 22:00. Some filming inside the Gutshot, and an interview with the guilty. He didn't seem too upset.

RoundTower

Sean, did you know that there is a street named after you (Kincsemstrasse) in Iffezheim in Germany? I was passing through it yesterday and thought of you.

stretchticles

What are the implecations if any for the Irish card clubs?

brianmc

stretchticles wrote:

What are the implecations if any for the Irish card clubs?

None for the moment.

There is no regulation for casinos at the minute so you can't really be breaching anything. (apart from the whole casinos being illegal in the first place thing anyway.)

Once they regulate casinos properly here the Irish courts would likely follow suit in deciding that holdem tournaments need to be regulated.

Hobbes

I would of thought Poker would be a game of Skill not chance. The dealing of the cards is the chance but to actually win well requires skills.

Although the same could be technically applied to horse racing.

Doc Farrell

I don't know if this is true (i.e. it might be entirely false) but I heard that Rank who own the Grovesnor chain of casinos paid an investigator to write a report on the Gutshot and then they handed it over to the police. Anyone else know about this? If its true then their hole in Luton will be the last one I'll be losing money in.

kebabfest

I would agree, but try convincing this to people who detest gambling.
Also there is another angle in this case. At the moment in the UK they are going to be bringing out a load of super casinos which will pay tax directly to the government (big business) .
Now these big boys will obviously start a massive AD campaign encourging peopel to gamble. Smaller fry could have theoritically jumped on the bandwagon and opened poker rooms. With this ruling that now becomes impossible ensuring that all the business goes to the fat lads.

DeVore

The law in the UK is very different from the law here. All legal advice we (and others) have had is that poker tournaments are 100% legal provided the registration fee is clearly separated from the prizepool.

DeV.

hotspur

kebabfest wrote:

. At the moment in the UK they are going to be bringing out a load of super casinos which will pay tax directly to the government (big business) .

If by boatload of supercasinos you mean 1 then you are right.

hotspur

Kelly has decided to appeal, apparently he doesn't think he has done enough damage to poker's reputation. Moron.

Fatboydim

I can't see that he has a leg to stand on. The argument of the case seems to be not "Is poker a game of skill?" But more is it a game that involves both skill and luck?" And how can any of us deny that. That's why the Bad beat thread is a sticky. So under UK law he's been found guilty. The shame of it all is that the law - as usual is an ass. It's like lumping all forms of pornography together. Not all games of skill and chance are the same.

kincsem

RoundTower wrote:

Sean, did you know that there is a street named after you (Kincsemstrasse) in Iffezheim in Germany? I was passing through it yesterday and thought of you.

I'm flattered. I didn't know the Germans thought so highly of my modest poker skills. :rolleyes:

The street is probably named after the Hungarian filly Kincsem ( born 1874) who won 54 races from 54 starts, in Hungary, Austria, Germany, France, and England. Kincsem means "my treasure". My big interest is analysing thoroughbred horse pedigrees.

http://www.tbheritage.com/Portraits/Kincsem.html

Dave, Are you playing poker in Baden-Baden?

The Grosser Volkswagen Preis Von Baden is run over 12 furlongs at Iffezheim Racecourse, Baden-Baden, in Germany on Sunday, September 3, 2006, on the last day of the six-day "Grosse Woche" Festival. The track is eight miles west from the centre of Baden-Baden on the edge of the Black Forest. It has been compared to Deauville in France because of the relaxed holiday atmosphere and to Ascot in England because of its wooded area. The illustrious contest dates back to 1858, although there have been a number of years, including during the two World Wars, when the race was not run, and the 2006 event is the 134th renewal. During the 19th century, Kincsem, the best horse to come out of Hungary, captured the Grosser Preis Von Baden three times between 1877 and 1879.

Fatboydim

You're lucky Sean - I had a dumpling named after me. Dim Sum.

Doc Farrell

hotspur wrote:

Kelly has decided to appeal, apparently he doesn't think he has done enough damage to poker's reputation. Moron.

I'm surprised by this hotspur, you are usually a fount of moderation. His grounds for appeal haven't been discussed yet. He's also far from being a moron, he's a considerate fellow trying to run a cardroom against too many enemies. Christ, not even the other casinos are on his side. Its a great little place and its a shame that he is being made an example of.

I guess we must agree to disagree....

RoundTower

kincsem wrote:

I'm flattered. I didn't know the Germans thought so highly of my modest poker skills. :rolleyes:

The street is probably named after the Hungarian filly Kincsem ( born 1874) who won 54 races from 54 starts, in Hungary, Austria, Germany, France, and England. Kincsem means "my treasure". My big interest is analysing thoroughbred horse pedigrees.

http://www.tbheritage.com/Portraits/Kincsem.html

Dave, Are you playing poker in Baden-Baden?

The Grosser Volkswagen Preis Von Baden is run over 12 furlongs at Iffezheim Racecourse, Baden-Baden, in Germany on Sunday, September 3, 2006, on the last day of the six-day "Grosse Woche" Festival. The track is eight miles west from the centre of Baden-Baden on the edge of the Black Forest. It has been compared to Deauville in France because of the relaxed holiday atmosphere and to Ascot in England because of its wooded area. The illustrious contest dates back to 1858, although there have been a number of years, including during the two World Wars, when the race was not run, and the 2006 event is the 134th renewal. During the 19th century, Kincsem, the best horse to come out of Hungary, captured the Grosser Preis Von Baden three times between 1877 and 1879.

I figured as much. I knew the first part (it used to be in your sig) but I didn't get the connection between the horse and the town. Iffezheim is a big village/small town outside Baden-Baden: I wasn't playing poker there, never have. Just visiting family in Germany and I travelled through it on my way to the airport. Then again on the way back when it was too foggy to run a horse race, never mind for a plane to take off.

Do you recognize any of the other street names here? The Benazet-Rennen is apparently the name of one of the races there, so that explains that one. Don't know if any of the other names are horse related.



click for bigger version, Kincsemstrasse is at the bottom.

bohsman

Dereks a nice guy and all but at the end of the day he is running an illegal club, he knew that from the start, the plan was always to go up through the courts, if he can get it to the European courts he will, they must be making a fortune to make this whortwhile, hoping to keep cleaning up untill the poker boom dies down?

kincsem

RoundTower wrote:

Do you recognize any of the other street names here? The Benazet-Rennen is apparently the name of one of the races there, so that explains that one. Don't know if any of the other names are horse related.

Most of the street names in the bottom left of the map have horse connections.

Oleanderstrasse: Oleander (1924), One of the best horses ever to race in germany, winner of 19 of 23 starts. Won the Grosser Preis von Baden three times, equaling Kincsem’s winning series.
Orsinistrasse: Orsini (1954) Germany's 1958 Horse of the Year, winner of 14 of 26 starts.
Waldffiedstrasse: Waldfried stud established in 1903, was home to great sires Dark Ronald (1905) Herold (1917), Birkhahn (1945).
Benazetstrasse: Following the death of his father Jacques in 1848, Edouard Bénazet became the manager of the Casino Baden-Baden.
Kincsemstrasse: Named after a famous Irish poker player.:p

hotspur

Well you likely quite correct Doc that I shouldn't be calling him a moron, and he may be an extremely nice guy but he's fighting the battle in the worst way possible. My instinct was that he was using the legal case as a form of promotion for the gutshot site. I certainly went to it for the 1st time during this case, anyone else? If you care about the integrity and public perception of poker then you don't engineer a high profile case where the public and media perception is guaranteed to be "Poker ruled by court to be a game of chance!" The case was unwinnable so what was he up to?

I believe that he is being entirely disingenuous in his fighting of this case which in my opinion was a foregone conclusion. I'm not sure about what Bohsman said as I'm not sure about European courts ruling on UK gaming law which doesn't involve restrictions on free movement of goods and services across borders, but I'm no expert on European legal jurisdiction.

As for him being made an example of my understanding is that this is almost entirely his decision and will irrespective of the fact that certain casino people were pushing for his prosecution. As anyone caught for a minor traffic offence knows, there are a multitude of ways it can go depending on your attitude.

Imposter

Imo (and far from legal expert opinion at that) he must have known he was going to lose the first case but surely his appeal will hinge on the skill AND luck that was forced on him in the first case. Surely he can argue that most sports/games can have skill AND luck and therefore the judges must actually have a look at the law that was used against poker in this case while also looking deeply enough at poker so that they can understand how much luck or skill is involved. Something like that can't be bad for poker imo.

Fatboydim

I think we have to be honest about this and ask ourselves is poker a form of gambling. And the answer has to be yes. Because it involves luck. We can all argue that the best players will in and that skill will out... But we cannot argue that only skillfull players play. We all feed on fish and for the fish it's a gambliing game. I hear it all the time as someone says - "Sure I know I'm behind but let's gamble." In fact only 5 - 10% of poker players are winning players. So 90% of people who play poker are presumably not skillfull. It's a game that makes no sense without money. Whereas examples such as Chess and Bridge can be played and enjoyed without money being involved. In fact before I ever played poker I played a lot of backgammon... But not once did I play it for money.

We have to be realistic here.

Sangre

He was always going to lose the jury trial. He is completely right to appeal this.

This also can't get to any European Court. Unless it somehow infringes the ECHR