Career competition!

newestUser

Since I left my undergrad course (6 years ago!), my relationship with almost all of my friends has changed dramatically because of the paths our careers have taken. Money and job sectors/titles have caused jealousy and resentment between us. eg You're a loser because you earn 30,000 straight out of college, you're lazy because you're a teacher, your work is unimportant compared to mine because I'm working on a project worth 25 million, or turning housework into a competition which allows the "winner" the right to insult the competence of the "losers" in their careers.

How competitive are other people with regards to their careers with their friends? Just wondering what other peoples experiences were. I'm not friends with these people anymore btw.

petes

I couldn't give a ****e to be honest. I don't really talk about work when I'm talking to friends, and vice versa. I know the type you are talking about though.

r3nu4l

These days, with the growing dependence on consumerism for status, I find that people tend to judge you on the type of car you drive, where you go on hiolidays, what type of property you bought and where you bought it etc.

I think some amount of comparison amongst old college friends is inevitable, especially if you were all in the same year and doing the same course. I have a friend who attained a first class honours degree and bemoans the fact that the class dosser who barely scraped a third class honour is earning twice what he is.

Personally, I'm glad that some of my friends are doing very well for themselves:) but I'm not all that concerned by it. I'm too busy looking at ways to improve my own situation to bother thinking about others.

MarkR

Not at all tbh. I do my best and I'm sure they do too. Your friends must be great at parties. :rolleyes:

User45701

actually i do have a problem with all this.

At one stage i earned quite a bit for my age was 19/20 at the time and had 700 a week after tax and i didnt brag or anything

anyway got in fight with the boss lost that job just have your standard wage now but one or two of my friends have now started to brag/boast about how much they get which i find annoys me quite a lot

shane86

Its all snobbery. Id bet my mother would prefer I went to college for four years and became a teacher, rather than earn roughly the same/possibly more by becoming a Dublin Bus driver.

I didnt hugely like college, too many pretentious people like you mentioned at it. The fellow drop outs I hung around with are by and large doing fairly well.

the_syco

My friends work in all sorts of jobs, so f**k it. Those that do compare their job to mine don't see me that much:rolleyes:

kevmy

It's my first year out of college and I'm doing a masters so feck all money in that but I enjoy it and hope it will lead to good money. I didn't feel like joining the workforce straight away. Most of my class doing different masters/PhD's/further education with varying degrees of money. Some are working minimum wage in shops or got "proper" jobs. But money hasn't been an issue between us as of yet. If money does come up it's more of a jokey "you should have plenty of money with that job of yours etc." rather than malicious or competitive.

Other friends who finished college a couple of years ahead of me are making anywhere between E25,000 - E40,000. Again money isn't an issue. We all cut out cloth to suit our finances and all of us have some financial restraints.

Doesn't matter to me what job ya do as long as your not a d1ckhead. IMO they average out the same ammount per population no matter what job or wage bracket you're in.

connundrum

I've just accepted a new job and when and friends ring, I tell them as its my bit of 'news'. The conversation has gone something like this, after 4 phonecalls in a row..

Friend: Heya, any news for me
Me: Yeah, just accepted a new job round the corner from my house. Wohoo!
Friend: Ah deadly, whats the money like?
Me: Eh.. er...

There was a time when what you earned was your own business, but now it seems to be part of the considered public domain. I know that I don't have to tell, and generally don't. I just think its a sign of the times that within 2 sentences I'm being asked what my money is.

Is it jelousy or is it nosyness?

Smellyirishman

connundrum wrote:

Is it jelousy or is it nosyness?

Making conversation? Out of interest?

When going for the job, were you interested in what it would pay?

I don't think it's rude for a friend to ask what your making, if you don't want to tell them then just say so, or generalise it into "good" or what have you. I doubt your friends were asking for a look at your accounts.

zuutroy

newestUser wrote:

Since I left my undergrad course (6 years ago!), my relationship with almost all of my friends has changed dramatically because of the paths our careers have taken. Money and job sectors/titles have caused jealousy and resentment between us. eg You're a loser because you earn 30,000 straight out of college, you're lazy because you're a teacher, your work is unimportant compared to mine because I'm working on a project worth 25 million, or turning housework into a competition which allows the "winner" the right to insult the competence of the "losers" in their careers.

How competitive are other people with regards to their careers with their friends? Just wondering what other peoples experiences were. I'm not friends with these people anymore btw.

Glad they're not my mates. My lot range from pilots, architects, to office managers, to mechanics, to career unemployeders. Nobody gives a flying **** what the others earn. There's no snobbery at all. I myself chose an academic career over earning a lot of money because I'm a lazy bugger and dont like corporate life and bosses.

Pappa-eat-peach

Hmmmm...I honestly haven't a clue what my school-mates are doing now, nor my classmates from the second last college. I would be a tad curious as to where everybody is or where they got to, but I'd be happy for them if they are doing well.:)

From my last college (of which I dropped out), most went into a job similiar in pay and conditions as the one I have now (even though they are more qualified than me education-wise) or else they have gone travelling.

I think that there is great disillusionment out there with young people and college/career. We are nearly bred through (mis)education to become cogs performing "steady, secure, pensionable" jobs which fail to give many life's full lustre (wow, profound or what?:D ).

Therefore, if you dislike your job, you try to make the best of it and see how you rank with others? Maybe that is where some people are coming from? Their lack of pride or enthusiasm for their career, manifests itself in externalising their frustration, and comparing themselves to others in fiscal matters?

Surely, pride in workmanship, and comparing oneselves own output to a peer's is a far healthier mode of expression? For at least you may learn things from how others do things successfully?

Advice to the "young'uns": do something that you enjoy as a career, and don't follow the herd always.:) You will perform better at something that you enjoy (maybe even fiscally).

newestUser

It's been my experience that when someone wants to know what you're earning, they're the type that get jealous and hung up on money and status.

Any of my friends who asked straight out what I was earning turned out the be jealous and resentful if you earned more than them, or smug gloaters if they earned more than you. If someone asks me how much I earn, I'd get the impression that they either already are fully-fledged bastards, or are well on the way to becoming one.

I have baggage.

At one stage, I would have considered the "how much do you earn" question to be innocent. After seeing how hung up and petty people can be over money, and how it's only people with psychological issues about money who ask this question, I don't consider it to be conversational, isn't-this-lovely-weather-we're-having type small talk.

Smellyirishman wrote:

Making conversation? Out of interest?

When going for the job, were you interested in what it would pay?

I don't think it's rude for a friend to ask what your making, if you don't want to tell them then just say so, or generalise it into "good" or what have you. I doubt your friends were asking for a look at your accounts.

r3nu4l

I remember when I worked as a post-doctoral scientist, our salary was determined by the research project grant and was a matter of public knowledge in most cases.

However, we soon discovered that there was a huge (I mean massive) discrepancy in salaries from these grants. We were all qualified to the same level, with the same experience, mostly doing exactly the same type of work and having the same skill set and yet some people were earning €10,000 less than me and others €5,000 more than me.

This is where it can be useful to know what your colleagues (or friends in a similar job) are earning. It gives you a better idea of what you could be earning and allows you to engage in better negotiations in your annual review.

To sum up If your friends work in a similar job to you, it could be mutually beneficial to you both. I've known people who thought they were doing great until they discovered what other people in the same job earned, they got new jobs and were much happier with the result

newestUser

Well okay that's fair enough. But if people don't work in the same job or sector as you, and are still probing to see how much you earn? That sets off alarm bells in my head.

Miguel_Sanchez

Sounds like your friends are obnoxious - how do you stand them?

Personally I'm really pleased for my friends when they do well. But as for competition, well we slag each other all the time but not about our jobs. Some of my mates are accountants, some bankers, some students, some filmmakers, some artists, some teachers, some work in retail, some are on the dole. We're a pretty wide ranging bunch but I don't think any of us consider ourselves 'better' than anyone because of what we do.

r3nu4l

I agree with you absolutely. Sometimes it is also brought about by a friend seeing that you can afford a Car/PS3/90-inch plasma, whatever and they can't hence the wondering. Most people never seem to consider that perhaps all this new stuff was bought on a loan for which the friend is paying back a huge lump of interest.

For me, I think it's far better to focus on increasing your own earnings before looking at what others (may) have.

scojones

I'm not competitive with my friends in any way. I don't care if I have a better or worse job than they do, or get paid more or less. It's all materialistic. I currently live a happy life and that's all that matters to me.

shane86

connundrum wrote:

I've just accepted a new job and when and friends ring, I tell them as its my bit of 'news'. The conversation has gone something like this, after 4 phonecalls in a row..

Friend: Heya, any news for me
Me: Yeah, just accepted a new job round the corner from my house. Wohoo!
Friend: Ah deadly, whats the money like?
Me: Eh.. er...

There was a time when what you earned was your own business, but now it seems to be part of the considered public domain. I know that I don't have to tell, and generally don't. I just think its a sign of the times that within 2 sentences I'm being asked what my money is.

Is it jelousy or is it nosyness?

Whats so private about it? Get out of the mindset of the old man with the money under his matress. My mates know what I earn per year after tax. I know what they earn. Hell, we all know how much the other roughly has in the bank. People ask how much your earning because they want to know if your being used or not. If I ask my mate how much hes earning and he says 21K per year, is it not helpful if I say "My other mate is doing pretty much the same work as you for 25K a year, Ill put you in contact see if he can sort you work". Jesus like! Maybe it is a sign of the times, seeing as I cant imagine how a couple earning less than 50-60K between them could afford a family and a house.

One thing I dislike is that internal job ads in work never mention the wage for a promotion position. Presumably so we dont know what the people already in that position are earning, even though you get a rough ballpark figure of it anyway.

digitally-yours

zuutroy wrote:

Glad they're not my mates. My lot range from pilots, architects, to office managers, to mechanics, to career unemployeders. Nobody gives a flying **** what the others earn. There's no snobbery at all. I myself chose an academic career over earning a lot of money because I'm a lazy bugger and dont like corporate life and bosses.

I really admire you for being so streight forward and admiting that you dont have good job coz u dont want and u are happy with being lazy

Lot of people wont admit this and will moan about other things

You really have a higher level of awareness

all in all i would say ur comments are sound as a pound.

newestUser

At first, I thought this was an attempt to wind someone up. Now, I can't tell whether this is so or if the sentiment is genuine but clumsily expressed.

digitally-yours wrote:

I really admire you for being so streight forward and admiting that you dont have good job coz u dont want and u are happy with being lazy

Lot of people wont admit this and will moan about other things

You really have a higher level of awareness

all in all i would say ur comments are sound as a pound.

phantom_lord

meh, I hope to be a poker pro, and my degree's only a back-up. That'll be a fun career competition in years to come...

ambro25

newestUser wrote:

I'm not friends with these people anymore btw.

Good for you

newestUser wrote:

Just wondering what other peoples experiences were.

A friend is someone who will not judge you on your personal choices (career, car, house, and such other nonsense), no matter what, and certainly not play the social keepy-uppies game with you, but who will rejoice when you do well, and help and commiserate when you don't.

This isn't idealistic twaddle, but my real-life experience. I don't know if it exists in English, but there's a saying in France, something like "a man's true friends are only ever found in times of utter adversity" and friendship, to me, is very similar to marriage: "for better and for worse".

Going by the above, I'm very comfortable admitting that I have many acquaintances, but very few friends. The best of those have seen me very well off, very poor, high up the corporate ladder, unemployed with an Employment Tribunal case, with a €50k motor and with a €250 banger (alternate/repeat several times over ), and they are still proud to be my friends, just as I'm proud to be theirs.

'Tis the way it should be, in my very humble opinion.

00112984

It comes up a lot with my friends and I find it quite interesting. Out of my two best friends, one is a pharmacist and the other is a solicitor. I left college after first year and never went back but instead took a less usual career move and have progressed very well in my industry.

My two friends try to better eachother over how much they earn but I never get involved. Simply because I earn more than twice what either of them do. Neither of them know it- they just presume my boyfriend pays for our home, cars, holidays, my jewellery etc. (Fact is, I earn more than him too). I always have a nice little investment portfolio going.

The result? I'm all smug because I like knowing what I know, they feel good because they don't realise that they're not earning as much as me and, here's the clincher-
When we get together, one of them always insists on paying for dinner because they presume they're earning so much more than me. I don't always let them pay but I do get a kick out of it.

InFront

It's just natural competitiveness, there's nothing really wrong with it. Performance at work is just a continuation of work-performance at school and college, the same way a lot of you probably compared yourselves to your classmates and colleagues in university and ranked yourselves according to your grades.

I'm still in college and there certainly is a competitive nature to the course. there are very high achievers who excel in exams and will get first class honours, then there are middle of the road guys, then there are low performers and then there are those who fail everything! We all rank ourselves accordingly and know where most people are, it's simply a mater of sorting out your competition and being aware of who's ahead of you in the pecking order. that is a completely natural thing, I don't see why it should end after college. It's probably completely harmless.

Black Swan

r3nu4l wrote:

These days, with the growing dependence on consumerism for status, I find that people tend to judge you on the type of car you drive, where you go on hiolidays, what type of property you bought and where you bought it etc.

Reminds me of an old chidren's song. "My dog's bigger than your dog! My dog's bigger than yours..." Do we ever grow up? Or are we still kids inside with an adult candy coating?

connundrum

shane86 wrote:

Whats so private about it? Get out of the mindset of the old man with the money under his matress.

The point is that it is my business, mine, and not anyone elses. If I choose to tell someone then it will be my decision to do so. I really don't like that the situation has evolved to the point where I am considered to be rude if I choose not to divulge my earnings!

shane86 wrote:

My mates know what I earn per year after tax. I know what they earn. Hell, we all know how much the other roughly has in the bank.

Fair play to you and your mates, I'm sure that works great for you. Please don't consider your situation to be the norm though.

shane86 wrote:

People ask how much your earning because they want to know if your being used or not. If I ask my mate how much hes earning and he says 21K per year, is it not helpful if I say "My other mate is doing pretty much the same work as you for 25K a year, Ill put you in contact see if he can sort you work". Jesus like!

This sounds too good to be true, again it might be the situation with you and your friends, but I can assure you that it is not common place. People want to know what you're earning out of competitiveness, as in if your mate is in a similar job with similar experience, he will want to be earning the same similar salary to you, if not more. This doesn't take into consideration whether or not you're actually better at the job than him, or whether you got a luckier break than him.

I dunno, I think you earn what your worth in any position, and you shouldn't look to your friends to benchmark yourself.

newestUser

InFront wrote:

It's just natural competitiveness, there's nothing really wrong with it. Performance at work is just a continuation of work-performance at school and college, the same way a lot of you probably compared yourselves to your classmates and colleagues in university and ranked yourselves according to your grades.

I'm still in college and there certainly is a competitive nature to the course. there are very high achievers who excel in exams and will get first class honours, then there are middle of the road guys, then there are low performers and then there are those who fail everything! We all rank ourselves accordingly and know where most people are, it's simply a mater of sorting out your competition and being aware of who's ahead of you in the pecking order. that is a completely natural thing, I don't see why it should end after college. It's probably completely harmless.

If something disrupts relationships between friends, causes people to undermine each other, turns friends/family against each other, I wouldn't say it's harmless.

My brother was punched in the face at a new years party by an accountant who took issue with the fact the he was a bus driver and earned more than him. Is this behaviour harmless?

I didn't notice this behaviour amongst my friends until we left college and started in "proper" jobs. I agree that a certain level of competition is healthy, but there comes a point where friendly competition turns into people stabbing each other in the back, trying to undermine each other, spite, resentment, etc.

I would also say that even though you can differentiate yourself from your classmates/friends by exam marks, you're still in college. You're all at the same stage of your training/careers, you're all of a similar age, etc. In the "competition" of life none of you are in actual fact outstripping any of the others yet. It was my experience that once me and my peers left college, and there were marked differences in what people earned, the prestige/status of their job, that was when the real point scoring began. If you take two 20 year olds living at home with their parents, going to college, working part-time, neither could claim to be more successful than the other. One may have better exam results than the other, but that doesn't really count as career success. Fast forward 5/10 years later, one earns 100,000 a year, has a nice house in a good area, and a luxury car. The other dropped out of their career 1/2 years after college, had a "quarter-life crisis", travelled/bummed around trying to find themselves, decided to retrain in another field by going back to college and being a broke student. There is a *big* difference in these peoples lifestyles, circumstances, and their status in other peoples eyes, and there's plenty of potential for resentment, jealousy, point-scoring, etc.

Long story short: whether you get straight As or are repeating first year for the fourth time, you're still students, and have not achieved anything career wise. You're all on the same rung of the ladder. After a group of friends have been working a while, there may be big differences between them money/status wise. And that can lead to problems.

connundrum

newestUser wrote:

Long story short: whether you get straight As or are repeating first year for the fourth time, you're still students, and have not achieved anything career wise. You're all on the same rung of the ladder. After a group of friends have been working a while, there may be big differences between them money/status wise. And that can lead to problems.

Quoted for truth

Mrs_Doyle

I have never volunteered information about my salary, but if someones asks me what I earn, I just can't lie about it.

My friend is very competitive though, she only told me what she was earning when she realised it was more then I was earning.

I am not too competitive with regard to 'whose doing the best', mainly because I have yet to settle on my 'real' career path.

I have a 'nice job' with a 'nice' company and I earn a 'nice' salary, but this isn't what I want to do for life. It isn't even what i want to be doing in a years time, so what does it matter?

I would genuinely rather be earning less, and be on the bottom of a ladder that I really wanted to climb, then to be earning a nice salary, and half way up a ladder I have no real interest in.

event

only person who knows what i earn are my employers, the tax man and my girlfriend.

my friends wouldnt be told, its none of their business. they could be on more, they could be on less, i dont know and dont care. They do go on about how much the have to owe in loans, something i never disclose.

its just a matter of keeping up with the joneses