Mark 3:29

Thomas_S_Hunterson

but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin

Just as a matter of interest, among christian folk, how seriously is this fairly explicit statement taken, because to me it reads that if you've ever been an atheist/member of another religion, you're on the highway to hell and there aint no hope for you here.

It would seem to imply that if you're having doubts about atheism, don't bother because you've already burnt your bridges

Zillah

I deny the holy spirit.

Scofflaw

sean_keevey wrote:

Just as a matter of interest, among christian folk, how seriously is this fairly explicit statement taken, because to me it reads that if you've ever been an atheist/member of another religion, you're on the highway to hell and there aint no hope for you here.

It would seem to imply that if you're having doubts about atheism, don't bother because you've already burnt your bridges

I think you need to do what Zillah just did...

In any case, of course, what matters is whether it's true. Quite aside from the question of God's existence in the first place, the Bible's track record doesn't really provide me with great confidence...

cordially,
Scofflaw

Dave!

It's probably a metaphor for something....... Not to be taken literally and so on

Beruthiel

Zillah wrote:

I deny the holy spirit.

I could never deny the holy spirit, in fact, I'd go as far as to say, I love it to bits. It's the highway to Heaven for me folks!

maitri

sean_keevey wrote:

Just as a matter of interest, among christian folk, how seriously is this fairly explicit statement taken, because to me it reads that if you've ever been an atheist/member of another religion, you're on the highway to hell and there aint no hope for you here.

It would seem to imply that if you're having doubts about atheism, don't bother because you've already burnt your bridges

I am not a Christian, but as far as I know I don’t think this verse is generally interpreted like you suggest by most Christian churches (But maybe by Jehovah's Witnesses). The question of what is meant by “the sin against the Holy Spirit” has puzzled theologians for many centuries and, as I understand it, it has been given different explanations in different times and by different churches. In some churches it was generally interpreted as “committing suicide” because the body is said to be the “Temple of the Holy Spirit”, but nowadays suicide is normally seen also by the Christian churches more in terms of “psychological illness” than of “sin”. The way I was explained this notion when I was a Catholic teenager (I'm an apostate:) ) was that sinning against “the Holy Spirit” is the same as “Knowing for sure and with absolute certainty that God exists and that God is Love and yet choose to repudiate God with open eyes to the consequences out of sheer malice”.

Here’s another Christian explanation:

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/unpardonablesin.html


However there are some verses in the Bible that are very pessimistic on behalf of those of us who are apostates and actually compare us with dogs and pigs:

“If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit,"and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud." (2. Peter 2:20-22)

“It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.” (Hebrews 6:4-6)
(Note the strict premises, though.)

And this verse is not very optimistic for anyone :

“But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” (Rev 21:8)

Some verses that contradicts the idea that backsliders and apostates (and almost everybody else) will necessarily be dammed forever:

“A voice was heard upon the high places, weeping and supplications of the children of Israel: for they have perverted their way, and they have forgotten the LORD their God. Return, ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backslidings.” (Jer 3:20-22)

"the one who comes to me I will by no means cast out" (John 6:37)


And of course the parable of the prodigal son (Luke 15:11-32):

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2015;&version=9;


These verses tell about a more forgiving God.

stevejazzx

sean_keevey wrote:

Just as a matter of interest, among christian folk, how seriously is this fairly explicit statement taken, because to me it reads that if you've ever been an atheist/member of another religion, you're on the highway to hell and there aint no hope for you here.

It would seem to imply that if you're having doubts about atheism, don't bother because you've already burnt your bridges

oOOH the holy spirit, is he somehow more important than the other 2. Great fun the bible.
It's mython python again isn't it

Cleese:"Right, you can sin against god..thats ok"
Palin "What about Jesus?
Cleese: Ehmm, well it's not recommended but again you should be ok
Palin: Holy ghost?
Cleese: Not sure about him actually, he's a bit of a mystery
Palin: Holy spirit?
Cleese: No. No way. can't be done, sin against him and it's your bacon me lad.
Palin: Why is he more important?
Cleese: he's not, he's just very sensitive and very vindictive.
pALIN: Oh......

maitri

Speaking of the sin against the Holy Spirit, I just came across this (know it's slightly off topic, but anyway...):

V. The Unpardonable Sin

This is the sin against the Holy Ghost: --
To speak of bloody power as right divine,
And call on God to guard each vile chief's house,
And for such chiefs, turn men to wolves and swine: --

To go forth killing in White Mercy's name,
Making the trenches stink with spattered brains,
Tearing the nerves and arteries apart,
Sowing with flesh the unreaped golden plains.

In any Church's name, to sack fair towns,
And turn each home into a screaming sty,
To make the little children fugitive,
And have their mothers for a quick death cry, --

This is the sin against the Holy Ghost:
This is the sin no purging can atone: --
To send forth rapine in the name of Christ: --
To set the face, and make the heart a stone.

(Vachel Lindsay ).

aidan24326

I doubt many christians, bible fundamentalists aside, take this one too seriously. Or do they? The 'holy spirit' is so vague and indefinable (bit like god really) that it would be impossible to say how and when you would be sinning against 'it' save for your own (or your religion's) interpretation of what that might mean. And as usual the interpretations will be wildly varied, contradictory, sometimes intentionally vague and always completely meaningless.

Zillah

stevejazzx wrote:

Cleese:"Right, you can sin against god..thats ok"
Palin "What about Jesus?
Cleese: Ehmm, well it's not recommended but again you should be ok
Palin: Holy ghost?
Cleese: Not sure about him actually, he's a bit of a mystery
Palin: Holy spirit?
Cleese: No. No way. can't be done, sin against him and it's your bacon me lad.
Palin: Why is he more important?
Cleese: he's not, he's just very sensitive and very vindictive.
pALIN: Oh......

Hahaha

“Knowing for sure and with absolute certainty that God exists and that God is Love and yet choose to repudiate God with open eyes to the consequences out of sheer malice”.

Oooh, malice! You don't hear that word often enough these days.

I fnd it a very ironic argument considering that the bible portrays Yaweh as the most malignant being I have read in most fiction.

Owen

I'm amazed with the amount of contradictions in the Bible, that the Religious types' heads don't assplode! Here, let me sort this out :

Excelsior

My professional life is squandered, as many of you would conclude, in studying the Bible. Of course I have come to different conclusions to you but even the idea that the Scriptures are full of contradictions has always struck me as insanely beside the point.

The Bible can only be "full of contradictions" if it a book composed of propositional truths. A digression on Christian epistemology would no doubt be interesting to some, ignored by many but it would certainly be off topic.

To answer the OP, to blaspheme the Holy Spirit has traditionally been understood to mean the walking away from real faith. When one becomes a Christian the Holy Spirit "dwells" in you. To blaspheme is to disregard this and walk away from God having once known him.

Thomas_S_Hunterson

Excelsior wrote:

To answer the OP, to blaspheme the Holy Spirit has traditionally been understood to mean the walking away from real faith. When one becomes a Christian the Holy Spirit "dwells" in you. To blaspheme is to disregard this and walk away from God having once known him.

Guilty as charged;)

Thanks for the different opinions.

Sangre

So an atheist can't do this. Since they don't believe exists they can hardly blashpheme against him?

Scofflaw

Excelsior wrote:

My professional life is squandered, as many of you would conclude, in studying the Bible. Of course I have come to different conclusions to you but even the idea that the Scriptures are full of contradictions has always struck me as insanely beside the point.

The Bible can only be "full of contradictions" if it a book composed of propositional truths. A digression on Christian epistemology would no doubt be interesting to some, ignored by many but it would certainly be off topic.

To answer the OP, to blaspheme the Holy Spirit has traditionally been understood to mean the walking away from real faith. When one becomes a Christian the Holy Spirit "dwells" in you. To blaspheme is to disregard this and walk away from God having once known him.

That probably means I'm alright then (well, on this single count, anyway). I've been an atheist since I was about 7 years old, so I have never actually 'known Him'.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Dave!

Take a look at Fox news taking issue with the Blasphemy Challenge
http://richarddawkins.net/article,581,Blasphemy-Challenge-on-FOX,Brian-Flemming

Excelsior

Sangre wrote:

So an atheist can't do this. Since they don't believe exists they can hardly blashpheme against him?

Well I think you can technically argue that. The thrust of the passage in its context however is that the only thing that can't be forgiven is the refusal to acknowledge God. If God actually exists, that is eminently sensible, I suppose.

Seeing as you don't think God exists, I don't imagine you have spent many restless nights considering the Spirit's sensitivities Sangre.

Tim Robbins

sean_keevey wrote:

Just as a matter of interest, among christian folk, how seriously is this fairly explicit statement taken, because to me it reads that if you've ever been an atheist/member of another religion, you're on the highway to hell and there aint no hope for you here.

It would seem to imply that if you're having doubts about atheism, don't bother because you've already burnt your bridges

Let's create a sticky with our favourite quotes from the Bible.

Suff

Just out of curiosity.....
if your an atheist why worry about heaven and hell (as shown in your reply in this thread) if you dont believe in a GOD?
some of you are showing what could be sumed to...
"Yeah,... I dont believe in GOD /HolySpirit/Juses,...ect even o I'm not going to Hell"
I find this funny

Dave!

Suff wrote:

Just out of curiosity.....
if your an atheist why worry about heaven and hell (as shown in your reply in this thread) if you dont believe in a GOD?
some of you are showing what could be sumed to...
"Yeah,... I dont believe in GOD /HolySpirit/Juses,...ect even o I'm not going to Hell"
I find this funny

Not sure who you're referring to here, presumably it's the original poster though.

Perhaps he's unsure of his beliefs (which is fine), and feels as though he can't commit to atheism just in case?

Maybe he's just curious as to why the church is all loving and forgiving and so on, yet if you say this one thing, there's no going back? ie. a priest would hear a rapist's confession, and then he'd be on his way to heaven; yet if this passage is to be taken as it seems, then an atheist is never getting in.

Me personally, I'm comfortable enough as an atheist, so I have no worries about getting into heaven or hell, because they don't exist.

"Yeah,... I dont believe in GOD /HolySpirit/Juses,...ect even o I'm not going to Hell"

I'd say most people who say that (haven't seen any in this thread mind you) are being ironic.

Scofflaw

Suff wrote:

Just out of curiosity.....
if your an atheist why worry about heaven and hell (as shown in your reply in this thread) if you dont believe in a GOD?
some of you are showing what could be sumed to...
"Yeah,... I dont believe in GOD /HolySpirit/Juses,...ect even o I'm not going to Hell"
I find this funny

Perhaps atheists are willing to consider the possibility that they may be wrong? I know I'm open to the possibility - and if I am wrong, it seems likely I will be due some kind of punishment from some kind of deity...they all seem to dislike atheists!

cordially,
Scofflaw

Suff

Scofflaw wrote:

and if I am wrong, it seems likely I will be due some kind of punishment from some kind of deity...they all seem to dislike atheists!

If you think about it,....Why would GOD let you in to Heaven?
You dont believe in him so why should you be rewarded, after all Heaven is a reward. before someone says: "so if your a Murderer and do believe in GOD you go to heaven!?" its not simply a belief that would get you in...I can only relate to Islam...your Faith in GOD is like a reminder that you have to be good to yourslef and to the people around you, so everything you do in your life contribute to your "Life Book" which will be Judged by the Creator on Judgment Day [to put it simply].

GOD is all Just, all Forgiving, all Merciful and most Compassionate... so he'll forgive a soul where he see's fit.

In Islam, we believe GOD says he would forgive all sins except to be denied existence.

humanji

How can God be just if he allows so much suffering as to make people believe he doesn't exist and then punish them some more?

What if someone is tricked by what they believe is proof of another god. Are they to be punished because they simply didn't know better?

joe_chicken

Suff wrote:

GOD is ...all Forgiving... so he'll forgive a soul where he see's fit.

Anyone else see a contradiction there?

SonOfPerdition

Suff wrote:

GOD is all Just, all Forgiving, all Merciful and most Compassionate... so he'll forgive a soul where he see's fit.

In Islam, we believe GOD says he would forgive all sins except to be denied existence.

how petty of him.

Suff

humanji wrote:

How can God be just if he allows so much suffering as to make people believe he doesn't exist and then punish them some more?

Oh,..Thats' such a cliche, "Suffering and death on earth"...thats life. no one will have it perfect, we all go through the same aspects of life Love,happines, wealth, poverty and death.

What if someone is tricked by what they believe is proof of another god. Are they to be punished because they simply didn't know better?

Well each one of us have a chance to look and research whats out there until they find the path that suits them, If a person took Budasim, Sincetology, Christianity or Islam they would do so after they have research it over and found something they attracts them to it and that would be their choice, they would have to take reponsibility for their choice and actions.

Yes GOD is all Just, he would Judge people on their Belief and how they lived their life, t is up to his "discretion" so to speak to forgive who and what sin...it will not be unjust as he created Justice.

SonofPerdition...try not to be soo negative and cynical until you do participate in the discussion with valid points.

Tar.Aldarion

lol..



^^good reply.


You seem very absolute that your religion is correct, based on?
Much like every religion has people like that.

Suff

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

^^good reply.

knowing it meant to be Sarcastic,....I'll say thank you.

You seem very absolute that your religion is correct, based on?
Much like every religion has people like that.

you have missed my point completely!
I believe in it as I have researched it and happy with what it has to offer me. just like you (I might presum) are happy to not have any faith in any diety. its your choice so you have to take responsibility for this action like I to mine.
thats my point !

SonOfPerdition

Suff wrote:

knowing it meant to be Sarcastic,....I'll say thank you.



you have missed my point completely!
I believe in it as I have researched it and happy with what it has to offer me. just like you (I might presum) are happy to not have any faith in any diety. its your choice so you have to take responsibility for this action like I to mine.
thats my point !

I'm probably shouldn't ask, but what did your research consist of?

Suff

SonOfPerdition wrote:

I'm probably shouldn't ask, but what did your research consist of?

Its ok to ask

I studied the three Scriptures, Torah, Injeel and the Qur'aan.
it did take some time, I've looked into their origins, teachings, differences and similarities and finaly the origin of the GOD idea... I recommend you read A History of God by Karen Armstrong.

Scofflaw

Suff wrote:

Oh,..Thats' such a cliche, "Suffering and death on earth"...thats life. no one will have it perfect, we all go through the same aspects of life Love,happines, wealth, poverty and death.

Hmm.

Suff wrote:

Well each one of us have a chance to look and research whats out there until they find the path that suits them, If a person took Budasim, Sincetology, Christianity or Islam they would do so after they have research it over and found something they attracts them to it and that would be their choice, they would have to take reponsibility for their choice and actions.

You don't seem to consider the possibility that after research, someone finds that atheism is the 'path'?

Suff wrote:

Yes GOD is all Just, he would Judge people on their Belief and how they lived their life, t is up to his "discretion" so to speak to forgive who and what sin...it will not be unjust as he created Justice.

Indeed. Presumably, then, His discretion can extend to forgiving atheists should He choose to do so...


cordially,
Scofflaw

Suff

Scofflaw wrote:

Hmm.

....What?

You don't seem to consider the possibility that after research, someone finds that atheism is the 'path'?

yes thats what I said. you find the path the suits you doing so you become responsible for that and your actions.

Indeed. Presumably, then, His discretion can extend to forgiving atheists should He choose to do so...

As far as my knowledge goes I dont think he will as I pointed out that GOD stated he will forgive all sins except to be deined existence.

Again...if you dont believe in a heaven, hell or GOD why so bothered to see if GOD would forgive you? I dont understand!

Scofflaw

Suff wrote:

....What?

It's an argument one hears from virtually every theist.

Suff wrote:

yes thats what I said. you find the path the suits you doing so you become responsible for that and your actions.

Fair enough - you just didn't mention it.

Suff wrote:

As far as my knowledge goes I dont think he will as I pointed out that GOD stated he will forgive all sins except to be deined existence.

Interesting that denial of God's existence is a sin more serious than any other, when it is also usually accepted that faith is hard.

Suff wrote:

Again...if you dont believe in a heaven, hell or GOD why so bothered to see if GOD would forgive you? I dont understand!

Well, to be honest, I'm not - I suffer from an absurdist sense of humour. If there should actually be a God of the Abrahamic variety, and He be as represented by the religious, He has a lot more to answer for than I ever will, though I lived a thousand years and murdered every day.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Tar.Aldarion

Suff wrote:

knowing it meant to be Sarcastic,....I'll say thank you.

No, no, I was pointing at my "lol..". Nothing about you.

you have missed my point completely!
I believe in it as I have researched it and happy with what it has to offer me. just like you (I might presum) are happy to not have any faith in any diety. its your choice so you have to take responsibility for this action like I to mine.
thats my point !

No, I don't think I miss it.
What I am asking is, that since you have done research into your religion, what were the things that convinced and made you so sure that it was true, as opposed to any other religion in particular?
Then I note that every religion has people that researched in thusly and came to the same conclusion about their religion.
In short, what made you believe in your religion after study etc.