Gut Shot Court Case

carfax

Anybody hear anything about the court case.

Just thought I heard on the radio..... they ruled that poker was a game of skill........woo hoo!

Anyone hear anything about this? Am I right or did I hear it all wrong?

Ste05

carfax wrote:

Just thought I heard on the radio..... they ruled that poker was a game of skill........woo hoo!

Oh I hope you heard right, that is great precedence for the game, it might even help slightly with the new legislation in America.

Rb

Oh they won it?Excellent.

5starpool

I'da say anyone that can check on the gutshot.com forums would be able to say if they won or not. I can't check from work. I'd personally be surprised if it is over already, but I don't know much about legal matters though.

Killme00

The judge must have been some super aggressive luckbox with a dent in his head from the deck

You gotta love it

carfax

No think I got it wrong.....Nothing on the gutshot forum anyway......It was my girlfriend that told me the ruling was in and added to that some wishful thinking on my part.....Oops, sorry if I got anyones hopes up there.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Lafortezza

http://www.gutshot.com/bforum/showthread.php?t=20094&page=3

A quick scan of the forums doesn't show anything about the case being decided or that they had made a ruling.

http://www.gutshot.com/e/article.php?full=1050&limitb=0&limitt=16&show=s

5starpool

Banned for a month for pretending stuff.

bigreddogue

If poker was declared to be a game of skill, would that then mean the revenue commissioners would need to have a rethink?

carfax

5starpool wrote:

Banned for a month for pretending stuff.

Hee hee, just had to keep the mods on their toes.......Please delete the thread.....please.

shoutman

bigreddogue wrote:

If poker was declared to be a game of skill, would that then mean the revenue commissioners would need to have a rethink?

shhhhhhhh!!!!!!

5starpool

If poker was declared a game of skill in the UK I don't think the revenue commissioners here would have anything to do with it.

30something

Jeeze, some posters wll do anything to start a new thread ....

karlh

unfortunately the prosecution only have to prove that poker is a game of luck AND skill which is what they are doing.

don't think the gutshot have a prayer tbh

Mellor

Really depends on the definiation of a game of mixed chance and skill.
roulette is a game of mixed chance and skill. (still unbeatable on a fair wheel)
Pokr is clearly above this in terms of skill

All games of skill will have some element of luck to them

karlh

Mellor wrote:

roulette is a game of mixed chance and skill.

It is!?

Mellor

the outcome is based on luck, but if you are smart with your betting (skill) than you can make more, or lose less i suppose
house still has an edge, and its mostly luck, but probably counts for something

NickyOD

I don't think It makes a difference if the gutshot win their case or not. I heard that as of the end of the year they won't be able to operate anyway because they haven't applied for a casino license and the deadline has passed for the application.

Oodges

Mellor wrote:

the outcome is based on luck, but if you are smart with your betting (skill) than you can make more, or lose less i suppose
house still has an edge, and its mostly luck, but probably counts for something

I think this applies to Blackjack but not to roulette.
Can you think of two different roulette betting strategies that have a different expected gain?

Mellor

Oodges wrote:

I think this applies to Blackjack but not to roulette.
Can you think of two different roulette betting strategies that have a different expected gain?

Betting the same amount.
Doubling your bet each time
And alternating between double and tripple.

There is also betting systems like betting on red and the street with most blacks etc


Or if you have enough time study the wheel and find its drop zone, and bet accordingly



All of these are still based on luck for the most part, but for arguments purpose (ie in court) you could say that they are skills, and poker although has an element of luck, is closer to games of skill than those of mixed skill and chance

karlh

walking can be considered a skill too but I don't think you could argue that the Lotto is a game of skill and chance just because you have to walk to the shop to get a ticket!

poker most certainly involves chance and the laws in the UK are very clear that regardless of it having an element of skill, Gutshot are operating illegally. Hopefully they'll get some funky judge who'll just see common sense and rule in their favour regardless.

Drakar

The expected outcome of roulette betting strategies are all the same (with the exception of the slight difference in the house edge depending on which type of bet you place [ie black/red vs all on lucky 7 for example]).

It will be interesting to see how this case works out, but it probably wont have any major effect outside of the case itself (I think the Gutshot will lose it).

hotspur

The courtcase is the biggest waste of time imaginable, everyone knows the outcome is almost inevitable.

Graham Trembath QC: “I’m not trying to assess the amount of skill and chance by percentage. Poker has skill and chance – we agree.”

All the talk of the relative contributions of skill and luck is irrelevant, they're just going through the motions with it cause they've nothing else to do. Gaming is defined as being a game of chance or part skill part chance in the legislation. The Gutshot is not a casino and they rake the pot a certain amount, so they're obviously operating illegally. Even the poker rooms in California cannot take a rake from pots.

I'm pretty sure no matter how funky the judge is he will rule in accordance with the law, anyway it's a jury trial, although they're pretty sure to be told what to do.

Mellor

There could be ten poker players on the jury, for a majority

lazlo

roulette wheels have maxmium betting limits to stop such strategies adn you would also need VERY deep pockets

Mellor wrote:

Betting the same amount.
Doubling your bet each time
And alternating between double and tripple.

There is also betting systems like betting on red and the street with most blacks etc


Or if you have enough time study the wheel and find its drop zone, and bet accordingly



All of these are still based on luck for the most part, but for arguments purpose (ie in court) you could say that they are skills, and poker although has an element of luck, is closer to games of skill than those of mixed skill and chance

ocallagh

For those who employ proper BR management skills and are better than the average player, there is nominal luck involved, no more than any other career.

carfax

hotspur wrote:

The courtcase is the biggest waste of time imaginable, everyone knows the outcome is almost inevitable.

Graham Trembath QC: “I’m not trying to assess the amount of skill and chance by percentage. Poker has skill and chance – we agree.”

All the talk of the relative contributions of skill and luck is irrelevant, they're just going through the motions with it cause they've nothing else to do. Gaming is defined as being a game of chance or part skill part chance in the legislation. The Gutshot is not a casino and they rake the pot a certain amount, so they're obviously operating illegally. Even the poker rooms in California cannot take a rake from pots.

I'm pretty sure no matter how funky the judge is he will rule in accordance with the law, anyway it's a jury trial, although they're pretty sure to be told what to do.

Didn't realise this was a pre-determined result......The Gutshot must have money to burn.

I suppose it will at least do something to make a few more people realise that poker is actually a game of skill.

BobSloane

ocallagh wrote:

For those who employ proper BR management skills and are better than the average player, there is nominal luck involved, no more than any other career.

Would bookmaking be described as a skill? I think it is as the people who set the odds are doing so based on information and generally giving the general public slightly less than the odds they should be getting. For example if a soccer match goes to penalties, I was checking online during the world cup and both teams were constantly being offered at 5/6 in a penalty shoot-out. In percentage terms this only adds up to 91% which means the punter is being screwed out of 9% of the possible outcomes. One of them has to win.

This in my opinion is one of the big skills in poker. Its really a bunch of people acting as bookmakers setting odds(or taking odds) for or from the other players. The good players are basing this on information(albeit sketchy) and the less skilled are taking and setting the incorrect odds.

Is there luck? Sure! But if you get your money in as a 3/2 favourite enough times you will win overall - this is a fact no matter how lucky or unlucky you perceive yourself to be.

If all they have to prove is that its a game of skill AND luck then really why are they bothering. Whats exhibit A going to be for the prosecution? Footage of Sam Farthas KK busting Greinsteins AA on High stakes poker? "Clearly he was lucky your honour!"

Or will they have a decrepit witness crying in the witness box about how his flopped straight got beaten by a runner runner flush.

"Sniff sniff - the chances were only about - sniff -5%"
*Gasp from the courtroom*
"No further questions your honour"

Once the bankroll management is correctly in place as ocallagh says you have the cushion to take the hits.

carfax

BobSloane wrote:

Or will they have a decrepit witness crying in the witness box about how his flopped straight got beaten by a runner runner flush.

"Sniff sniff - the chances were only about - sniff -5%"
*Gasp from the courtroom*
"No further questions your honour"

lol.