Crumlin pulls out of National Children's Hospital project

dajaffa

Story here: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/?jp=CWSNCWSNQLID

Basically the board of Crumlin hospital has decided to pull out of the planned new National Children's Hospital in protest due to it's planned location at the Mater Site.

Personally I support this as the site was one third smaller than the current Crumlin site, before taking into account that it would have to accommodate Tallaght and Temple Street. Due to laws regarding prisons helicopters can't land there + I can guarantee that this option would take much longer to complete than most of the other proposed sites.

One thing that the likes of politicians probably didn't take into account is the amount of staff that would be lost in the move. I know a huge number of nurses in Crumlin wouldn't have made the move + instead returned to general nursing as they've bought houses etc + wouldn't be willing to make their commute much longer than it already is.

kmick

The dogs in the street could see the Mater location was not going to work - the list of reasons is as long as ones arm - what is wrong with these politicians - are they sub-normal?

ballooba

That's another load of our money gone down the drain so.

Macy

kmick wrote:

what is wrong with these politicians - are they sub-normal?

Obviously, but then again the problems getting to and from the site probably don't look so bad from the back of a big car with a escort stopping traffic for you. I doubt Ahern and Co have much problem finding parking around the Mater either (Bertie probably still has his parking pass from when he used to work there anyway).

Drumm was on Primetime (and Harney before him on the news) dismissing the concerns about journey times saying the train links and the metro. So he thinks parents of children with Cancer in Galway are going to train it to Heuston, Luas to wherever the link to the metro will be, and then the metro to the Mater? This is just nonsense, just as the siting of the National Childrens Hospital in city centre is nonsense.

NewDubliner

dajaffa wrote:

One thing that the likes of politicians probably didn't take into account is the amount of staff that would be lost in the move. .

Sounds like something that's happened before?

fly_agaric

Macy wrote:

So he thinks parents of children with Cancer in Galway are going to train it to Heuston, Luas to wherever the link to the metro will be, and then the metro to the Mater?

I get what you are saying but that is an exaggeration. They could "train it" to Heuston and I'd assume they would then get a taxi to the Mater which is not a million miles away.
Would Crumlin or Tallaght be that much handier for people living outside Dublin?

Macy wrote:

This is just nonsense.

No matter what had been decided I think there would have been trouble over this.

AFAICR Temple St. was going to be rebuilt + plans were far advanced when this idea of having a single National Children's Hospital looked like it might scotch that.

I'd imagine that they (Temple St.) would also have been extremely angry if Tallaght or Crumlin (or somewhere else) had been chosen for the site of the hospital.

dajaffa

fly_agaric wrote:

I get what you are saying but that is an exaggeration. They could "train it" to Heuston and I'd assume they would then get a taxi to the Mater which is not a million miles away.
Would Crumlin or Tallaght be that much handier for people living outside Dublin?

Well I've worked in the area + traffic there is a disaster now, nevermind if the NCH was there too. Taxi fares would prove expensive for parents of children who had to spend a lot of time in hospital. Would it have been too difficult to locate it elsewhere within a reasonable distance of a train station + have a shuttle bus operating? I doubt it + you'd save an easy €200mil cause I can tell you now that the cost for building on the Mater site will be far higher than most of the other viable options that were available.

fly_agaric wrote:

No matter what had been decided I think there would have been trouble over this.

Well though making everybody happy would have proved impossible, the issues with the site chosen are very real. It's much smaller than the current Crumlin site, potential for any future expansion is limited + I'm wiling to bet that parking space will be minimal + there's an list a mile long of other issuse with the site. Other options were far more suitable.

fly_agaric wrote:

AFAICR Temple St. was going to be rebuilt + plans were far advanced when this idea of having a single National Children's Hospital looked like it might scotch that.

Yes but last year it was announced that Crumlin was to be rebuilt at a greenfiled site which was to be a much bigger development plan. Both hospitals need to be redeveloped asap as they are sub-standard but now a wait of 5 years plus will ensue. Building on a new site not located on the grounds of another hospital would result in a far quicker + cost-effective project.

fly_agaric wrote:

I'd imagine that they (Temple St.) would also have been extremely angry if Tallaght or Crumlin (or somewhere else) had been chosen for the site of the hospital.

Possibly but with respect it's far far smaller than Crumlin + far less people would have had issue with the decision.

Dilbert75

fly_agaric wrote:

I get what you are saying but that is an exaggeration. They could "train it" to Heuston and I'd assume they would then get a taxi to the Mater which is not a million miles away.
Would Crumlin or Tallaght be that much handier for people living outside Dublin?

An exaggeration, is it? Just get a train to Heuston, taxi to the Mater - seems simple.

But, unless you live near a train route, you have to travel to get to the train. Somehow. Unless you get on at the beginning of the train's journey, there's probably a fair chance that you won't get a seat.

When you've spent your several hours standing in a carriage, shared with possibly a hundred different people, your sick child (possibly immune surpressed due to either the illness or the treatment) will be in right order for the trip in the taxi to the Mater - where they'll find that there's not enough room, there are no outdoor spaces to make the place feel a little bit less like a prison (because the site is full of hospital) and where some of the country's most experienced childcare professionals are not working because it would have taken an extra two or three hours out of each working day to travel the extra distance.

John_C

Dilbert75 wrote:

But, unless you live near a train route, you have to travel to get to the train. Somehow. Unless you get on at the beginning of the train's journey, there's probably a fair chance that you won't get a seat.

These type of arguments apply whatever site had been chosen. Tallaght is hardly easier to get to than the Mater. You're getting a luas instead of a train or driving on the M50/Naas Road/Tallaght Bypass where traffic is hardly better.

This seems sour grapes from Crumlin. The decision went against them so they want another review in the hope that they do better next time.

williamb

John_C wrote:

These type of arguments apply whatever site had been chosen. Tallaght is hardly easier to get to than the Mater. You're getting a luas instead of a train or driving on the M50/Naas Road/Tallaght Bypass where traffic is hardly better.

This seems sour grapes from Crumlin. The decision went against them so they want another review in the hope that they do better next time.

First point :- if you're travelling from Galway, there is a substantial difference between trying to get to (say) the current Crumlin hospital site and trying to get to the Mater hospital site. The Mater site is part of the inner city. Dublin traffic in the inner city is gridlocked. This will be the case for the forseeable future.Also, all this nonsense about the Luas going by the Mater is just that :- nonsense. The decision on the Mater site was made before the Luas routing decision. It's also nonsense because if your child has cancer, you're going to drive him to hospital for his treatments, if at all possible. Public transport systems don't really interest you at that point in your life.
.

This seems sour grapes from Crumlin. The decision went against them so they want another review in the hope that they do better next time..

Brendan Drumm of the HSE says the point of this exercise is to create a world class children's hospital. Crumlin IS a world class children's hospital, somewhat constrained by lack of floor space, which could be easily resolved by building on it's current site. Do you want a list of paediatric specialities where the only consultant in Ireland is in Crumlin ? The Crumlin board decision was determined by the reaction of their staff to this decision. The staff at Crumlin rank among the most skilled, devoted and effective groups of people in the country, and very probably the healthcare world. Their concern is that their effectiveness is :-

A (Crucial consideration ) Going to be fatally undermined by this decision, and

B (very marginal consideration) they'll get the blame from A (child dies in ambulance gridlocked by traffic - Staff say putting the hospital here was a profoundly stupid decision - reporter asks why didn't you say that at the time).

Crumlin is a national treasure, and it's unthinkable that this hospital is built without them. I suspect Harney realises this, and Drumm is about to find out the limit of his powers. Anyone want to take a bet on Brendan Drumm resigning within six months ?

is_that_so

This one is going to rumble on and on.

Firstly I will say that I believe that the murky world of health service politics is at work here on all sides. Much as the failings of the health service show up on Prime Time or the evening news there is much more behind that we never get to see.

Anyway my two cents worth.

My understanding of it all.

From what I understand it was agreed that a single site should be provided and that was agreed by all parties involved in this. Crumlin is due to close anyway within the next few years. The site was chosen by an external group -not politicians. One of the considerations was that it made more sense to be beside a general hospital. That certainly makes sense.

Crumlin is a very fine hospital but it was probably never going to be built there anyway based on the criteria of being part of a general hospital complex. On that basis Tallaght might be a much better option.

I can't help feeling that some of this is down to the emotive nature of children's illnesses and particularly the place that Crumlin has in our psyche.
Yes there are certainly traffic considerations and as yet undelivered promises on public transport for the chosen site. Wherever we go these days we are caught by traffic anyway.

Would Crumlin agree to one that was based in Tallaght?
If not then it does suggest sour grapes and another bit of media manipulation.
My impression of their response to date suggests that it is their site or no site.

fly_agaric

Dilbert75 wrote:

An exaggeration, is it? Just get a train to Heuston, taxi to the Mater - seems simple.

But, unless you live near a train route, you have to travel to get to the train. Somehow. Unless you get on at the beginning of the train's journey, there's probably a fair chance that you won't get a seat.

When you've spent your several hours standing in a carriage, shared with possibly a hundred different people, your sick child (possibly immune surpressed due to either the illness or the treatment) will be in right order for the trip in the taxi to the Mater - where they'll find that there's not enough room, there are no outdoor spaces to make the place feel a little bit less like a prison (because the site is full of hospital) and where some of the country's most experienced childcare professionals are not working because it would have taken an extra two or three hours out of each working day to travel the extra distance.

I didn't consider that the child would also be on the train. That seems like more emotive exaggeration to me. The other poster was referring to visiting by the parents.

Anyway, the difficulties you point out would seem to apply to children (or more likely, parents/visitors) journeying without a private car/other road transport to any hospital in Dublin and AFAICR all the potential sites for this hospital were in Dublin weren't they?

How were any of the other sites so much better when it comes to public transport from the country?

I admit they are probably better for car transport if you are coming from the right direction to avoid the inner city gridlock completely and most of the M50 traffic.
If you happen to either live in the Inner city or N. Dublin (or to a lesser extent W. Dublin), they are probably more awkward than the Mater to get to.

As for staff commutes, would that not also apply to staff in other hospitals whose preferred site was not chosen?


My own opinion about this is that the location is quite good (if all the public transport promises/dreams pan out) but the govt. should not be selling off the large Mountjoy prison site across the road, which I would have thought could come in very handy either for this project or future expansion of the Mater.
But I suppose all they can see are the massive €€€'s to be made from flogging the site at what might be the peak of the market...

williamb wrote:

they'll get the blame

<RANT>I think that seems to motivate alot of what goes on in the health service. Who's to blame for this (Harney, Drumm)? Who's to blame for that (the nurses, the doctors, the blasted patients clogging up the wards and the trolleys)? Arrogance, power, status, turf-wars, bun fights over cash etc. Everything except actually making the health service in Ireland work better + be more equitable.</RANT>

dajaffa

is_that_so wrote:

Crumlin is a very fine hospital but it was probably never going to be built there anyway based on the criteria of being part of a general hospital complex. On that basis Tallaght might be a much better option.

Would Crumlin agree to one that was based in Tallaght?
If not then it does suggest sour grapes and another bit of media manipulation.
My impression of their response to date suggests that it is their site or no site.

The staff from Crumlin aren't kicking up a fuss because their location for work is moving. Frankly rebuilding on the current site wouldn't have been the best option and many of the staff knew that it'd be moving. The issue is the site that's been chosen. Basically it makes commuting a nightmare for many of the staff. Most of the nurses, especially younger ones who live far outside the city, will have no option but to gain employment elsewhere as a 2/3 hour commute on top of a 12/13 hour shift is unhealthy.

I'm sure that by and large the staff would have been acceptive of a site based a few miles outside of the city, ideally on the southside as thats where both Crumlin and Tallaght are located. I have no doubt that the most of the staff would have been happy enough with Tallaght as a location, thou I'm not too familiar with the site size etc. A huge issue with the Mater is the size of the site, on third smaller than Crumlin alone is now.

As for people going on about accessibility, being outside the city is simplest because if you are traveling from the city you'd generally be against the traffic and if you're coming from outside Dublin you wouldn't have the traffic getting into town to contend with.

Macy

fly_agaric wrote:

The other poster was referring to visiting by the parents.

I wasn't, but I suppose you could read it like that if you were supporting the Mater site, so I'll accept I wasn't clear. I fail to see how it's an exaggeration though to bring Children's travel into it - how do you think the Children are going to get to the site? With many treatments you'll be back and forth to the hospital. If you have a sick child in the hospital, you're going to want to be there as often as possible, which means you're not going to be restricted to public transport operating times, and will need suficient, reasonably priced, parking with access to the hospital.

Try to put yourself in the position of parents, living on the west coast who have a child with cancer. I can't see how you/ anyone can possibly say that the Mater site is the right one.

btw I wouldn't expect Crumlin to be the site either - further out at the M50 or probably beyond. Tallaght would have more of a claim than Crumlin, particularly as proximity to light rail seems to be the only arguement that can be made for the Mater.

lostexpectation

you think the gov would use the land they already own right next door and the soon to be closed mountjoy for space for the hospital there'd still be plenty left over for flats

fly_agaric

Macy wrote:

Try to put yourself in the position of parents, living on the west coast who have a child with cancer. I can't see how you/ anyone can possibly say that the Mater site is the right one.

At this point however, I should probably declare that I live in Berties' constituency.:)

I really don't feel too bad about my bias since I judge that the prospect of such an important and emotive piece of the health service being sited somewhat to the north of the city-centre area of Dublin (the "centre" is around Donnybrook isn't it? ) motivates alot of the anguish in the meeja.

Macy wrote:

btw I wouldn't expect Crumlin to be the site either - further out at the M50 or probably beyond. Tallaght would have more of a claim than Crumlin, particularly as proximity to light rail seems to be the only arguement that can be made for the Mater.

Okay, I agree. Asking is_that_so's question again - if Tallaght had been chosen I wonder would the hospitals whose preferred site was not chosen have been any happier with the outcome or less likely to threaten to chuck a spanner in the works?:(

Macy

fly_agaric wrote:

if Tallaght had been chosen I wonder would the hospitals whose preferred site was not chosen have been any happier with the outcome or less likely to threaten to chuck a spanner in the works?:(

They certainly wouldn't have the access arguement, which is the most compelling against the Mater site. Mind you, might've helped if this supposed expert group that picked the Mater site, had actually been given specific sites to consider - as it now turns out they never recommended the Mater site at all, it was just the HSE interpretation of what they said the site should have.

dajaffa

fly_agaric wrote:

the "centre" is around Donnybrook isn't it?

No, Grafton St, Henry St and there surrouding areas would be the centre imo


if Tallaght had been chosen I wonder would the hospitals whose preferred site was not chosen have been any happier with the outcome or less likely to threaten to chuck a spanner in the works?:(

Yes, very much so. Crumlin would have accepted it, Tallaght would too. Temple St might not but in fairness it is the smallest of the 3.

is_that_so

There were some good pieces on Morning Ireland today. Some of those involved with the solution and site location decision were represented. Of particular interest I think are the comments by Linda Dillon. She suggests that basing the choice of location on access/traffic problems is "sad". As she says herself what is most important is the quality of care.

John_C

I'll admit that I have a natural scepticism about Crumlin complaining about the result after the event but may I ask a genuine question?

The doctors in Crumlin have said that the Mater is a bad site for various reasons, a lack of natural sunlight and green space, a lack of on campus accommodation for the parents and various other things which they say are important to a sick child. My question is;
do the doctors in Temple Street and the Mater agree? Is there a genuine medical consensus that the Mater is a bad site or do all the medical staff have pressing reasons why their own site should be picked?

Spuddeeez

In this general election I feel it's time to send a strong signal to the leadaing parties of this country. Don't vote for them!!!!! Easy.