Road Safety Con

RobAMerc

Does anyone else think that the "Speed is the root of all evil" approach to road safety may just be a ruse to deflect attention away from the poor driver training appalling roads and lack of any enforcement of any type in this county?
It also helps that the "Speed Tax" generates revenue.

Perhaps the Road Safety issue also deflects attention from our health system, which is probably is the cause of more deaths per annum than die on our roads?

irishlordknight

ive always said Speed dosent Kill.

Idiots behind the wheel do.

And as for allwing learner drivers to drive around on there own without passing a test! For gods sake!

RosieJoe

I would have to agree on the "Speed Kills" con!

Out of the 367 people killed last year I would love to know how many were involved in single car accidents! Not all can be blamed on speeding, a lot to do with inexperience and driving under the influence

Gregor Samsa

I'm just wondering. How would people who think that speeding fines are *just* a revenue generating ruse (or "Speed Tax" as the OP says) feel if the penalty was changed from a financial one to something else - a day's driving ban for instance?

If we are to have enforcement, then every transgression needs to have a penality. What would be an appropriate (non financial) penality for inappropriate speed? Or should it just be that we have no speed limits, and so there is no transgression or penality?

As for other road issues, sure we have plenty of bad roads and a very poor diriver training system. But even countries with good roads and driver training still have speed cameras and fines (German autobahn and the like obviously excepted) to deal with inappropriate speed.

Not having a go at anyone, just wondering what the opinions are.

And personally, I think the heath system comment is a bit of a red herring. The sad state of our health system gets plenty of attention (it's a very hot topic in the town I live in, for instance. The pre-election junk coming in my door makes much more mention of it than road or speed issues), and the inaction on it by successive governments is nothing to do with road policy.

mikedragon32

While you may have some point, there are some things to consider.

Firstly, speeding can be viewed as a result of poor driver training, but is not down to a lack of enforcement. The so called "Speed Tax" that you refer to is a means of enforcement, yet your post suggests cynicism towards what is the most obvious form of enforcement. If you think speeding fines are just a ploy for cash extraction from the motoring public, you could help deprive the state of this income by not speeding and encouraging others to follow suit.

Secondly, the point you make about Road Safety deflecting attention from the state of our health system, is incorrect. They are seperate issues, though not entirely unrelated. If there was a better record of road safety in this country, then there would be less people in A&E and in hospital beds as a result of accidents on our roads, freeing up those beds for the sick.

RosieJoe

phutyle wrote:

I'm just wondering. How would people who think that speeding fines are *just* a revenue generating ruse (or "Speed Tax" as the OP says) feel if the penalty was changed from a financial one to something else - a day's driving ban for instance?

Barely enough Gardai to enforce speed limits and other offenses. How are to implement temporary driving bans

Jimoslimos

RosieJoe wrote:

Out of the 367 people killed last year I would love to know how many were involved in single car accidents! Not all can be blamed on speeding

Just because it may have been a single car accident doesn't mean that speed wasn't the primary cause.

Anyhow IMO the whole road traffic thing tends to be slightly overplayed here. The huge increase in the number of cars on the road might have more to do with the present figures. I would like to see a breakdown in number of fatal accidents per number of cars and/or total miles travelled.

Gregor Samsa

RosieJoe wrote:

Barely enough Gardai to enforce speed limits and other offenses. How are to implement temporary driving bans

Driving bans was just off the top of my head - I was asking for more suggestions. Anyhow, the whole issue of enforcement and the lack of resources are central to the broader road safety arguement, so it shouldn't be used as an excuse not to change things, since it's one of the fundamental things that needs change.

overdriver

mikedragon32 wrote:

While you may have some point, there are some things to consider.

If there was a better record of road safety in this country, then there would be less people in A&E and in hospital beds as a result of accidents on our roads, freeing up those beds for the sick.

That doesnt really hold up. Something like 50% of the beds in James' are full as a result of smoking related illnesses. I doubt RTA's fill up any significant percentage of beds. Alcohol fills up the A*E departments pretty much single-handedly at weekends.

Big Nelly

You will hear people groan when they see me post on this but I will keep going

Learner drivers, thats the problem. People driving around on L plates or don't even bother putting up L plates on prov license who haven't a clue how to drive or the rules of the road is the problem. I drive alot on the N3 and all over Ireland with work and the main problem I see if Learner drivers. As said before if a Learner driver who is supposed to have a full license driver with them is caught without one they should get a year ban. End of Story.

Gregor Samsa

Big Nelly wrote:

Learner drivers, thats the problem.

Does anyone have the statistics of the number of learner drivers involved in fatal/serious incidents? Beacue without them, statements like could be just regarded as scapegoating in the same way as the OP claims the Government is using the speed issue.

prospect

Speed certainly is a major couse of alot of road traffic accidents, of that there is little doubt.

But, what is important here is the type of speed.
The gardai seem to think that someone travelling at 110km/h on a good, clear, open 100km/h road is to blame. Although it is illegal, I have yet to see of, or hear of an accident being caused by someone travelling in this type of situation.
However, the reality is that it is drivers doing 110km/h on an unpoliced, unlit, windy, pot-hole ridden back road that are the real problem.

So it seems to me that speed does kill, but the Gardai are targeting the easy prey, rather than the real killers.

RobAMerc

mikedragon32 wrote:

If there was a better record of road safety in this country, then there would be less people in A&E and in hospital beds as a result of accidents on our roads, freeing up those beds for the sick.

Sounds to me like you
A) Actually believe everything politicians say
Are a TD (FF or PD - maybe Green)

If there was a real will to stop speed related accidents, there would be a camera at every dangerous junction and a big sign saying “Speed Trap” – this is proven to work.
2 covert traps on a 20km stretch of dry Motorway trying to “Mug” people while they creep over the limit in an effort to make up the time they lost stuck in traffic, is not enforcement.

mikedragon32 wrote:

If you think speeding fines are just a ploy for cash extraction from the motoring public, you could help deprive the state of this income by not speeding and encouraging others to follow suit.

Yes and why not give your cash to every tug you see on the street, saving him the bother of assaulting you - you'd also bring down crime stats - ( Good for re-election if you are a TD)

Lastly - if you were truly into your motorcars as I expect most people on the Motors forum would be, you'd not think that penalizing drivers for an extra 10kph is fair when so little resources seem to be aimed at the thousands of other driver habits (poor driver ed) which are causing mayhem on the roads.

gyppo

What about this as an alternative to speeding fines:

Instead of money + 2 penalty points for a speeding offence, why not give 3 points instead.
Then if they re-offend, let their insurance company hammer them. There would need to be some system of data exchange so that the insurance companies would be aware of the offence, and bill their clients immediately.

Surely with all the advances in IT, this should be a fairly simple affair. Oh, forgot, we're in Ireland........

edit: At least a system like the one above would put an end to the arguement that speed penalties are a revenue source for the guards .. /edit

Biro

And the learner drivers who hold a full license too, the ones who got the free license.
Regarding speed, speed is a contributary factor for sure, but a very competent driver doing 160kmph in a '07 911 Turbo on an empty motorway is many times safer than a learner driver with no experience in a 93 micra with bald tyres doing 100kmph.
Plus, the idea of them marking "red" roads where the danger ones (where most people were killed) and target those areas for speeding was a great one, but again it's a pure scam now after I heard that they are making the dual carrigeway out of Sligo a red route. That is just stupid.
Driver education is a key factor in solving road deaths, but thats a long term solution. Detering people from speeding does help, because you have a better chance of avoiding a muppet coming for you if you're doing 15kmph less, but they need to clamp down on silly driving aswell. People who think it's a good idea to learn to drive on a bank holiday Monday for example on a primary road, doing 35kmph. Thats just selfish and dangerous.
Dodgy overtaking, tailgating... all those offences need to be addressed. As for financial penalties being replaced, I reckon anyone caught doing something stupid should be forced to take an Advanced driving test within 2 months of being caught. Much better than fining and 2 points - they'll actually learn something then.

RosieJoe

Big Nelly wrote:

You will hear people groan when they see me post on this but I will keep going

Learner drivers, thats the problem. People driving around on L plates or don't even bother putting up L plates on prov license who haven't a clue how to drive or the rules of the road is the problem. I drive alot on the N3 and all over Ireland with work and the main problem I see if Learner drivers. As said before if a Learner driver who is supposed to have a full license driver with them is caught without one they should get a year ban. End of Story.

Why not introduce restrictors on cars driven by learner drivers? The do it for motorbikes and no one seems to think this is unfair!

mikedragon32

RobAMerc wrote:

Sounds to me like you
A) Actually believe everything politicians say
Are a TD (FF or PD - maybe Green)

Wrong on both counts

RobAMerc wrote:

If there was a real will to stop speed related accidents, there would be a camera at every dangerous junction and a big sign saying “Speed Trap” – this is proven to work.
2 covert traps on a 20km stretch of dry Motorway trying to “Mug” people while they creep over the limit in an effort to make up the time they lost stuck in traffic, is not enforcement.

As I'm sure you are aware a process is currently underway to have a private organisation install and maintain speed cameras in prescribed locations all over the country. Whether or not there will be signs to warn of these speed traps, I don't know. Nor do I care. I'm not suggesting that you believe that it's okay to speed unless there's a camera, but one might draw that conclusion from your statements above. As for creeping above the speed limit, I've never received a ticket for passing a fixed or temporary speed camera at anything up to 10kph above the limit.

RobAMerc wrote:

Yes and why not give your cash to every tug you see on the street, saving him the bother of assaulting you - you'd also bring down crime stats - ( Good for re-election if you are a TD)

I rarely see tugs on the street, usually they are confined to waterways. That aside, if you were to hand over your cash to a thug to avoid assault, you would still have been robbed, thus merely altering the crime stats, by changing the crime from assault to theft.

RobAMerc wrote:

Lastly - if you were truly into your motorcars as I expect most people on the Motors forum would be, you'd not think that penalizing drivers for an extra 10kph is fair when so little resources seem to be aimed at the thousands of other driver habits (poor driver ed) which are causing mayhem on the roads.

You make some terrible assumptions based on my previous post, however to assume that because one doesn't condone speeding they therefore aren't into cars is incorrect. How many threads have there been in this very forum bemoaning people who try to get out of their speeding fines/points? Are those people also "not into" their motorcars? I enjoy reading about cars and enjoy driving. Because I choose not to drive at excessive speeds nor comfort those who got caught doing so by judging the system to be a racket is not ground for you to make such an assumption.

I agree that there is an issue around enforcement of other road traffic offences, however the logic you employ in relation to the covert operation of speed traps could equally apply to any area of crime. Perhaps before the Gardaí conduct a drug bust they should ring the dealer to provide advance warning of said operation?

Seth Brundle

phutyle wrote:

Does anyone have the statistics of the number of learner drivers involved in fatal/serious incidents? Beacue without them, statements like could be just regarded as scapegoating in the same way as the OP claims the Government is using the speed issue.

AFAIK the gardai do (did?) not collect proper stats on fatal RTAs so most of our stats are based on a form of presumption

RobAMerc

mikedragon32 - I was having a laugh with you about being a politician, you can read so I presume your not.

Stats in the UK show that councils that adopted the approach of placing Gatso's on dangerous stretches and highlighting their existence proved to reduce the number of accidents far quicker than covert detection.

The Irish authorities choose to ignore good practice and go for the cheaper or way that will produce more revenue.

Tugs, on the river - very "Funny"

mikedragon32

Sorry mate, sarcasm filter defaults to idle when I'm accused of being FF or worse again PD, although I have Green tendancies (I recycle ).

Chances are we agree, but my feeling on warning signs ahead of speed checks is that all they do is move the speeding further up the road. As you said in an earlier post, drivers tend to speed on M-ways having been held up on other routes. The same would apply if a driver has to slow down for a speed check. The check on the M50, southbound, just at the Ballymun exit is a great example of folk slowing down from 120kph to about 100kph and once throught the trap accelerate to beyond 130kph.

My opinion is that we should be keeping within the speed limits (or close to them) ALL the time, not just because we spot a warning sign!

pburns

Some interesting statistics below...

God knows most of us - at some point - worry about a loved one being involved in a serious road accident. However given the huge increase in the number of cars on our roads over the last decade (and a population increase) I too am of the opinion that the problem is hugely over-hyped. I blame the media. Those morose reports conducted by Charlie Bird on RTE I find particularly irksome (ambulance-chasing hack!).

http://www.garda.ie/angarda/statistics98/nroadstats.html

http://www.garda.ie/angarda/statistics98/rtastats_longterm.html

(Check out the massive increase between 1967-68!!!)

On the other hand...does anyone else think the roads were safer a few years ago (or were perceived to be safer) when younger drivers were loaded with huge premiums and could barely afford to cover a 1.0L Micra?

C.D.

RosieJoe wrote:

Why not introduce restrictors on cars driven by learner drivers? The do it for motorbikes and no one seems to think this is unfair!

Agreed but two points:

1) There are restrictions: If you are on your first, third or subsequesnt provisional license, you must drive accompanied by a fully licensed driver at all times. L plates and no motorway driving unfortunately, the government have gotten themselves into a huge mess with 400,000 provisional drivers- ensuring that if this restriction was enforced we would have 1) A public transport system even more overburned than we do now [I know its hard to believe] a complete collapse of the motor industry (car sales, service support etc) a major blow to the insurance industry and huge hits to productivity in ALL sectors (people being unable to commute to work). Hence why this backlog of tests has to be cleared before any reforms are undertaken.

2) More a list of suggestion than a "point" in response to your post.

1) Have a tiered system- sit your theory test, you are allowed take lessons. Sit a minor practical test, you have a restricted license (see below) and finally the coup de grace of a driving test (also see below).

Your restricted license should have the following (and more, but I don't singled handedly churn out this country's legislation [shame I know..]. 1) Must drive accompanied by a fully licensed driver. 2) Must display some sort of plate 3) Cannot drive cars with 0-100kmph times of less than 12 seconds [restricting on cc is STUPID, bhp is better but still misleading] with a top speed of less than 180 kmph and a gross [unladen] weight of less than 2,000 kgs

---

* 4) Cannot drive between the hours of 10pm and 5am 5) A 10mg blood level limit on alcohol [to allow for desserts, mouthwash etc] 6) cannot drive on motorways.

Your final driving test needs to be more comprehensive. It does not test you in 1) Motorway driving 2) Mandatory test on a multi-lane roundabout 3) Parallel parking 4) Late night driving 5) Emergency stop (as per the UK) 6) Dangerous conditions (rain, ice etc.). Finally, your driving instructor should be allowed accompany you to 1) Stop testers from letting personal judgements override their professional judgements 2) Stop the examinee from complaining that the "examiner didn't like me".

Final point: All those disqualified from driving should lose their license. They should have to start from the beginning again with the theory test. They obviously didn't learn or understand the relevant laws the first time round. Also, fines should be based on income- this information is held by the revenue commisioners- €500 is nothing to some people, but an impossible sum for others. This insures the poor don't go hungry to pay it and the rich can't just disregard the fine.
*Personally I think these are the best ways to ensure that inexperienced drivers (note inexperienced, discrimination on the basis of age is not something I would encourage) are not driving powerful cars or large heavy vehicles which cause nothing but carnage in an accident. I would be very interested to hear any other suggestions on how to restrict what vehicles can be driven but learner drivers

C.D.

PS. My apologies I re-read your post and see that you say restriction on cars driven by learner drivers and not restrictions on learner drivers per se. Sorry!

ninty9er

I hate to see an L plate pulling out in front of me up ahead as much as the next person, but IIRC this has been done here before and somebody found stats that prove they are involve in a much smaller % of accidents.

So theory disproved.

The system we have needs changing, nobody should be allowed out without 10 lessons