Poker - A game of skill or a game of chance?

BigCityBanker

Poker jury to determine just how big a hand lady luck plays



A JURY has been asked to decide a question that has exercised gamblers for centuries: does winning at poker - the world's most popular card game - hinge on luck or skill?
The verdict, in a landmark legal case, could have a significant impact on the future of the poker industry, which almost dominates late-night satellite television and has an increasing presence online.
The jurors, sitting at Snaresbrook Crown Court in East London, have been asked to decide whether Derek Kelly, chairman of the Gutshot private members' club in Clerkenwell, Central London, broke the law by hosting a poker game in which a levy was charged on the winnings, and hosting another in which players had to pay a fee to take part.
The Gambling Act states that a licence is needed to host games of chance such as blackjack and roulette, but not games of skill, such as chess and quiz machines.
Central to the prosecution case is the argument that poker is a game of "mixed skill and chance". The jurors were told that, if they agreed, they should find Mr Kelly guilty on both counts. Opening the case against Mr Kelly yesterday, Graham Trembath, also warned the jurors that the trial would require a crash course in the notoriously impenetrable jargon used around the poker table. By the end of the hearing, the lawyer said, each juror would know their fish and their flops from their flush and their folds.
Mr Trembath told them: "If I use the following words - a flop, a pair, are you raising?, a blind bet, Texas hold 'em - do those words or any of them resonate with you or ring any bells? This case is all about poker. Some of you may know what it is all about, some of you may not.
"Well, I anticipate during the course of this trial you will have, as it were, a free short tuition in what poker is all about, what poker involves, how it works and so on."
He added: "The essence of this case may well be, and it is your decision and your decision alone: is poker a game of skill or is it a game of chance or is it a game combining skill and chance?"
He said the prosecution was making this case because the cards were shuffled before any game of poker began. "We would submit that, once these cards are shuffled, then you have introduced an element, a significant element, of chance," he said.
Mr Kelly denies both charges of contravening the Gambling Act.
The case continues. (© The Times, London)
Lucy Bannerman

5starpool

I think Derek will be found guilty on this one then if it stands that he is guilty unless they say there is no luck involved in poker.

Wreck

5starpool wrote:

I think Derek will be found guilty on this one then if it stands that he is guilty unless they say there is no luck involved in poker.

You would be hard pressed to find any game or sport (or any other human pursuit really) in which you could categorically state that there is no "luck" involved.

I'm guessing that he will however be found guilty, on the grounds that the jury are likely to believe that luck is more important than skill in poker.

Hitman Actual

BigCityBanker wrote:

The Gambling Act states that a licence is needed to host games of chance such as blackjack and roulette, but not games of skill, such as chess and quiz machines.
Central to the prosecution case is the argument that poker is a game of "mixed skill and chance".

I can't see the Gutshot winning either, if this is what the prosecution is arguing. It would also be very difficult to find a jury of average Joe's who weren't biased towards poker being a game of chance.

ligger

Will they call Phil Hellmuth as a witness for the prosecution?

"If luck weren't involved I guess I'd win every one,"

BigCityBanker

I think this case is a non-event really.

Has "luck" been defined in the eyes of a reasonable man? If not well how then does one reach judgement on the case?

If luck has been defined it is very easy to remove it from the argument and replace it with statistical variance - in fact this may help the case - this is where the skill comes into it.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

ArmaniJeanss

An account of proceedings from the Gutshots website. Very long*, but funny in a tongue-in-cheek sort of way.

http://www.gutshot.com/e/article.php


* perfect for those killing the hours til go-home-time at 5.

Ste05

BigCityBanker wrote:

The Gambling Act states that a licence is needed to host games of chance such as blackjack and roulette, but not games of skill, such as chess and quiz machines.
Central to the prosecution case is the argument that poker is a game of "mixed skill and chance". The jurors were told that, if they agreed, they should find Mr Kelly guilty on both counts.

IMO this will probably be the crux of the case, and certainly is one of, if not the, most important point to Rebut by the Gutshot's Lawyers. If the Judge directs the Jury in these terms then The Gutshot has basically no chance of succeeding, [unless they can somehow bring the negating of chance in the Long-Term into the equation, and then properly explain it to the Jury and have them understand it in order to agree with it, (highly unlikely)]

So I have a feeling this could turn into a relatively boring legislative interpretation case, of which the Jury won't be involved in, but I certainly look forward to reading more about it. I predict an appeal (of the Judges directions) by the losing side and that this will ultimately be decided by a Higher Court. You heard it here first.

Mixed Game of Skill and Chance FTW!!!

DeadParrot

ArmaniJeanss wrote:

An account of proceedings from the Gutshots website. Very long*, but funny in a tongue-in-cheek sort of way.

http://www.gutshot.com/e/article.php


* perfect for those killing the hours til go-home-time at 5.

you must be an awfully slow reader AJ

kincsem

On BBC ceefax page 18 16/01/07

'Skill' of poker under scrutiny

Poker requires its players to absord a "staggering" amount of information, a court has heard.
Speaking at Snaresbrook Crown Court. Derek Kelly, 46, is accused of running unlicensed games at the Gutshot Club in Clerkenwell, central London.
He denies two counts of contravening the 1968 Gaming Act which states a licence is needed to host games of chance but not games of skill.
Mr Kelly, from Co Wicklow, Ireland, also compared poker to a game of life.

mewso

If quizzes are legal then I assume you are not allowed ask multiple choice questions.

Ste05

Well it's bad news

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1247667,00.html
[EDIT: To include Text]

A card club chairman has been found guilty of breaking the 1968 Gaming Act in a test case which could determine the future of poker.

Derek Kelly, 46, chairman of the Gutshot Private Members Club in Clerkenwell, London, was found guilty of contravening the Act by organising a game of poker on December 7, 2004, in which a levy was charged on the winnings.

He was also found guilty by a jury at Snaresbrook Crown Court of contravening the Act by organising a poker game on January 27, 2005, in which a fee was charged to take part.

The trial has been seen as a test of whether poker should fall under the remit of the 1968 Gaming Act, which states that a licence is needed to host games of chance such as blackjack and roulette - but not games of skill, such as chess and quiz machines.

Speaking outside the court, Mr Kelly, of Greystones, Co Wicklow, Ireland, who is a financial analyst, said he was "very disappointed" with the verdicts.

He said: "We still will be playing at the Gutshot tonight. We may have to change the way we do it. We're going to have to look at the way we are doing it at this moment in time.

"We are not closing down anything. Myself and Barry (Martin, chief executive of Gutshot Ltd), will continue to campaign to have poker played among normal people and not only in casinos."

A date for sentencing and consideration of costs has been set for February 16.

The judge in the five day case, Judge Simon Wilkinson, said: "Had there been a verdict of not guilty, this, of course, could really have caused enormous problems for the gaming law because you then have a green light in some people's eyes to unregulated poker."

hotspur

It may seem ungenerous but I hope he has to pay through the bloody nose in costs for this stupid case. What is the average media report of this gonna be? - "Poker ruled a game of chance not skill!"
Kelly's a moron for not just taking the slap on the wrist in quiet. Those of you here with an interest in running poker remember this case!