Takedowns in Bjj

HammerHeadGym

A question for the bjj guys.
What percentage of brazilian jiu jitsu is devoted to takedowns? How would the takedowns in bjj compare to greco-roman or freestyle olympic wrestling?

Thanks

Nothingcompares

HammerHeadGym wrote:

A question for the bjj guys.
What percentage of brazilian jiu jitsu is devoted to takedowns? How would the takedowns in bjj compare to greco-roman or freestyle olympic wrestling?

Thanks

<10% in my experience.
Bjj take downs are simple freestyle takedowns with some simple judo take downs.

john kavanagh

like judo ground work it depends on the school. for the majority of BJJ schools they would do very little takedown training as it scores so little in competition....in the same way judo schools tend to spend little time on ground for competition reasons.

as for delivery systems used, whether they be freestyle or greco - well of course they are useful but judo would be far superior as we are wearing a uniform, not singlet. the top bjj competitors are all good judo players too.

HammerHeadGym

Very interesting. Thanks guys.

Nothingcompares

Takedowns are takedowns.

If you're wearing a Gi, Judo is proven to be the best system for developing high level gi-wrestling/clinch skills. Here is a video of international level judo take downs. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gp2N-EyVe_k

If you're not wearing a gi, wrestling (both freestyle/collegiate and greco) are shown to be the best. Here is a highlight video of the usa's olympic styles team in the 92 games. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEpf9NljoEA
People like Mark Coleman, Dan Henderson etc. make an appearance.

Bjj can be divided between grappling with the gi, and grappling no-gi (submission wrestling). For the gi competitions (mundials etc., Irish BJJ open) the take downs seen in Judo are most effective because of the gi. In Submission wrestling, the throws most common in wrestling (double legs, single legs, picks up from double unders) are most effective.

In Judo, you aim to win by ippon and ippon is awarded by
1.a good, clean, quick throw where you opponent falls smoothly and cleanly onto his back.
2. two throws that weren't quite perfect (wazari)
3. a 25 second pin (opponents back on mat)
4. submission (choke, strangle).

I'm not totally familar with the different scoring systems in wrestling but I think it basically works on points. You win by gaining a certain amount of points (you get points for takedowns, making progress while standing) and most importantly by pinning your opponent's shoulders to the ground for 2 seconds.

As with practicing jiujitsu with a gi, there are 100 times more techniques available to you by use of the gi then grappling no-gi. It's the same, to a certain extent, with stand-up grappling. So in judo, you often see a win by ippon throw to a single throw where as in wrestling, point decisions and pins are more common ( i think). Basically because, wrestling is more a case of timing and speed then a technical battle (judo has more techniques) two evenly matched wrestlers can cancel each other out.

But the way to win in BJJ and submission wrestling is by submission, in the case of no submission after time, points. So a BJJ competitor wants to focus as much on possible on improving submissions and his ground game. As bouts are becoming a lot more competitive on the ground, that slight advantage awarded to you by controling the take down is becoming more important a lot of BJJ people train judo takedowns. (same take downs wether you call them judo or bjj). Jacare is a prime example of a top quality BJJ guy with good Judo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXM9J10IfSw.

So to answer the question

how would the takedowns in bjj compare to greco-roman or freestyle olympic wrestling?

The takedowns are the same in the case of no-gi fighters. In the case of gi fighters, the takedowns are the same as judo. Just less advanced. Obviously pure greco guys are much better than submission wrestlers at take downs and pure judo guys are much better than bjj guys at takedowns. The takedowns are the same but the skill of the individuals is different due to the time and intensity spent practicing them.

If you take the time to watch some BJJ and Submission competitions you won't see many impressive take downs. You'll see a lot of pulling guard and other funky **** because I think a good portion of bjj/sub grapplers don't like take downs at that much

In MMA the clinch is more important and you can't mess about as much as you can in sub wrestling in the clinch. this adcc clip shows some funky aparent lack of take down skills http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEA6VLCIZpg.

mark.leonard

Quality post dude, very nicely summed up.

Marty Mc

Have to agree - Great post man,

I have recently battled with myself which would be more applicable and benifical for mma/sub wrestling. Training some no gi stuff i thought that judo would have its benifits as throws could be modified from gi grips to a wrist hold and a single under hook (no gi) to get some of the throws off. But with wrestling becoming avilable, i wondered which would be better to train in to help a very limited no gi game. So would the general concensious amongst 'posters' be that wrestling would be best to utilize for takedowns and positional advantage?

bella1

HammerHeadGym wrote:

A question for the bjj guys.
What percentage of brazilian jiu jitsu is devoted to takedowns? How would the takedowns in bjj compare to greco-roman or freestyle olympic wrestling?

Thanks

judo for bjj..we start the class with judo throws then we roll

Taiwan-Evo

Marty Mc wrote:

Have to agree - Great post man,

I have recently battled with myself which would be more applicable and benifical for mma/sub wrestling. Training some no gi stuff i thought that judo would have its benifits as throws could be modified from gi grips to a wrist hold and a single under hook (no gi) to get some of the throws off. But with wrestling becoming avilable, i wondered which would be better to train in to help a very limited no gi game. So would the general concensious amongst 'posters' be that wrestling would be best to utilize for takedowns and positional advantage?

Look for a dvd that teaches judo for bjj. I forget who's instructional it is ,but very good and I have personally used them in sparing and competition. For MMA get a good grounding in both. Wrestling is great but if it goes to a tie up knowing some no gi hip tosses can come in handy.

john kavanagh

Nothingcompares wrote:

Bjj can be divided between grappling with the gi, and grappling no-gi (submission wrestling).

very good post overall but if i think its worth pointing out that this statement is a wee bit off. there is no such thing as 'BJJ without the gi'. there is bjj and then there is submissions wrestling. they are very similar (to beginners anyhow) but they are two different sports.

it'd be like saying judo and submission wrestling are the same sport. there is certainly a lot of crossover plus a good judo guy will do well in sub wrestling and vice versa however they are different sports.

some submission schools have introduced 't-shirt belts'. personally i agree with the concept as people like to have 'markers' to aim for, some reward for their hard work. but to confuse a submission wrestling 't-shirt' belt with a BJJ belt would be wrong. sure at the lower levels they will be more or less the same but at the higher levels the difference is huge.

as a hypothetical if someone was to train from day 1 no-gi and work up to a 't-shirt' black belt level - if you put a gi on him now and put him against a BJJ black belt he would get ruined as he wouldn't understand the grips etc. it also works the other way, i've met some high level BJJ guys who were poor in submission wrestling because they couldn't adapt their technique.

LukeyJudo22

john kavanagh wrote:

very good post overall but if i think its worth pointing out that this statement is a wee bit off. there is no such thing as 'BJJ without the gi'. there is bjj and then there is submissions wrestling. they are very similar (to beginners anyhow) but they are two different sports.

it'd be like saying judo and submission wrestling are the same sport. there is certainly a lot of crossover plus a good judo guy will do well in sub wrestling and vice versa however they are different sports.

some submission schools have introduced 't-shirt belts'. personally i agree with the concept as people like to have 'markers' to aim for, some reward for their hard work. but to confuse a submission wrestling 't-shirt' belt with a BJJ belt would be wrong. sure at the lower levels they will be more or less the same but at the higher levels the difference is huge.

as a hypothetical if someone was to train from day 1 no-gi and work up to a 't-shirt' black belt level - if you put a gi on him now and put him against a BJJ black belt he would get ruined as he wouldn't understand the grips etc. it also works the other way, i've met some high level BJJ guys who were poor in submission wrestling because they couldn't adapt their technique.

Spot on. Over in the states I trained with a guy that just did judo for a few months but was some kind of high school wrestler. With a judogi on he really was at a complete loss, but if I fought him in a wrestling bout it would have been the other way round.

It's interesting to see all the differet types of grappling there is out there. They all generally have their strengths and weaknesses in cerain areas.

It's all good. Just personal preference at the end of the day.

Sir Tapsalot

Check out Guerrilla JiuJitsu (book) or Position Impossible (DVD) by Dave Camarillo for the best blend of Judo and BJJ you can find anywhere. Dave (and his brother Dan) competed at a high level in Judo, as well as being a Ralph Gracie BB, and is an awesome instuctor who knows his stuff inside out. For more info check out http://dcacademy.info/

It's also worth checking out Jacare's DVD from BJJTapes.com, he shows some great takedowns that definitely work, as the DVD also includes loads of his matches where he uses all the stuff he teaches on the DVD.

James

dlofnep

Suprisingly, there is alot of time dedicated at my judo class in college to ground work. A previous club I trained with also had time for groundwork in every class. But I still think it would depend on the club.

If the instructor was a judo player and a bjj player, I have no doubt he would add more time for throws and takedowns in the bjj class, or else have a seperate judo class for it.

Andy Ryan would probably be a guy to check this with. How does his classes normally run?

dlofnep

Camarillo is known for sure for blending both. I have a video here on judo takedowns for bjj, although it's not very long, maybe an hour - there is definately different considerations to take depending on the competition rules.

Nothingcompares

john kavanagh wrote:

very good post overall but if i think its worth pointing out that this statement is a wee bit off. there is no such thing as 'BJJ without the gi'.

Fair enough, when I'm talking about submission wrestling I'm talking about no-gi jiujitsu and when I'm talking about bjj i'm talking about bjj with a gi. I can understand they're completely different sports to a high level altlete but I still consider them two different, but similar games within the sport/martial art of BJJ. I think it's nice to give things different names but to me, if they're trained by the same people in the same way, they're pretty similar. Anyway, I'm not the bjj expert and from henceforth all references to no-gi will be sw/sg and not bjj. So COlm O'reilly's club isn't a bjj club it's a sub wrestling club.

Another point worth noting is that there is a lot of crossover between the techniques in judo and the techniques in wrestling. A shoulder throw in wrestling, is a seoi-nage in judo, all the double legs and single leg pickups are there in judo, they even have japanese names! MY own opinion why they're not as effective is because once you take a grip on someones gi, they have less opporunity to make a shoot, but in wrestling, there is no grip until an even closer range. Also, judo have rules against holding onto the double leg position for too long. Of course, there are things in judo that cant be done in wrestling and vice versa. Well they can be done but not effectvely.

here is a great grappler http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrEbwDHL-Hc flavio canto

john kavanagh

Nothingcompares wrote:

when I'm talking about submission wrestling I'm talking about no-gi jiujitsu

so you would call greco-roman wrestling 'no-gi judo'?

Nothingcompares wrote:

So COlm O'reilly's club isn't a bjj club it's a sub wrestling club.

no gym that trains 100% of the time in submission wrestling can call itself a 'BJJ' club. lets say you saw a new class starting up 'Judo in blackrock' or whatever. you go out to train and then the coach says 'ah no we don't do any of that gi stuff' - in other words it should be 'wrestling' not 'judo'. different sports.

tbh personally i dont really care, i train about 50/50 bjj/submission wrestling. i enjoy them both but its just when i continually see the names being used interchangeably i thought i would post to clarify that they are indeed two different sports...that are very similar at the lower levels.

Nothingcompares

Would you not agree that Vale Tudo, Self-Defense, no-gi comp and gi competions are just applictions of the delivery system known as BJJ?


(Matt Thornton, 2003)

Actually, using this logic, I might have to say BJJ and MMA are the samething. Begins to retract comments... however I would argue ground grappling with the gi is more similar and relevant to ground grappling without the gi then stand up with and then without the gi.

john kavanagh

Nothingcompares wrote:

Would you not agree that Vale Tudo, Self-Defense, no-gi comp and gi competions are just applictions of the delivery system known as BJJ?

well its a small but important difference imo to say that 'BJJ as a delivery system may be used in VT, SD, Gi and no-gi situations/competitions

like saying in this case



'Judo as a delivery system may be used in VT, SD, Gi and no-gi.

the tactics may vary according to circumstances but the delivery system remains constant.

Nothingcompares

thanks for clearing that up

Valmont

Nothingcompares wrote:

. however I would argue ground grappling with the gi is more similar and relevant to ground grappling without the gi then stand up with and then without the gi.

Completely, greco and judo may be similar but they don't have near as similarities as sub wrestling and BJJ.

So the analogy 'would you say greco is judo without the gi' doesn't really compare to well to sub w. and bjj.

The top BJJ players in the world, M.Garcia, L.Viera, Roger Gracie all are the best sub grapplers in their respective weight divisions. I don't see the judo gold medalists throw off the gi and get a silver in wrestling.

That obviously has to do with the fact that the guys I mentioned cross train which is advantageous to both gi and nogi strategies but it wouldn't be practical for judo and greco guys to cross train and be really good at both because they're just not similar enough to be trained as a variation of one another like BJJ and sub wrestling schools do.

I still agree that sub wrestling can't be considered BJJ au natural but I don't think it a major heresy to say you train 'BJJ nogi'.

john kavanagh

Valmont wrote:

but I don't think it a major heresy to say you train 'BJJ nogi'.

well like i said they are very similar, to beginners.

Nothingcompares

hehe don't worry valmont, John Kavanagh calls everyone that disagrees with him a beginner.

john kavanagh

:rolleyes:

Valmont

john kavanagh wrote:

well like i said they are very similar, to beginners.

I thought there was a good level of similarity at higher levels? I just based that on the fact that most the best Brazilian Jiu Jitsu players are the best sub grapplers too.

Or maybe thats the brazilian 'grappling' gene:)

dlofnep

No-gi BJJ, sub-wrestling - It's really used interchangeably. Sub-wrestling can be no-gi anything though. Sambo, judo, freestyle wrestling, catch wrestling.. which can all emphasise on different areas. I think no-gi BJJ would be a little more accurate if it's being taught from a BJJ instructor, even if you have to somewhat alter your game to cater for the lack of a gi. Afterall, a gi is just a pair of clothes to train in.. Just my opinion.

Nothingcompares

dlofnep wrote:

No-gi BJJ, sub-wrestling - It's really used interchangeably. Sub-wrestling can be no-gi anything though. Sambo, judo, freestyle wrestling, catch wrestling.. which can all emphasise on different areas. I think no-gi BJJ would be a little more accurate if it's being taught from a BJJ instructor, even if you have to somewhat alter your game to cater for the lack of a gi. Afterall, a gi is just a pair of clothes to train in.. Just my opinion.

this makes a lot of sense to me.

Colm_OReilly

This is beginning to sound like an MMA/TMA debate, and seems just as fruitless - it doesn't really matter in the grand scale of things.

Since beginners don't know the difference I'll continue to include BJJ in my marketing. Hell I'm a BJJ blue belt and that was back when very few trained with the gi (heck, sub wrestling wasn't that popular either as it is now)

BTW I'm not back as mod I just popped on because my name was mentioned. Details of March 10th/11th coming soon.

Colm

FiannaGym.com

A goo dway to think of this debate is bycomparing it to Judo or Boxing. Take away the Gi (in Judo) or the gloves (in boxing) and you dramatically change the game... of course those who are great in the Gi or wearing gloves are still gonna rule without them.

I'm a terrible no-gi grappler but when I wear a gi (the one time) I'm even worse! And that's saying something.

Peace

P.S. Colm thought me the important lesson "You can still sleeve choke in no-gi" many moons ago.