Kings - Easy call? raise?or fold?

Nocturnal · 10-01-2007 1:40am #1

Ok maybe this is very standard but kinda annoyin me and wanted someone elses opinion.

5/10 full ring game

Villain has been very very tight player.

Hero($1050) - MP
Villain($1200) - LP

Folded to Hero
Hero (KK): Raises to $45
Villain: Reraise to $155
Hero: ?????

I'm thinking that his range here is AA or QQ since i have the Kings,But more than lightly Aces since hes been playin so quietly until now.I'm thinkin if I call I have to be ready to commit it all so would like some suggestions.If he wasn't such a tight player I'd reraise but just unsure.Had lost a simliar pot all in after low flop with kings the night before to aces so maybe thats affecting me too.
Call,Raise or fold?

ianmc38 · 10-01-2007 1:45am

Based on your description, I'd call and reassess if he's the type of player that will fold JJ/QQ/AK to a 3-bet.

valor · 10-01-2007 1:50am

based on your description, call

anything else would be bad

ditpoker · 10-01-2007 2:16am

is there any sense in re-raising, making it 350 say, and if he comes back over the top you've alot more information and makes the fold easier?

phantom_lord · 10-01-2007 2:23am

ditpoker wrote:

is there any sense in re-raising, making it 350 say, and if he comes back over the top you've alot more information and makes the fold easier?

no...

fuzzbox · 10-01-2007 9:20am

Wow, if he has precisely AA/QQ then that is one super-tight mofo.

I usualloy call and CRAI on good flops (one that dont have an Ace or Q in them).

Nocturnal · 10-01-2007 1:31pm

Believe it or not,I actually folded.It might have been a awful move but I really just had a sick feeling I was running into aces. It was the end of the night I'd been doing well and wanted to finish on a good note. Only had 45 in the pot and I'd prefer the one to be doing the reraising in this situation. Also I reckon there was a huge raise coming on any flop which I wouldnt have been happy calling. Thanks for your views guys.

Mr. Flibble · 10-01-2007 1:55pm

Nocturnal wrote:

Believe it or not,I actually folded.It might have been a awful move but I really just had a sick feeling I was running into aces.

Humm, I understand your logic that if the guy has QQ or AA it looks like you'll only go broke if he has AA but he won't go broke with QQ.

Personally I would have called for set value, he also may check behind if he's got AK.

kebabfest · 10-01-2007 2:33pm

the raise does smell of AA considering what you said of the player. However you still cant fold KK pre-flop.
If he is a tight as you say you can probably play him a lot of flops.

Scouser in Dub · 10-01-2007 3:02pm

Mr. Flibble wrote:

Personally I would have called for set value, he also may check behind if he's got AK.

Can we play for set value if the villain in the hand seems very unlikely to pay off for his stack if we hit?

and do we expect to see villains so tight that any 3 bet is AA?

LuckyLloyd · 10-01-2007 3:58pm

This post has been deleted.

Nocturnal · 10-01-2007 4:38pm

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Is there no way that villian will do this with AK or QQ??

yeah well i felt it was a gamble between QQ and AA but I guess some of the time there is also the possibility of AK. And admitedly I did play this very tight..

Mr. Flibble wrote:

Personally I would have called for set value, he also may check behind if he's got AK.

Thinking back on it now,I reckon this would have been the right play.

Ste05 · 10-01-2007 5:22pm

I hope you don't take offence to this, but if you don't know what to do with KK Pre-Flop to a re-raise I'd suggest you move down in the levels, I hope you are fairly wealthy and this kind of money isn't that much to you, otherwise I'd suggest you move down.

valor · 10-01-2007 5:22pm

This is really horrible

phantom_lord · 10-01-2007 5:58pm

wwwaaayyy too tight.

empirix · 10-01-2007 6:21pm

Definite call, you will still have some good plays on the flop(carefully mind you), might also be possible the villain was getting a wee bit pissed off and decided to try and steal the pot

Mr. Flibble · 10-01-2007 7:49pm

LuckyLloyd wrote:

However, re - raising and getting it all in on this hand is never a mistake. It would be horrible if you ran into AA - but you still wouldn't have done anything wrong IMO.

I've got to disagree. There are so many players out there that will not get all in for 100BBs with QQ, especially vs a tight player (which I gather Nocturnal is). So you are effectively bluffing with KK, risking 1000 to win 210 or so.

Scouser in Dub wrote:

Can we play for set value if the villain in the hand seems very unlikely to pay off for his stack if we hit?

I guess we need to make 110 (how much it is for us to call) * 7.5 (chances of hitting a set) + a bit for when out set gets beat on average for us to break even. I'd say this is likely, but I don't know the villain.

Scouser in Dub · 10-01-2007 8:04pm

so hero effectively needs villain to commit his stack on a k high board when he is so tight that a 3bet means AA? Can't see it, but there has to be ways to push him off the best hand if indeed his holding is AA

AmarilloFats · 11-01-2007 9:58am

If villain is as tight as hero says then hero should be repoppping him preflop him left and right and left again...

When hero does this all of a sudden his KK's value has IMproved immeasurably....
To allow a player to play tight tight is a mistake.....If you're in a situation where your KK has Fuk all value to a reraise well you need to massage that situation.

But taking the hand in a vacuum, I call preflop...And re-evaluate! LOL

Rb · 11-01-2007 10:02am

phantom_lord wrote:

wwwaaayyy too tight.

.

LuckyLloyd · 11-01-2007 10:22am

This post has been deleted.

Ste05 · 11-01-2007 12:14pm

LuckyLloyd wrote:

I'm sorry, but we are never bluffing pre - flop with KK!! This thread is mad IMO. If you aren't willing to get it in with KK pre - flop then you are either underrolled and playing scared, or far too tight.

You can "Effectively" be bluffing with KK, which is any time that the only hand that will call you is one that beats you. i.e. AA.

[EDIT: But I obviously agree I'm getting All-In Pre-Flop 99.5% of the time without any worries, but sometimes calling instead of raising has a higher Expectation and the decision as to which option to take depends on the players involved and how they view each other.]

If the opponent is as tight as the OP says, and will fold QQ- and AK to a re-raise, then it basically is a bluff, how this remains the case is a bit mad to me, because I'd be re-raising him alot if this was the case, to such a degree that this range would have no option but to increase, or else he'd be just bleeding money to me.

How someone should play KK Pre-Flop is all a matter of how the 2 players view each other, you're setting up the hand for the rest of the hand, PF is just the first step along the way to hopefully stacking the opponent. The OP obviously has a good enough read on the Opponent, that being the case, he should also be aware of how that opponent views him, and just play the hand accordingly.

BigCityBanker · 11-01-2007 12:40pm

I do not believe a player exists to which we could assign a range of only AA to with this type of preflop action. This is a cash game, if he has AA then tuff titty - reload. Ship it..

Ste05 · 11-01-2007 1:20pm

BigCityBanker wrote:

I do not believe a player exists to which we could assign a range of only AA to with this type of preflop action. This is a cash game, if he has AA then tuff titty - reload. Ship it..

Just to be clear and to make sure you're not confusing what I'm saying here. I'm not saying people should be afraid of AA and play scared, but there certainly are times and situations where a particular opponent MAY fold QQ- and AK Pre-Flop to another Raise and only call with AA. In these cases it is effectively a bluff and certainly minimises our expectation, whereas a call and getting it in on the flop has a much higher expectation. At no point am I talking about or alluding to a Fold I'm only talking about maximising expectation and what line maximises our expectation depends on the situation and players involved.

LuckyLloyd · 11-01-2007 1:50pm

This post has been deleted.

BigCityBanker · 11-01-2007 2:04pm

Ste05 wrote:

Just to be clear and to make sure you're not confusing what I'm saying here. I'm not saying people should be afraid of AA and play scared, but there certainly are times and situations where a particular opponent MAY fold QQ- and AK Pre-Flop to another Raise and only call with AA. In these cases it is effectively a bluff and certainly minimises our expectation, whereas a call and getting it in on the flop has a much higher expectation. At no point am I talking about or alluding to a Fold I'm only talking about maximising expectation and what line maximises our expectation depends on the situation and players involved.

Im with you on this Ste - I was responding to the OP.

AmarilloFats · 11-01-2007 2:34pm

Ste05 wrote:

If the opponent is as tight as the OP says, and will fold QQ- and AK to a re-raise, then it basically is a bluff, how this remains the case is a bit mad to me, because I'd be re-raising him alot if this was the case, to such a degree that this range would have no option but to increase, or else he'd be just bleeding money to me.

Bullseye

Kings - Easy call? raise?or fold?

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