Change the citizenship law

eric_31

Changes to citizenship laws

Published in The Sunday Business Post
Original
Sunday, December 24, 2006 -

Under Irish nationality law created in 1956, anyone with a great-grandparent, grandparent or parent who was from Ireland was eligible for citizenship by descent.

However, the law was changed in 1984 and members of the Irish diaspora whose closest link to Ireland was a great-grandparent no longer qualified for citizenship by descent.

As the years go by, fewer and fewer members of the Irish diaspora will have grandparents who were born in Ireland.

Today, the Republic of Ireland is allowing huge numbers of foreigners to come to Ireland, but current citizenship by descent laws are keeping Irish people out of their homeland. But why should someone from Poland be able to show up in Ireland tomorrow and start working and living there instantly, yet an Irish person from the US doing the same would be an illegal immigrant, subject to arrest and deportation?

I propose that the law be reverted to allow citizenship by descent to be claimed by those with an Irish great-grandparent and that the Irish government explore the possibility of extending citizenship to all people with Irish ancestry.

I have lots of Irish ancestors, but my closest link to Ireland is my great-grandmother who came to the US as a child. Until the law is changed, I will not be able to obtain Irish citizenship.

Eric Hafner, New Jersey, US.

Trojan

My grandfather was born in PA yet I cannot claim US citizenship, why is the opposite case different?

Zombrex

eric_31 wrote:

However, the law was changed in 1984 and members of the Irish diaspora whose closest link to Ireland was a great-grandparent no longer qualified for citizenship by descent.

Do you not understand why? Someone who's only connection to Ireland is their great-grandparent is hardly an Irish "citizen". You have 8 great-grandparents, if they all came from different countries would you consider that person to be a citizen of 8 different countries?

eric_31 wrote:

But why should someone from Poland be able to show up in Ireland tomorrow and start working and living there instantly, yet an Irish person from the US doing the same would be an illegal immigrant, subject to arrest and deportation?

Because Poland is part of the EU, and the USA isn't. The Polish person isn't an Irish citizen, but they are legally allowed work here because Poland is part of the EU. And Irish person is allowed go work in Poland, but they are not allowed go work in the USA, without first getting a work visa.

eric_31 wrote:

I propose that the law be reverted to allow citizenship by descent to be claimed by those with an Irish great-grandparent and that the Irish government explore the possibility of extending citizenship to all people with Irish ancestry.

That is a bit daft. Trace ancestry back far enough we are all Africans. Should we all be given Rwandan citizenship?

Giving Irish citizenship to someone from American on no other grounds than a 100 years ago one of their great-grandparents was Irish is ridiculous. That person is less of an "Irish citizen" than the Polish person who is actually living and working here.

eric_31 wrote:

I have lots of Irish ancestors, but my closest link to Ireland is my great-grandmother who came to the US as a child. Until the law is changed, I will not be able to obtain Irish citizenship.

But you aren't Irish. You are American. You are a citzen of the United States of America. I imagine your parents were citizens of the United States of America. I would imagine your grand parents were citizens of the United States of America. Your family have not been Irish in 3 generations.

I apprecate that you might rather be an Irish citizen, but the simple fact is that you aren't, you are an American citizen, and for the last 70 years or more your family have been US citizens.

If you have lived here for years, or grown up here, or what ever, you might have a case. I've no great problem with someone, from the US or from Nigeria, who has lived here for a number of years wanting to become an Irish citizen. But your great grandfather is irrelivent to this. That is not a connection to Ireland. Did you even meet your great-grand father?

sceptre

eric_31 wrote:

I have lots of Irish ancestors, but my closest link to Ireland is my great-grandmother who came to the US as a child. Until the law is changed, I will not be able to obtain Irish citizenship.

Assuming your last residential link to this country was three generations ago, I'd see that as something of a good thing.

I'm also reasonably open to the US joining the EU some day if they manage to sort out their human rights issues. I'd hope to see the latter as a more likely solution to the plight of people with Irish great-grandparents who want to come here and live in the homeland of their great-grandparents without a visa or without any US government reciprocation for the frankly generous offer from successive Irish governments towards those hence eligible to play for the national soccer team.

Hobbes

eric_31 wrote:

Changes to citizenship laws...

And your opinion on it is?

Today, the Republic of Ireland is allowing huge numbers of foreigners to come to Ireland, but current citizenship by descent laws are keeping Irish people out of their homeland.

If the person was born in another country and are second/third generation then they aren't Irish.

Until the law is changed, I will not be able to obtain Irish citizenship.

Total fud. He can still obtain citizenship if he wanted to. Just has to go through the system like everyone else and not try and short circuit their way in.

InFront

As the years go by, fewer and fewer members of the Irish diaspora will have grandparents who were born in Ireland.

Quite a large number of the Irish diaspora, as far as i understand, would have emigrated in the 1950s and 60s, and then again in the post EEC restructuring period of the 1980s. This country will be feeling the ramifications of its emigrative history for rather a long time into future genrations. In fairness, you have to stop somewhere.

Ireland currently has a large immigrant pool, and it's quite a headache.
Being a non EEA economic migrant (or son thereof) I am admittedly biased, but basically your claim is that you have greater right to be here than I do.

This is why I think that is unfair. Take families with parents who are hardworking, for whom bringing up their children in Ireland is economically advantageous, and who have something that they can prove is of benefit to Ireland (usually a professional career, or a scholarship in the case of single individuals, and then unskilled workers to the point where certain sectors of the economy can sustain it and need it).
I would suggest that these people have on a very superficial level, greater immigrative merit than somebody else from outside the EU who has nothing rather than the return of one of her citzen's American great great grandsons to offer the state.
I would even question the necessity of granting an American with one generation 'grandparent citizenship' his residency on that basis alone. This is the case at present?

Surely the most sensible thing is to judge all immigration applications on the basis of their individual merit? I can see how, if one has an Irish parent one can feel a great tie with that country, but even a grandparent? I mean I have one grandmother who was born in India and the cultural or family tie I feel with that country amounts to approximately nothing. I certainly shouldn't think such a pointless fact of geneaology guarantees me to Indian citizenship, despite the terrible, historic parallells of 'forced' emigration that country has with Ireland.

There is a two-tiered approach to immigration in this country. Do you know that the Renewal of the 'Permission to Remain with an irish Born Child' Scheme for non EU nationals came into effect a few days ago? This means that you, with a great grandparent from Ireland but who may well (for all officialdom knows) never even have heard of ireland, have more right to be here today than parents with a child born in Holles Street in 2004 and is now in his 3rd year at least.

Those pre-2005 children have began speaking with irish accents (and may have started school here). Yet it is unclear whether their own parents will be allowed to stay. I personally, would be much more interested in seeing the parents of those children being given the right to remain here with them.

They are Irish children, and whilst their unborn great grandchildren will be allowed to come and go as they choose 100 years down the line, their own mothers enjoy no such freedom. I would suggest that an infant needs his mother rather than his potential grandchildren.

Victor

Why is this thread still here, this is simply self serving spam!!!

Gurgle

sceptre wrote:

I'm also reasonably open to the US joining the EU some day if they manage to sort out their human rights issues.

Had to lol at this one.

Excellent point, they wouldn't be accepted in to the EU if they did apply.

gandalf

eric_31 wrote:

Today, the Republic of Ireland is allowing huge numbers of foreigners to come to Ireland, but current citizenship by descent laws are keeping Irish people out of their homeland. But why should someone from Poland be able to show up in Ireland tomorrow and start working and living there instantly, yet an Irish person from the US doing the same would be an illegal immigrant, subject to arrest and deportation?

Because they and we are part of the EU and there are no borders for workers. You are either a US Citizen or not, if you were born over there and claim US citizenship you are not Irish, you are of Irish descent. Ireland is not your homeland, America is.

I propose that the law be reverted to allow citizenship by descent to be claimed by those with an Irish great-grandparent and that the Irish government explore the possibility of extending citizenship to all people with Irish ancestry.

Nope I am quite happy with the current rules. Actually I think having it as far back as Grandparents is generous, it should just be parents.

I have lots of Irish ancestors, but my closest link to Ireland is my great-grandmother who came to the US as a child. Until the law is changed, I will not be able to obtain Irish citizenship.

Do you have ancestry for other countries in your gene pool, do they allow you to become a citizen this way? You're an American Citizen accept it no matter how distasteful it is to you.

The only issue I would have with this is the limitation of decent players for the Irish Soccer team.

Gurgle

gandalf wrote:

Actually I think having it as far back as Grandparents is generous, it should just be parents.

Its more generous than the reverse situation. In the US, your parents, if not born there, have to have been resident there for at least 5 years in order for you to qualify for citizenship.

Dontico

born in america, raised in america, you are an american.
i would rather let the poles, chinnese, and middle easterners than americans in my country.

Time Magazine

I don't want them Americans coming in and taking our jobs.

Lennoxschips

careful with the big mouths now lads, if those pesky americans like ibm, dell, intel, microsoft and apple decided to pack up and leave ireland tomorrow, we'd be back in the 1980s like a flash.

sceptre

Lennoxschips wrote:

careful with the big mouths now lads, if those pesky americans like ibm, dell, intel, microsoft and apple decided to pack up and leave ireland tomorrow, we'd be back in the 1980s like a flash.

For me it's like this, I don't have to like their home government's policies, just the employment provided by the companies. In return, they don't have to like our citizenship laws, just the employees available in the state. They're not here in the first place just because they think we're a fine bunch of agreeable chaps who'll show them a good time down the pub.

Dub13

Lennoxschips wrote:

careful with the big mouths now lads, if those pesky americans like ibm, dell, intel, microsoft and apple decided to pack up and leave ireland tomorrow, we'd be back in the 1980s like a flash.

I hate this augment,what if the Brits pull out...?

DJ_Spider

I was adopted at the age of 6 weeks. I have found out my Natural Mother was from Galway. I grew up in Cheltenham, (funny as it is the home of irish racing in the UK, had loads of great craics with the irish visitors!) But because I was legally adopted and my family relations changed on paper, I cannot claim Irish citizenship.

I have moved here from the UK about 9 months ago, after finding a girlfriend, (long story see my yahoo blog for details) I found a job, but am now out sick with a back injury.

I will have to wait 5 yrs before applying for dual nationality, I even had to go to the British Embassy to get my passport replaced as I lost it!

Gurgle

DJ_Spider wrote:

I will have to wait 5 yrs before applying for dual nationality, I even had to go to the British Embassy to get my passport replaced as I lost it!

You're Brittish, I'm not sure I understand why an Irish passport is of any use to you?

DJ_Spider

So I can stay here permanently, and marry my g/f. Even though I am only from the other side of the water I still had to apply at the embassy for my replacement UK passport. <note to self - must call the embassy and see if it's ready!>

oscarBravo

You're a citizen of an EU country. You're automatically entitled to stay here permanently, and you can marry whomever you like.

Time Magazine

And if you marry her you're on the citizenship fast-lane.

Get in there my son .

Lennoxschips

Dub13 wrote:

I hate this augment,what if the Brits pull out...?

er, i don't know, didn't they leave a while ago?

Hobbes

Ibid wrote:

And if you marry her you're on the citizenship fast-lane.

They stopped that malarkey some years back. There was a hidden (in that not overly made public) that once you married you could receive citizenship straight away.

That law is gone, now you have to wait 3 years at least before you can apply for citizenship by marriage and even then you can be refused without ever being given a reason why.

Time Magazine

Hobbes wrote:

They stopped that malarkey some years back. There was a hidden (in that not overly made public) that once you married you could receive citizenship straight away.

That law is gone, now you have to wait 3 years at least before you can apply for citizenship by marriage and even then you can be refused without ever being given a reason why.

Aye, but isn't it five years for non-married people?

Hobbes

Ibid wrote:

Aye, but isn't it five years for non-married people?

Indeed and a further 24 months+ in paperwork and red tape.

Although I wouldn't call either a fast track and at a guess the marriage one is liable to get more checked up.

If the marriage was just for a citizenship you both will get into trouble.

Marriage applications can be refused without a reason explained while the other process you will be told why it was refused.

The marriage application is a bit fuzzy as well. For example if you got married and the person was on a holiday visa prior to that or just entered the country it can take as long as the naturalisation one.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/moving-country/irish-citizenship/your_right_to_irish_citizenship/?searchterm=citizenship

Mucco

DJ_Spider wrote:

So I can stay here permanently, and marry my g/f. Even though I am only from the other side of the water I still had to apply at the embassy for my replacement UK passport. <note to self - must call the embassy and see if it's ready!>

If you lost your Irish passport, you'd have to claim at the Irish passport office for a new one. I'd say the queue at the embassy is shorter.

walrusgumble

InFront wrote:

There is a two-tiered approach to immigration in this country. Do you know that the Renewal of the 'Permission to Remain with an irish Born Child' Scheme for non EU nationals came into effect a few days ago? This means that you, with a great grandparent from Ireland but who may well (for all officialdom knows) never even have heard of ireland, have more right to be here today than parents with a child born in Holles Street in 2004 and is now in his 3rd year at least.

Those pre-2005 children have began speaking with irish accents (and may have started school here). Yet it is unclear whether their own parents will be allowed to stay. I personally, would be much more interested in seeing the parents of those children being given the right to remain here with them.

here here on what you said.

with regard to the ibcs 2005, over 18000 applied and over 17000 were granted, the renewal is available to them only if they can prove inter alia, that they have sought meaniful employment, have intergrated into society and refrain from criminal acivity. a person like the original poster would not be considered for the renewal. i can not imagine how many will be rejected considering their length of time in the state and as you correctly said, their children going to school (and depending on the school they go will have to learn irish) will have an even stronger connection with the state. many of the parents will be working (even supermac's (an example) would be argued as meaniful economical employment if one argues european law's liberal interpretation of it through their case law)

many non eu nationals eg the poles (just an example as eu citizenship allows them in) will prove that they had know problem intergrating into society as they will have new friends, joined groups, and work and pay taxes etc

walrusgumble

any way all this guy can do is just apply for a visa come here for a few years etc, like any other immigrant, he should not have too much problems considering his nationality,

MrPudding

DJ_Spider wrote:

Even though I am only from the other side of the water I still had to apply at the embassy for my replacement UK passport. <note to self - must call the embassy and see if it's ready!>

What? Did you expect to pick it up in Superquin or something? Where else would you get it?

This would be the procedure for just about every country in the world. Britain does not have a passport office in Ireland, Ireland has a passport office in Ireland.

MrP

Gurgle

DJ_Spider wrote:

So I can stay here permanently, and marry my g/f.

Interesting, your computer seems to have a virus that randomly deletes countries from the EU. Let me know if this post doesn't make it through.

Lennoxschips

DJ Spider, you can live here as long as you want as an EU citizen. As a UK citizen you are even entitled to vote in Irish general elections.

If your biological mother is Irish then you also have every right to an Irish passport, providing you have the correct documentation to prove it. So you could have both a British and an Irish passport, if you'd like.

philologos

sceptre wrote:

I'm also reasonably open to the US joining the EU some day if they manage to sort out their human rights issues. .

Why would the US join the EU? They aren't in Europe...

Lennoxschips

Then change the name, it couldn't be that difficult.

philologos

Europe and America should be kept seperate, I prefer the individuality and diversity that we have in Europe and if the EU was changed to allow all countries then it would be a shame in my opinion.

Hydroquinone

DJ_Spider wrote:

So I can stay here permanently, and marry my g/f. Even though I am only from the other side of the water I still had to apply at the embassy for my replacement UK passport. <note to self - must call the embassy and see if it's ready!>

Any Irish citizen has the right to stay in the UK indefinitely, ragardless of their marital status and the same is true for any British citizen wanting to stay in Ireland indefinitely. THis has always been the case, even prior to the invention of the EU.
There has always been a special relationship between the two countries. That's why they let you travel between the two on a driver's licence, rather than needing a passport.

The only thing extra thing that Irish citizenship will confer on you is the right to vote in a constitutional referendum.

sceptre

Jakkass wrote:

Why would the US join the EU? They aren't in Europe...

Neither is Cyprus.

And you're taking it a little too seriously as a suggestion if you're taking it seriously as a suggestion at all, though I'm not completely forever against the idea, though perhaps admitting the Russians first might be an option. Either way it's slightly outside of the original or evolved reason for this thread, though I'll happily discuss it seriously in about fifty years.

philologos

agreed neither is the French Guyana but it is part of it, maybe the overseas territory exception applys in the case of Cyprus considering the Greek Cypriot part is only in the EU (the situation still confuses me slightly). But at least it is closer to Europe than America is.

Cake Fiend

Jakkass wrote:

Why would the US join the EU? They aren't in Europe...

Watch out for those low-flying aircraft...

Diogenes

eric_31 wrote:

I have lots of Irish ancestors, but my closest link to Ireland is my great-grandmother who came to the US as a child. Until the law is changed, I will not be able to obtain Irish citizenship.

Eric Hafner, New Jersey, US.

You wouldn't happen to be an attacking midfielder, with fantastic stamina?

Cause we'd change the citizenship law in a heartbeat if you were.

Victor

Jakkass wrote:

agreed neither is the French Guyana but it is part of it, maybe the overseas territory exception applys in the case of Cyprus considering the Greek Cypriot part is only in the EU (the situation still confuses me slightly). But at least it is closer to Europe than America is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_member_state_territories_and_their_relations_with_the_EU

dochasach

InFront wrote:

Quite a large number of the Irish diaspora, as far as i understand, would have emigrated in the 1950s and 60s, and then again in the post EEC restructuring period of the 1980s. This country will be feeling the ramifications of its emigrative history for rather a long time into future genrations. In fairness, you have to stop somewhere.

Ireland currently has a large immigrant pool, and it's quite a headache.
Being a non EEA economic migrant (or son thereof) I am admittedly biased, but basically your claim is that you have greater right to be here than I do.

This is why I think that is unfair. Take families with parents who are hardworking, for whom bringing up their children in Ireland is economically advantageous, and who have something that they can prove is of benefit to Ireland (usually a professional career, or a scholarship in the case of single individuals, and then unskilled workers to the point where certain sectors of the economy can sustain it and need it).
I would suggest that these people have on a very superficial level, greater immigrative merit than somebody else from outside the EU who has nothing rather than the return of one of her citzen's American great great grandsons to offer the state.
I would even question the necessity of granting an American with one generation 'grandparent citizenship' his residency on that basis alone. This is the case at present?

Surely the most sensible thing is to judge all immigration applications on the basis of their individual merit? I can see how, if one has an Irish parent one can feel a great tie with that country, but even a grandparent? I mean I have one grandmother who was born in India and the cultural or family tie I feel with that country amounts to approximately nothing. I certainly shouldn't think such a pointless fact of geneaology guarantees me to Indian citizenship, despite the terrible, historic parallells of 'forced' emigration that country has with Ireland.

There is a two-tiered approach to immigration in this country. Do you know that the Renewal of the 'Permission to Remain with an irish Born Child' Scheme for non EU nationals came into effect a few days ago? This means that you, with a great grandparent from Ireland but who may well (for all officialdom knows) never even have heard of ireland, have more right to be here today than parents with a child born in Holles Street in 2004 and is now in his 3rd year at least.

Those pre-2005 children have began speaking with irish accents (and may have started school here). Yet it is unclear whether their own parents will be allowed to stay. I personally, would be much more interested in seeing the parents of those children being given the right to remain here with them.

They are Irish children, and whilst their unborn great grandchildren will be allowed to come and go as they choose 100 years down the line, their own mothers enjoy no such freedom. I would suggest that an infant needs his mother rather than his potential grandchildren.

Well said. Am I the only one who would like to see a immigration or "blow-in" category on boards.ie under Soc? Perhaps Ireland would rather pretend we don't exist. A canvassing FF candidate was at my door the other day and was eager quickly passover our door when he heard my accent and remarked that we can't vote.

I've been here more than 5 years and my daughter all her life yet our visa, along with thousands of others in our situation is due to expire in days. The procedure for renewal was announced in January, we along with other friends submitted for renewal immediately and we were both told that it would not be looked at until after it expires. Myself and friends also faced people in the department who didn't understand the current system and who rejected out of hand requests which were clearly part of the prescribed process.

Thousands of new Irish and their parents are in limbo. Many have been here for more than 5 years and will seemingly always be stuck in the limbo of random two-year renewals while those without children on ordinary work permits their entire stay are allowed to apply for a green card after 5 years.

And now we hear that once again an election is upon us and rather than come up with a plan to use Irish prosperity to modernize infrastructure, improve health care, schools and housing affordability; we hear that once again Tanaiste McDowel(l) is trying to redirect our attention from problems they should have addressed. Ask LePenn in France or Pat Buchanan in the U.S., immigrants make very good pre-election scapegoats. Last election it was "citizenship tourists" and now it is "marriages of convenience."

I don't know whether to laugh or cry when Bertie grovels on behalf of Irish illegal immigrants in the U.S. and Dermot Ahern says Ireland has the best immigration system in the world. Either he is totally out of touch with what is going on, or (more disturbingly) he knows exactly the gauntlet of chaos new immigrants face here.

metrovelvet

Irish citizenship policy is completely bizarre.

I am a dual citizen, granted through my parents - not residency - although am also a dual resident.

My parents didnt become US citizens until the mid 80s so it was always a little weird going on different immigration lines when travelling back and forth, it made a kind of practical sense that I would have their citizenship also, despite not having their nationhood, if you get me. Yet if I had a child born in Ireland it would not get citizneship because I wasn't born there, even though I am a citizen and dual resident. Yet if I had a child and it could be born anywhere and still be entitled to US citizenship.

Another Irish solution to an Irish problem.