Fear Aggression (I think) How to nip in the bud?

fits

I have a neutered lurcher for six months now. He was a stray and I took him in. About a month ago, he was attacked by a loose German Shepherd when he was on a lead. Since this happened I've had three incidents where he has attacked male dogs (once when he was off lead, twice when he was on). He is quite young, probably about two years old, and before this was very submissive and got on well with all other dogs ( I had no problem integrating him into my house with another male lurcher before he was neutered). How do I prevent this becoming a problem? How do I react when it happens? I really do believe its stems from fear of being attacked again rather than poor socialisation.

His personality is quite aloof although he is becoming friendlier. He doesnt really play much with other dogs or with toys, and he is a very large lurcher, possibly with wolfhound or borzoi (or both) in him.

Gillie

There is actually an interesting discussion already on this forum regarding dogs being on leads.
When your dog is on the lead it is unacceptable for your dog to be attacked.

fits

I know it is unacceptable, but it has happened now, and I have to deal with it somehow before he becomes the aggressor himself. I'm very careful with him when he is off lead, but I need to be able to trust him not to attack other dogs.

Gillie

Is there any way you could "socialise" him with some new dogs in a controlled environment.
Perhaps a friend with a pooch that you lurcher hasn't met yet?

fits

Unfortunately I have no friends who own male dogs. Only females. (I think it has just been male dogs he has had the problem with)

Gillie

I'm sure someone in this forum can help you. Where about are you?

fits

The dog is in Wicklow (I'm not there during the week atm)

peasant

From what you've written, I would think that your "diagnosis" of fear aggression is probably correct.

This is a difficult one to handle.

What seems to work for most people, is to condition the dog to come to you, as soon as it sees other dogs.

Fill your pockets with goodies, keep your eyes open and as soon as you see another dog approaching, call yours and stuff some goodies down it's throat

Over time it will learn to associate approaching dog with food and come to you automatically.

While this takes care of your dog storming off and attacking others, there is still the danger of other dogs attacking yours for no reason.

This is where it gets difficult because you will have to take over the role of "defender of the pack" without getting your dog to join in in the defending.

Sometimes stepping between the attacker and your dog is all it takes to diffuse the aggression...sometimes a row just can't be avoided and training has to start from fresh again

fits

Thanks Peasant. I'm so disappointed that this has happened, as he was so happy around other dogs before.

peasant wrote:

What seems to work for most people, is to condition the dog to come to you, as soon as it sees other dogs.

Fill your pockets with goodies, keep your eyes open and as soon as you see another dog approaching, call yours and stuff some goodies down it's throat

(

This is something I will start doing next weekend. I have him six months, and when I got him he was in a bad way, very underweight, mangy, wormy... the lot. In addition to this, he did not react to my voice at all initially. I had no recall whatsoever for the first three months or so, and tbh, he'll never be a totally obedient dog, although he has improved so much, especially in the last two months. I just wish i could give him back his confidence. A friend was walking him when he was attacked, which probably didnt help either.

Gillie

One other thing. If there is a dog approaching, your demeanor is very important. Remember that your dog senses if your nervous and reacts accordingly.
Don't make a fuss at all if there is another dog. Be calm and re-assure him with words.

PTL

Hey, Well i downloaded a torrent when i got my dobe first "dog whisperer"... the mexican fella and none of the stuff really helped me because most of it is about aggressive dogs and aggression to other dogs but i think it would be very good for you ...

Theres stages of dogs aggression ... when ur lurcher see's another dog and gets more alert that would be stage one ... then he starts pulling and getting closer and worked up thats 2 and when he strikes/barks its stage 3 and basically at stage one you have to get his attension to you and not the dog ... one way is that when he see's another dog that your walking towards just turn around and walk the other way then turn back around and walk towards it and somehow it tells the dog that the other one isnt a threat. Like most likely your lurcher is protecting you and not himself.

If that fails then theres an EXCELLENT trainer that i can't recommend enough www.tagnrye.com her name is juile holmes and i got her to come down and train my family not the dog and basically she teaches you to be dominant assertive not dominate aggressive and you become the pack leader and basically the dog will feel comfortable around you cause your its leader and my dobe was dominate and stuburn but now he knows whos boss

SuzyS1972

Yes I can vouch for Julie Holmes
We had her over a few years back when my ex had a fear agressive terrier
Worked wonders on us and we applied it to the dog !

fits

PTL wrote:

Theres stages of dogs aggression ... when ur lurcher see's another dog and gets more alert that would be stage one ... then he starts pulling and getting closer and worked up thats 2 and when he strikes/barks its stage 3 and basically at stage one you have to get his attension to you and not the dog ... one way is that when he see's another dog that your walking towards just turn around and walk the other way then turn back around and walk towards it and somehow it tells the dog that the other one isnt a threat. Like most likely your lurcher is protecting you and not himself.

Thing is, I don't get any 'warning' when it happens. We met a rough collie on Sunday morning, my two were leashed and collie was leashed and after asking, we let the dogs sniff each other. Everything was fine for 10 seconds and then out of nowhere, Bob just freaked! I'm probably not reading his signals properly, but he didnt have his tail up or anything, like my other dog would if he was getting aggravated. He was fine meeting several other dogs on Sunday, but the collie was a full male, I'm not sure what sex the other dogs were. I might try the walking in other direction and reassuring him a bit more.

He's the big boy on the right. The cheeky little so and so on the left is my other fellow...


I'll check out Julie Holmes.

PTL

i forgot to say what Gillie pointed out that your voice should reflect the situation, so calm words but i'd normally stay away from the goodboy word in that situation because it excites the dog and multiplys what ever there thinking about He's a lovely dog and a big fella, i'm sure that this will be easily trained out of him.

Gillie

I use a stern "come on now" or "don't start that messing" in a quiet non-aggressive tone.
If he behaves himself he gets a "good boy" after!

BeauZak

Hi Guys,

Suggest that those of you speaking of "dominance" whether passive or aggressive do a little more research into dominance theories, rank reduction techniques etc (these are what they use to retrain on these TV shows.

Read anything by Ray and Lorna Coppinger (real behaviourists who know about dogs not just TV wanna be's) Click here for more info: http://www.workingdogweb.com/Coppinger.htm

Also purchase a book by Barry Eaton called Dominance fact or fiction.

http://www.barry.eaton.clara.net/factorfiction.htm

I do hope it opens your eyes. Professional dog trainers and behaviourists are up to date on the "pack theories" which have now pretty much been disproved.

Pack related behaviours are based on wolf studies but just to throw them on their head. The alpha wolf doesn't eat first, the young do when food is scarce, the females will go without for their pups and when food is easily available they ALL eat. Also to compare wolves to dogs is like comparing chimps to humans.

Some interesting reading:

Also consider the dangers of advising people to challenge their dog or attempt to be top dog by controlling food, staring their dog down. When dealing with aggression you DO NOT do these things unless you wish to be injured, you get to the root cause and subscribe to a suitable behaviour modification technique.

If you really are interested I suggest you discontinue watching that silly TV guy who's show is soon to be discontinued due to various lawsuits against him. Google the info.

For those of you who understand canine body language you will agree that the dogs on these TV programs are disturbed during the training. Look for wide eyes, rigid body, head low. For those of you who do not understand canine body language I suggest you do research and then watch the programme again! There are some excellent DVD's on www.dogwise.com.

I hope this information is useful to those of you who understand and want to learn more about dogs, their behaviour and what really makes them tick. I am certainly one of these people with aggression being my main area of interest. I have worked with aggressive dogs and continue to do so and I do not subscribe to any dominance or rank reduction techniques.

Fear aggression can be treated but not without seeing the dog. It is treated using counter conditioning and desensitisation. If you want to PM me I will reply and help you.

FranknFurter

BeauZak wrote:

If you want to PM me I will reply and help you.

Just to clarify Beauzak. You mean for free not fee right? (Pimping for buisness is not allowed on this site as you know, so for your own sake this needs clarification).

There are MANY theories and MANY studies and MANY differing techniques and practices regarding the training methods of dogs (problematic or otherwise).

No one single trainer is necessarilly "right" and you should find the one who you feel most comfortable and confident with.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and this forum is NOT a place to come to for "professional" advice. Personal advice and advice from other animal lovers is fine but never assume its "professional advice".

B

BeauZak

Clarification: Answer - Yes of course.

I have no need or desire to advertise on this board (we are selective as to where we advertise) nor have I any need what so ever to pimp for business from this board or any other board. I am busy enough thanks

This was a plain and simple offer of help.

FranknFurter

Ok, just wanted to be 100% sure as I have noticed a lot of mention of DTI online of late. Always makes me suspicious. Im just that "type" of person.

B

BeauZak

SSSSSSSSshhhhhhhhhh don't say DTI