JJ BB 1st hand

a-k-47 · 06-01-2007 2:35am #1

1/2 nl shortstack buyin $60. 9 seated.. seen 3 hands at table waiting for blinds, so dont have any info on villains.

On the BB with JJ...

Ep to Mp both limp...

Sb (covers) makes it 10...
i flat call with 2 to act...

Ep (27)$ Mp(covers) both complete...

FLOP
10s 2d 10d

sb checks
i check.. lead for 3/4 pot?...

EP pushed remainding 17
MP Flat calls..

sb folds

i?

RasTa · 06-01-2007 2:41am

Jam on it

phantom_lord · 06-01-2007 2:44am

buy in for $200

opr · 06-01-2007 3:00am

I presume when you state in your original post that you are buying in for this amount it is with the intention of playing NL short stack Strategy ?

Opr

a-k-47 · 06-01-2007 3:52am

phantom_lord wrote:

buy in for $200

lol im only back playing, deposited 60e 2day. so im just playing around atm...bankroll is up to 400 already...

opr yes shortstack strategy, so jam it pre flop?... was thinking about pushing pf but wasnt sure with ep mp and sb to act!...

i know its all but obvious that this is quite possibly the worst BR management skills on boards(world), but it has worked for me plenty of times in the past.. ill be at 1k by sunday

...

(broke by monday)

anyway ill give the results if i can get a reply worth reading ... hj fuzz ?

MacStacked · 06-01-2007 4:12am

With 30 bbs you can not call off 17% of you're stack here to play a four way pot with JJ, your hand is too strong for this and you are not getting the required odds to play this for set value.

Reraise/push pf.

Buy in for the full.

opr · 06-01-2007 4:46am

MacStacked wrote:

Buy in for the full.

I am no expert on short stack stradegy in cash games but have been reading about them alot lately. More form the point of view of seeing what makes playing a short stack profitable so i can play against them better.

Ed Miller quote
"play a strong short stack strategy, you’ll have an edge, no matter how good your opponents are. That is, you’ll have an edge as long as they play loose enough that you can overcome the rake."

So i mean playing this way isn't without merit.

MacStacked wrote:

With 30 bbs you can not call off 17% of you're stack here to play a four way pot with JJ, your hand is too strong for this and you are not getting the required odds to play this for set value.

Reraise/push pf.

I don't agree that playing JJ multiway here is such a bad thing.

Ill quote Ed miller on this again cause i am tired and don't want to explain it myself and he does a far better job anyways.

"As for JJ wanting one caller, that idea has some merit when the stacks are deep, but when they’re so short as they are here, it’s not really true anymore. You’re happy to get as many callers as want to come along, as you’ll be getting far the best of it. If more players come along, it’s just more money that you’re getting the best of. You’re playing “showdown” poker, and JJ is going to do very well against any number of players in that scenario."

This carries a subtlety that often confuses people. JJ will win less often against 3 or 4 opponents than against one, of course. But your risk in facing more drawing opponents is compensated by the much larger pot you win. And in the fundamentals of SSNL it’s not rare at all to get a big raise like this called by a lot of people who feel lucky, don’t really understand implied odd

Opr

opr · 06-01-2007 5:26am

a-k-47 wrote:

opr yes shortstack strategy, so jam it pre flop?... was thinking about pushing pf but wasnt sure with ep mp and sb to act!...

I was just asking cause i was interested if playing SSNL was something you did alot. I don't think either calling or reraising preflop is bad.

I think on the flop its fold or All in. So in that case its just about odds really.

I don't think cold caller is going to fold so.

Pot is gonna be 107 and its 50 to call. Thats 2.14-1 so we need to win 31% of the time to break even. If you are behind we have two outs which means we will still win about 8% of the time.
So that means we need to be ahead about 23% of the time to break even.

I think we will be ahead here enough to make it ok.

Opr

opr · 06-01-2007 5:54am

Off to bed i would just like to make clear i do of course think it is much better to buy in for the full amount i just think playing SSNL can be a good thing.

I wondered if AK47 had put the hand purely up as a SSNL hand for discussion but if you can beat this game AK47 i do think you lose alot by playing this way and should drop down and build a roll.

Ed Miller doesn't advocate it as a way of playing all the time but it can be very useful to show people how to think in certain situations. Also by using this stategy, you simplify your decisions since they are very maths based and less "poker based." improving this part of your game and i think you learn alot about how to play against short stacks when you understand yourself how playing this way can be profitable and what better way to do this than try it.

Opr

valor · 06-01-2007 6:13am

I would just shove preflop

RoundTower · 06-01-2007 10:41am

the reason you buy in for 60 is so that you dont have tough decisions to make, therefore you should go all in at some point in the hand either now or preflop.

a-k-47 · 06-01-2007 12:46pm

opr wrote:

Off to bed i would just like to make clear i do of course think it is much better to buy in for the full amount i just think playing SSNL can be a good thing.

I wondered if AK47 had put the hand purely up as a SSNL hand for discussion but if you can beat this game AK47 i do think you lose alot by playing this way and should drop down and build a roll.

Ed Miller doesn't advocate it as a way of playing all the time but it can be very useful to show people how to think in certain situations. Also by using this stategy, you simplify your decisions since they are very maths based and less "poker based." improving this part of your game and i think you learn alot about how to play against short stacks when you understand yourself how playing this way can be profitable and what better way to do this than try it.

Opr

TBH when my bankroll is as small as 60e i almost never drop down to the micro levels.. i will just play ssnl out of my br and gamble it... when i have achieved a couple of hundred $ i go back to playing mtt's, which is the stronger part of my game.

Valor i dont particularly like the push pre flop with an early limper, i wanted a look at the flop and more value added, before i moved.

When EP pushed i put him on FD, hes not pushing with 10's. Mp i was abit worried about but hoped he didnt have a piece of it mayb mid pp also.

I thought about it, used up my time and re raised to mp all in.

EP turned A8
MP 99
SB folded...

and it held up...

was this the right move? or did i just get lucky.

btw thanks for the helpful replies valor

MacStacked · 06-01-2007 3:11pm

Yes on the flop moving all-in is ok. The pot is already now bigger than our stack.

I dont agree with or at best dont understand what Ed Millar is suggesting.

Yes shortstack play can give you an edge. This edge comes from making all your key decisions before the flop. This works against good and bad players.(Harrington talks about a somewhat related strategy for tournament play in HOH1 although not strictly for a shortstack)

And as for playing JJ without a raise shortstacked against 3 or 4 players, I would much rather be deepstacked enough to fully benefit (be paid off) for when I hit trips if im deciding to get funky with it.

You’re happy to get as many callers as want to come along, as you’ll be getting far the best of it. If more players come along, it’s just more money that you’re getting the best of. You’re playing “showdown” poker, and JJ is going to do very well against any number of players in that scenario."

My understanding of this point is that he is referring to a situation when you will be all in and so you are getting great value on your money with JJ, because it is by no means certain you are getting to a 'showdown' otherwise obviously.

A-k-47 The problem I have with not raising is simple.
57% of the time an overcard will appear on the flop. Thus we have committed 17% of our stack and probably no longer have the best hand.

The idea of shortstack play is that you can not see a number of flops cheaply (especially not to a raise that will end up 4-way) but rather as roundtower has pointed out that you have simple decisions i.e. when you get a good hand you get as much money in as possible, as early as possible. So re-raising pumping preflop is by far optimum imo.

a-k-47 · 06-01-2007 5:03pm

MacStacked wrote:

Yes on the flop moving all-in is ok. The pot is already now bigger than our stack.

I dont agree with or at best dont understand what Ed Millar is suggesting.

Yes shortstack play can give you an edge. This edge comes from making all your key decisions before the flop. This works against good and bad players.(Harrington talks about a somewhat related strategy for tournament play in HOH1 although not strictly for a shortstack)

And as for playing JJ without a raise shortstacked against 3 or 4 players, I would much rather be deepstacked enough to fully benefit (be paid off) for when I hit trips if im deciding to get funky with it.

You’re happy to get as many callers as want to come along, as you’ll be getting far the best of it. If more players come along, it’s just more money that you’re getting the best of. You’re playing “showdown” poker, and JJ is going to do very well against any number of players in that scenario."

My understanding of this point is that he is referring to a situation when you will be all in and so you are getting great value on your money with JJ, because it is by no means certain you are getting to a 'showdown' otherwise obviously.

A-k-47 The problem I have with not raising is simple.
57% of the time an overcard will appear on the flop. Thus we have committed 17% of our stack and probably no longer have the best hand.

The idea of shortstack play is that you can not see a number of flops cheaply (especially not to a raise that will end up 4-way) but rather as roundtower has pointed out that you have simple decisions i.e. when you get a good hand you get as much money in as possible, as early as possible. So re-raising pumping preflop is by far optimum imo.

agreed, prefer to re raise into one player only though in that particular hand.. overall though that would be best way to play ssnl

opr · 06-01-2007 7:02pm

MacStacked wrote:

Yes on the flop moving all-in is ok. The pot is already now bigger than our stack.

This is a Fundamental idea that the odds we create here is hugely in our favour.

MacStacked wrote:

I dont agree with or at best dont understand what Ed Millar is suggesting.

Yes shortstack play can give you an edge. This edge comes from making all your key decisions before the flop. This works against good and bad players.(Harrington talks about a somewhat related strategy for tournament play in HOH1 although not strictly for a shortstack)

The ideas which you talk about and also refer to reading about in HOH1 are tournament ideas which have little relevence in a cash game. I mean i would never advocate a short stack to take a four way pot in a tournament like this. My advice is purely for cash play.

MacStacked wrote:

And as for playing JJ without a raise shortstacked against 3 or 4 players, I would much rather be deepstacked enough to fully benefit (be paid off) for when I hit trips if im deciding to get funky with it.

The pot was raised to 5 times the BB ? I am not looking to hit trips with the JJ to make this a profitable play in the long run. It about the showdown value of JJ in relation to 3 other random hands 2 of which i would suggest are bad drawing hands preflop as they have limped called a raise.

MacStacked wrote:

You’re happy to get as many callers as want to come along, as you’ll be getting far the best of it. If more players come along, it’s just more money that you’re getting the best of. You’re playing “showdown” poker, and JJ is going to do very well against any number of players in that scenario."

My understanding of this point is that he is referring to a situation when you will be all in and so you are getting great value on your money with JJ, because it is by no means certain you are getting to a 'showdown' otherwise obviously.

I mean the hand in this example has been very overcomplicated as Roundtower pointed out when you play SSNL strategy your objective when you play a hand is to get All in either before or after the flop so we are very much playing SHOWDOWN poker the pot wil almost ALWAYS lay odds that are far to good to fold any flop.

MacStacked wrote:

A-k-47 The problem I have with not raising is simple.
57% of the time an overcard will appear on the flop. Thus we have committed 17% of our stack and probably no longer have the best hand.

The maths here is pretty complicated i might do it up later but you have to remember by playing these mutiway pots we are creating very good odds on our money so we don't really care about losing 57% of the time. Remember when we commit that huge amount of our stack preflop often alot of players on the flop will often just call because the price is so low. This looseness or gamble is very good for this type of play.

MacStacked wrote:

The idea of shortstack play is that you can not see a number of flops cheaply (especially not to a raise that will end up 4-way) but rather as roundtower has pointed out that you have simple decisions i.e. when you get a good hand you get as much money in as possible, as early as possible. So re-raising pumping preflop is by far optimum imo.

This is very wrong with a short stack you want to be seeing very few flops as when we commit any chips it is with the intention of getting it all in the middle. The hands you play should be 10,10+.

Our decisions still remain simple when we play multiway pots. Its just a maths decision we have no difficult poker decisions to make.

Opr

opr · 06-01-2007 7:07pm

a-k-47 wrote:

Valor i dont particularly like the push pre flop with an early limper, i wanted a look at the flop and more value added, before i moved.

When EP pushed i put him on FD, hes not pushing with 10's. Mp i was abit worried about but hoped he didnt have a piece of it mayb mid pp also.

You seem to be basing this decision alot on poker. This hand should really just be a maths question when you play SSNL.

Opr

MacStacked · 06-01-2007 7:38pm

The ideas which you talk about and also refer to reading about in HOH1 are tournament ideas which have little relevence in a cash game. I mean i would never advocate a short stack to take a four way pot in a tournament like this. My advice is purely for cash play

Im aware the concepts Harrington talks about are for a tournament. But one of the concepts is related that: you play your good hands fast and strong and see very little flops.

The pot was raised to 5 times the BB ? I am not looking to hit trips with the JJ to make this a profitable play in the long run. It about the showdown value of JJ in relation to 3 other random hands 2 of which i would suggest are bad drawing hands preflop as they have limped called a raise.

I dont understand what you are trying to say here. The fact of the 5bb raise matters very little if you are still playing a 4way pot. This hand was played out not as some sort of stop and go the op was planning on re-assessing on the flop.

I mean the hand in this example has been very overcomplicated as Roundtower pointed out when you play SSNL strategy your objective when you play a hand is to get All in either before or after the flop so we are very much playing SHOWDOWN poker the pot wil almost ALWAYS lay odds that are far to good to fold any flop.

Yes this is true. By reraising preflop we can be certain we are going to showdown. Opr do u mean to say that calling with the intention of getting it all-in on any flop against 4 random hands is better than reraising? Do u go all in on A K 6 flop with a potsize bet before you?

Originally Posted by MacStacked
The idea of shortstack play is that you can not see a number of flops cheaply (especially not to a raise that will end up 4-way) but rather as roundtower has pointed out that you have simple decisions i.e. when you get a good hand you get as much money in as possible, as early as possible. So re-raising pumping preflop is by far optimum imo.

This is very wrong with a short stack you want to be seeing very few flops as when we commit any chips it is with the intention of getting it all in the middle. The hands you play should be 10,10+.

Are you not just agreeing with what i have said..?

Mellor · 06-01-2007 8:44pm

opr wrote:

Pot is gonna be 107 and its 50 to call. Thats 2.14-1 so we need to win 31% of the time to break even. If you are behind we have two outs which means we will still win about 8% of the time.
So that means we need to be ahead about 23% of the time to break even.

I think we will be ahead here enough to make it ok.

Opr

I seen your comment that this should be about maths. Maths is a strong enough part of my game. At least better than the weaker parts or my game.

There is one massive flaw with your thinking above. 31% is the break even mark, and we come from behind 8% of the time. So you suggest that we are head 23% of the time to make this a call. If we are ahead then surely are are against two overs at least. And the villian is drawing to 6 outs. Or a flush draw, 9 outs (this could also reduce our 2 previous out as the op doiesnt say weither the Jd is in his hand.)
So lets give the overs the weighting, say that wen we are ahead we are against 7 outs. Add in the caller, at best has an under pair. Thats another two outs. Ahead against 9 outs, we are probably staying ahead 60% of the time. Our 23% we needed is now only worth 14%.
Its now a -ev call.
We need to be ahead 38%.
Coming from behind 8% is misscounted also. As it isn't 8% total, its 8% of when we are behind (100-38=62%). So the 8% worth About 5%.
This means we need to be ahead a little bit more. About 40%.

I know it long winded, but the 23% you said we needed, is actualy closer to 40%.

opr · 06-01-2007 8:56pm

MacStacked wrote:

Im aware the concepts Harrington talks about are for a tournament. But one of the concepts is related that: you play your good hands fast and strong and see very little flops.

What ? I don't understand what you are trying to say. In cash games we want to see lots of flops ?

MacStacked wrote:

I dont understand what you are trying to say here. The fact of the 5bb raise matters very little if you are still playing a 4way pot. This hand was played out not as some sort of stop and go the op was planning on re-assessing on the flop.

This is because the OP does not seem to really understand the fundamentals of play a SSNL.
You can reasse on the flop as long as your decision is maths based.

MacStacked wrote:

Yes this is true. By reraising preflop we can be certain we are going to showdown. Opr do u mean to say that calling with the intention of getting it all-in on any flop against 4 random hands is better than reraising? Do u go all in on A K 6 flop with a potsize bet before you?

Again stop and go relates to tournaments. It takes into account your fold equity and loads of other stuff.

Moving in on the flop here he purely a maths and pot odds based question.

In other words it is an odds based question not a poker question. If its potted and folded round to me you need to work out what kind of equity you need to break even and go from their.

Your giving the one specific example were we are not in good shape are are probably behind to A K 6 but let say we run this OVER AND OVER AND OVER which is what poker is about the LONG TERM. Taking JJ to a multiway pot here will be very good on other flops.

Its not about one specific hand and how its turn out when we play JJ multiway but about what happens when you do this in the long term.

I am not disagreeing that pushing before the flop is a BAD play i am just saying that taking a multiway pot in this sitution is not such a bad thing. You seem to be concentrating on the fact that you will lose this hand a large number of time when we take it mutiway and this is very true. What matters here is if you can create the right odds when playing JJ mutiway to break even or better and because of JJ showdown value against 4 ramdom hands this is not such a bad things.

Simplified example
Think of it like this.

I have four horses lets call them A,B,C,D

A in a four way race wins about 40% of the time but in a 2 way race he win about 65% of the time.

Ok if i take the 2 way race i will win 65% of the time but only get even money.

If i take the 4 way race i will only win 40% of the time but get 4 times my money.

In the long term racing 4 way will make us the greatest profit but with a HIGHER risk.

Ok so now i have JJ in a 1-2 game with 60 behind its raised to 10 i decide to call and its call in 3 other spots.

So 4 to the flop and we check 2 decide to go all in on a NON Jack flop and one folds they both cover us.

So pot is now 140 and its 50 to call our equity is 26% if we are behind we can still hit a J so we need to win about 18% of the time. I mean not matter what the flop is surely we have the odds to call ??

This means in the long term we will make more because it is likely we are ahead more than 18% of the time. SO by the taking a mutiway pot here we will make money.

Each and every time the example will be a bit different but its just a maths question not a POKER one.

I am probably explaining this very badly but i am just trying to show because of the increased odds playing JJ multi is not that bad if you are getting the correct odds. After the flop what we have put in the pot does not matter its just an odds question in relation to the sitution you find yourself in and in the long run of this is +EV

Opr

opr · 06-01-2007 9:04pm

Mellor wrote:

I seen your comment that this should be about maths. Maths is a strong enough part of my game. At least better than the weaker parts or my game.

There is one massive flaw with your thinking above. 31% is the break even mark, and we come from behind 8% of the time. So you suggest that we are head 23% of the time to make this a call. If we are ahead then surely are are against two overs at least. And the villian is drawing to 6 outs. Or a flush draw, 9 outs (this could also reduce our 2 previous out as the op doiesnt say weither the Jd is in his hand.)
So lets give the overs the weighting, say that wen we are ahead we are against 7 outs. Add in the caller, at best has an under pair. Thats another two outs. Ahead against 9 outs, we are probably staying ahead 60% of the time. Our 23% we needed is now only worth 14%.
Its now a -ev call.
We need to be ahead 38%.
Coming from behind 8% is misscounted also. As it isn't 8% total, its 8% of when we are behind (100-38=62%). So the 8% worth About 5%.
This means we need to be ahead a little bit more. About 40%.

I know it long winded, but the 23% you said we needed, is actualy closer to 40%.

Yeah i though about this alot when i started working out these examples but in general people seem to ignore the UNKNOWN.

I mean all your calculations are based on assumptions about unknowns ? Surely when we make calculations in poker it is based on what we know at that point ? ( FACTS )

I would be interested in what you think on this cause it was something that bothered me alot when thinking about this ?

Thanks
Opr

Mellor · 06-01-2007 10:01pm

Its based on what we know, but we still need to assume roughly what hand we are against. Even without the estimating of hands.
It is a fact that if we are ahead now, we are easily drawn out on. Not many situations are possible that cause the villians to be dead atm.

As for JJ better in a multi-way verses head pot. Its through that JJ will win more money, but less often in a multi-way.
And it depends on your goal as to which is better. Are you playing SSNL to double up, or are you there to gamble it all on a big risk to win alot.

Taking your four horse race as an example, you have your last €50. Do you stick it on the 3/2 favourite, or risk it on the 4/1.

EP and MP showed weakness with both chances to act. Pushing pre-flop, or smooth calling are both fine. But you are playing to get it all in the middle. There are far worse flops than the one given. You have to be willing to take on a flush draw here. No overs to scare you. You can't call, push or fold. The pot is already almost twice your stack. A push doesn't give FD odds to call.

MacStacked · 06-01-2007 10:25pm

Specifically in this hand it is important to note that one of the other hands is worth raising with and that we will see a flop before people decide to take us up on our bet if we decide to move all-in this is a poker problem and a situation specific problem as there are other factors involved not just the maths: the content of the flop, the action, peoples calling ranges etc.
edit: I am referring to how the overall hand played out and not just the decision on the flop..

What ? I don't understand what you are trying to say. In cash games we want to see lots of flops?

In a cash game with a shortstack, say 30bbs, I want to get as much of my stack in as possible with a good hand before seeing a flop. With a hand as strong as JJ i want to invest as much as my stack p/f as i think will get called by a weaker hand...

Anyway thanks for that opr I do have a better understanding of what you were trying to say now. And I think alot of what you said is very true.

Of course if we could place a bet that our JJ was the best of four random hands, and would be the best at showdown, over an extended period we would make a lot of money.

opr · 06-01-2007 10:35pm

Mellor wrote:

Taking your four horse race as an example, you have your last €50. Do you stick it on the 3/2 favourite, or risk it on the 4/1.

Thats just silly i mean if its is my last €50 i shouldn't be gambling on horses

But being serious it is bad thinking to talk about it being your last 50 as i am talking about in the long term what is the most profitable play.
If in the long term backing the 4-1 even though it has more risk in the short term will make me more money i would much rather back it.

If your decision in poker is affected by the money thats involved and what will happen to it in the short term and not on what is the correct thing to do in the long term. You are playing to high.

Mellor wrote:

EP and MP showed weakness with both chances to act. Pushing pre-flop, or smooth calling are both fine. But you are playing to get it all in the middle. There are far worse flops than the one given. You have to be willing to take on a flush draw here. No overs to scare you. You can't call, push or fold. The pot is already almost twice your stack. A push doesn't give FD odds to call.

I am not saying that pushing is WRONG and never have i am just saying that calling is not bad. JJ against one raiser and two limped hands that call a raise will do very well when it gets to a show down when you run this as a simulation over millions and millions of times try and forget about the poker things in CERTAIN situations each time you replay this hand on the flop we will encounter poker reasons not to call but its not the poker stuff we are interested in.
I dont care if thier is a flush draw or overs or any of that other rubbish. It all irelevant info.
Its ALL about the MATHS odds that we are being given to call and if in the long term this makes it +EV

Opr

JJ BB 1st hand

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