The Economy and our Infrastructure

Why is our infrastructure worse than many many Third world countries?
Have there been any comparative studies done ? Ireland compared with anywhere etc.

Its just bad for business when half the country is sitting on the M50 burning petrol and diesel and wasting important, precious time.

The main Dublin to Waterford road for example, two of our Cities, is full of bends, potholes and little villages nearer the Waterford end.


Why do we have such BAD INFRASTUCTURE?

Time Magazine

Bad planning; failure by government to accommodate for the needs of the new Ireland. That said, with such a surge during the Celtic Tiger era, it was a tough job.

Now how to solve it, there's a question!

Cantab.

Ibid wrote:

Bad planning; failure by government to accommodate for the needs of the new Ireland. That said, with such a surge during the Celtic Tiger era, it was a tough job.

Now how to solve it, there's a question!

But we've had loads of money for the last 10-15 years? All we are left with now are half-built roads and tolls... I cannot see the problem with getting a bloody motorway built from Dublin to Cork, Galway, Waterford, Belfast, etc. (this is twenty 07) I was in Slovenia in 2003 and there was a motorway (the A1 and the A2) the whole way from Italy to Croatia for heaven's sake!!!

And as for the single lane railway between Dublin and Waterford!

We've never been mature enough to manage our own economy, and what happens when you give a little boy money? He goes down to the sweet shop and eats toffee bars until his teeth fall out. We need to be taught a hard lesson that benchmarking, property bubbles and corruption will haunt us for many, many years to come.

mike65

Don't worry Transport 21 will fix it all (!) and say yes to my Infrastructure forum.

The N9 upgrade has begun in a small way with the Carlow by-pass.

Mike.

The_Minister

blindjustice wrote:

Why is our infrastructure worse than many many Third world countries?

That's a bit of an overstatement. The only 3rd world countries that beat us are the ex-communist ones, whose works were funded mostly by the soviet union.
We used to have pretty good infrastructure, with the Dublin tram system etc., but when our economy hit the really bad times, we couldn't maintain it, and most of the places where our public transport would have gone were taken over for other types of uses, meaning that it is harder to rebuild our public transport.

EDIT: Mike I hope that that wasn't a pimp

Cantab.

The_Minister wrote:

That's a bit of an overstatement. The only 3rd world countries that beat us are the ex-communist ones, whose works were funded mostly by the soviet union.
We used to have pretty good infrastructure, with the Dublin tram system etc., but when our economy hit the really bad times, we couldn't maintain it, and most of the places where our public transport would have gone were taken over for other types of uses, meaning that it is harder to rebuild our public transport.

EDIT: Mike I hope that that wasn't a pimp

What a load of rubbish. The Slovenian motorway that I experienced certainly wasn't a by-product of communist times. The post-Yugoslav government decided that they wanted to be big boys and play ball in the global economy, so they built high-quality infrastructure that would attract investment and oil an ambitious economic plan. Guess what, Slovenia is the most prosperous country of transition Europe and is well-poised to join the mainstream of modern industrial economies.

Now Slovenia only broke free from Yugoslavia in 1991, experienced a massive war and they have better infrastructure than post-celtic-tiger Ireland. So arguments/excuses along the lines of "we have poor infrastructure in Ireland in 2007 because we have had to play catch-up" [quotation mine] wear very thinly, especially when you consider all the years (indeed decades) of EU structural funds and economic boom-times that have graced this little isle of ours.

justfortherecor

The Infrastructure deficit is effectively a legacy of Fiscal Stabilisation in the mid-late 80s. Capital expenditure on projects such as roads fell in real terms throughout the decade.

This cutting of expenditure on infrastructure was exposed in the 1990s with the surge in economic growth when the infrastructure of the country was pretty much in a stage of acute crisis.

To be fair, the government did try to address the problem in the NDP 2000-2006 but the cost to build 1km of a road effectively doubled between 1999-2002, leaving many of the projects running hopelessly overtime.

Govt has been using PPPs increasingly as a means to try and improve the situation but I think the jury is still out on them as well. Almost all PPP projects are concession types where the private builders get to run them and reap the rewards for a period afterwards, hence many of the new roads being toll roads. Poor contract design has meant some private companies have been earning excessive profits from these PPPs though (Westlink, Eastlink Bridges for example).

The argument about EU structural funds is not as important anymore either, the EU has been cutting back on them for a few years now. PPPs seem to be the choice for the govt, but I think this is only because it keeps the large capital expenditure off-balance sheets. The effect on the books is purely cosmetic.

Cantab.

justfortherecor wrote:

The Infrastructure deficit is effectively a legacy of Fiscal Stabilisation in the mid-late 80s. Capital expenditure on projects such as roads fell in real terms throughout the decade.

This cutting of expenditure on infrastructure was exposed in the 1990s with the surge in economic growth when the infrastructure of the country was pretty much in a stage of acute crisis.

To be fair, the government did try to address the problem in the NDP 2000-2006 but the cost to build 1km of a road effectively doubled between 1999-2002, leaving many of the projects running hopelessly overtime.

Govt has been using PPPs increasingly as a means to try and improve the situation but I think the jury is still out on them as well. Almost all PPP projects are concession types where the private builders get to run them and reap the rewards for a period afterwards, hence many of the new roads being toll roads. Poor contract design has meant some private companies have been earning excessive profits from these PPPs though (Westlink, Eastlink Bridges for example).

The argument about EU structural funds is not as important anymore either, the EU has been cutting back on them for a few years now. PPPs seem to be the choice for the govt, but I think this is only because it keeps the large capital expenditure off-balance sheets. The effect on the books is purely cosmetic.

Excuses, excuses. Road-building is not rocket science. We've squandered many an opportunity, and I don't buy anecdotal justification for the dismal failure of the Ireland, as a nation, to provide basic infrastructural projects.

wingnut

The Welsh economy has never been so hot but the roads are far superior to our roads. I was working in a small rural town and had dual carriageway from where I live (Swansea) to there. After driving on UK roads it really opened my eyes to just HOW bad the roads are here. It took a week to adjust when I came back for Christmas. Driving Waterford to Limerick - small towns, potholes, maniac drivers, tractors and not a safe place to overtake the whole length of the road. It is inexcusable with the amount of money in the economy that nothing has been done. I also fell the quality of Irish roads is a huge contributor to the number of accidents but this issue is swept under the carpet by the government who blame 'boy racers'.

Cantab.

wingnut wrote:

The Welsh economy has never been so hot but the roads are far superior to our roads. I was working in a small rural town and had dual carriageway from where I live (Swansea) to there. After driving on UK roads it really opened my eyes to just HOW bad the roads are here. It took a week to adjust when I came back for Christmas. Driving Waterford to Limerick - small towns, potholes, maniac drivers, tractors and not a safe place to overtake the whole length of the road. It is inexcusable with the amount of money in the economy that nothing has been done. I also fell the quality of Irish roads is a huge contributor to the number of accidents but this issue is swept under the carpet by the government who blame 'boy racers'.

Yep. I don't know how we're going to afford to pay for the infrastructural projects once the construction boom sizzles out.

m1ke

I'm assuming the infrastructure deficit goes back as when the state became independent. The protectionist policies of the 1930s,40s,50s badly depressed economic activity, the lack of any heavy industry, wreckless financial behaviour in the 1970s and 80s.

el diablo

Cantab. wrote:

Excuses, excuses. Road-building is not rocket science. We've squandered many an opportunity, and I don't buy anecdotal justification for the dismal failure of the Ireland, as a nation, to provide basic infrastructural projects.

yes, indeed...

justfortherecor

"anecdotal justification"

No, its fairly hard evidence actually. The government finances were effectively crippled up until 1995. Rapid economic growth simply made the deficit more acute.

The situation is changing but I think the improvements in the last 10years have been sufficient given the relatively short timespan.

Cantab.

justfortherecor wrote:

"anecdotal justification"

No, its fairly hard evidence actually. The government finances were effectively crippled up until 1995. Rapid economic growth simply made the deficit more acute.

The situation is changing but I think the improvements in the last 10years have been sufficient given the relatively short timespan.

We had the money to build a motorway to Cork/Galway/Limerick and Belfast years ago, it's just that we've chosen to spend money on a series of by-passes, ring-roads and roundabouts (built by local contractors), instead of having the political balls to slap compulsory purchase orders on farmers and lash in a motorway for the benefit of the economy that needs high-quality infrastructure to sustain itself. It's always excuses, excuses, with no accountability. I just do not buy this notion that we could somehow not afford to embark on ambitious infrastructure projects.

Seeing as this is an economics forum, well here's some economic fact: Slovenia's 2006 GDP was just $18,800. Ireland's GDP in 1995 was $18,400. Today, Ireland's GDP is $53,000, and god only knows what construction inflation has been since 1995. Also, Ireland's debt to GDP ratio was 27% at the end of 2005, and Slovenia's was 28% at the end of 2005 - very similar indeed. Now isn't it funny that Slovenia, in 2007, have better motorways than Ireland? How can they afford it, and we can't? My conclusion: political wimpery, a lackadaisical culture, corruption and local level ineptitude.

dRNk SAnTA

Look, in the past we were a poor country. The governments were useless and were borrowing just to pay the current accounts. There was no money for infrastructure in the late 70's and 80's. Also, we had a rapidly declining population. Spending money on bigger roads doesn't make as much sense when theres actually going to be less people to use them in the future.

Cantab wrote:

Now isn't it funny that Slovenia, in 2007, have better motorways than Ireland? How can they afford it, and we can't? My conclusion: political wimpery, a lackadaisical culture, corruption and local level ineptitude.

The boom period has really put a strain on our infrastructural deficit. I accept you're criticism of road building in the past, but you are wrong to talk as if nothing has changed.

As has been mentioned, it took the government a while for the government and the NRA to get the ball rolling. And there were big problems with the contracts. But that has been sorted and I think its fair to say Ireland is in the middle of a road building frenzy. The amount of projects that are in construction at the moment is very impressive. Also, we getting lots of projects completed early and on budget these days. I believe the cost/km to build new road here is half that of the UK.

They seem to be on course to have all the interurbans done by 2010. Considering where we are now i think that is very productive.

el diablo

dRNk SAnTA wrote:

Look, in the past we were a poor country. The governments were useless and were borrowing just to pay the current accounts. There was no money for infrastructure in the late 70's and 80's. Also, we had a rapidly declining population. Spending money on bigger roads doesn't make as much sense when theres actually going to be less people to use them in the future.



The boom period has really put a strain on our infrastructural deficit. I accept you're criticism of road building in the past, but you are wrong to talk as if nothing has changed.

As has been mentioned, it took the government a while for the government and the NRA to get the ball rolling. And there were big problems with the contracts. But that has been sorted and I think its fair to say Ireland is in the middle of a road building frenzy. The amount of projects that are in construction at the moment is very impressive. Also, we getting lots of projects completed early and on budget these days. I believe the cost/km to build new road here is half that of the UK.

They seem to be on course to have all the interurbans done by 2010. Considering where we are now i think that is very productive.

whatever you say, Martin. :rolleyes:

The_Minister

El Diablo, so far your contribution to this thread has been

yes, indeed...

whatever you say, Martin.:rolleyes:

Neither of these posts is in anyway useful. Please post more productively in future.

GreenHell

To be honest, I think the countries road are improving I can remember going from dublin to cork and it being pretty much hell. Now I can hit two motorways, and bypass cork city, but I can accept that it is still not good enough. Abbylex or however you spell that place is a disgrace.

Now living in Dublin, living in D6 and commute to work in citywest. When traffic gets bad its unreal, as a lot of you know I'm sure. A decent public transport system would sort out a lot of dublins problems, even a dedicated bus lane running all the way into town would be a huge improvement.

D'Peoples Voice

Cantab. wrote:

28% at the end of 2005 - very similar indeed. Now isn't it funny that Slovenia, in 2007, have better motorways than Ireland? How can they afford it, and we can't? My conclusion: political wimpery, a lackadaisical culture, corruption and local level ineptitude.

With all due respect, I don't think you're aware that of EVERY euro in tax raised in the country in 2006, it was spent as follows:

Health 28.99%

Education 19.95%

Social & Family Affairs 19.14%

Justice 5.72%

That leaves the remainder to be split across AGRICULTURE & FOOD, Arts, Sport & Tourism, Communications, Marine & Natural Resources, Community, Rural & Gaeltacht Affairs, DEFENCE, Enterprise, Trade & Employment, Environment, Heritage & Local Government, FINANCE, FOREIGN AFFAIRS, TAOISEACH'S department, TRANSPORT.

this is what the democratically elected government of ireland were told to do based on the issues raised by voters on the doorstep.
Perhaps in Slovenia, they spend less on Health or Education!
Imagine what the rate on Health will be in 2007 and beyond if nurses get their 10% increase and the consultants new contracts!

Sir_Ossis

blindjustice wrote:

Why is our infrastructure worse than many many Third world countries?
Have there been any comparative studies done ? Ireland compared with anywhere etc.

Its just bad for business when half the country is sitting on the M50 burning petrol and diesel and wasting important, precious time.

The main Dublin to Waterford road for example, two of our Cities, is full of bends, potholes and little villages nearer the Waterford end.


Why do we have such BAD INFRASTUCTURE?

The reason why infrastructure is poor is because it is your time being wasted. The time of people who work is worth much less than those who don't.

mountainyman

The_Minister wrote:

That's a bit of an overstatement. The only 3rd world countries that beat us are the ex-communist ones, whose works were funded mostly by the soviet union.

I was in Turkey recently and while certain aspects of the infrastructure there are worse than here like sewage the main roads, the aiports and the railways are better . I am also not sure what you mean by funded by the Soviet Union most of the ex communist countries were quite a bit richer than the Soviet Union and they certainly never built any roads in Slovenia.

That said not sure how Slovenia counts as Third World and they got away scot free in the war (despite precipitating it). Despite what people there might have told you they did not have to fight for their independence and the Communists DID build good roads all over the former Yugoslavia.

MM

mountainyman

m1ke wrote:

I'm assuming the infrastructure deficit goes back as when the state became independent. The protectionist policies of the 1930s,40s,50s badly depressed economic activity, the lack of any heavy industry, wreckless financial behaviour in the 1970s and 80s.

The infrastructure deficit in the South long predate independence. Figures showing Ireland as prosperous prior to independence are badly flawed as they are Island wide and as we all no Northern Ireland was massively more prosperous than the South at the turn of the century.

MM

doolox

The Dublin Waterford road is a complete disgrace. At least now you can get from Dublin to Athlone on all Motorway/Dual Carriageway without too much delay. Same for most of Dublin/Cork,Dublin/Belfast.
Slow drivers should be made to look in their rear view mirrors and pull in and let faster drivers get by. It's called courtesy and is never emphasised here.
How many times have you seen a driver dawdling along in the outside lane of a dual carriage way/ motorway?

LegacyUser

I heard an article on the radio last week about the reduction in Goverment revenue for the year and how Biffo is likely to conduct this years budget. Its was widely accepted that he is fully commited to all the current and planned Capital projects.