Planning Notice - Change of use creche to dwelling

Charlie-Bravo

I saw today, at the roundabout at The Fairways, 3 site notices for change of use of the designated creches in Charlesland Wood and Charlesland Court to residential.

2 of them are in the Wood and the other is in the Court. So, it seems they have these units, which are the same as the 3 bed end of terrace type units, and are unable to have a creche business put in them! Is it a case of childcare costs being beyond most people that people opt to stay at home and mind their kids? Or is it the fact that most are young couples who are yet to have kids and down the road when we need such services, they'll be few and far between. And we all know that if there is demand beyond availability - they'll jack up the price. Not good me thinks.

I know in a few years time I'll be looking at all the options when it comes to raring kids but should we let Zapi change the use of the designated creches to 3 bed houses?

I'd like to get everyone's opinion on this as I may submit a letter of observation to the County Council stating that changing the use may remove facilities from the area which may be needed in the not too distant future.

Thanks, Astro!

Hammiepeters

I'm with you. Stuff them. Just because something is not turning a massive profit from day one does not mean it should be scrapped.These creches were a selling point for the estate when everyone bought. I have no need for the creche myself but thats not the point. The property in question is on myhome.ie for 650k and methinks it isn't selling as quick as they would like. Let them leave facilities alone or improve them. They're being paid well enough.

mikedragon32

Totally agree astro. They're not thinking of the long term benefits for the people who bought in Charlesland at all.

hullaballoo

They really should have done that the other way around, non?

They should have started the buildings out as residences on a short lease of about 5 years after which they became crèches for the younglings that residents might be apt to have by about that time. (There is a problem that they might not be able to properly evict the tenants after the 5 years. Ireland has particularly funny laws about that due to a certain 800-year-long period for which some people retain an amount of distain.)

Either that, or they shouldn't have built them until about 5 years after the rest of the place. There are other crèches in Greystones that would fill the gap in the interim.

Charlie-Bravo

Yes Hulla, there are creches in Greystones...and they are brilliant creches so I hear. But in the long term, I think those people looking to have kids will have little choice of where to bring their kids for day care. It certainly would be difficult to have those units as residential first and then change them to creche facilities.

If we remove what has been planned for the area by professional planners, then we will be left with a problem. Maybe some of us might move out of the area in a few years time and it won't matter a damn then but I like Greystones and I would like to think I'll be around for a while yet!. Nevertheless, I feel little tweaks like this to the available/proposed facilities will result in facilities being bulked in elsewhere in unsuitable locations where you have to drive to. I would prefer to walk the kids rather than clogging up the already congested roads! And would like to think most would agree.

Thanks for your comments so far!

future_plans

I agree. The majority of people in Charlesland do not have any children yet. This will change in a few years. This change of use should be opposed. Creches are a requirement and child care is an issue of paramount importance. A modern sustainable community requires that these facilities are provided. I also welcome the news that St. Bridgets are planning a move to Charlesland. The provision of these facilities makes the area a far more desirable location for both people and businesses seeking homes.

anniec

Folks,

I am already aware of 2 purpose built creches in the park.

One at the beginning of Charlesland Park and the very back row at the top does anyone know what the property in the 2nd last row in the park is going to be another creche? It is an end terrace and adjoining 2 bed townhouse.

Anyone know how many creches they have to build in a new estate??? cause 2/3 seems a bit extreme plus with the current parking would love to know where the parents are going to park and drop off the kids.

Thanks

Charlie-Bravo

I'm going to bring this to the top of the forum just to get some more interest. The planning applications were submitted on 2 Jan 2007 and this would mean I have till Friday 9 Feb to submit an objection. Thing is: this is with the planning authority in Wicklow County Council and there are three applications in and requires €20 per objection. I'm going to send in my submission to each but was hoping that other people felt the same way and would object to at least one of them. I think any submission would be worth while.

@Future_plans: if you have the head for a good objection letter, would you mind taking a gander at my letter (once I've completed it!)?? I'm just trying to get the right angle on it by tieing in parts of the text in the dvelopment plan.

LMC

WOW! I live near the one in the court and it seems to be full of kids - by the noise anyway-happy little creatures! I always thought it was ridiculous having so many open so early in the development....totally agree with you, within the nxt five years they'll be loads of kids and no creches!

Fiachra2

astrofluff wrote:

Thing is: this is with the planning authority in Wicklow County Council and there are three applications in and requires €20 per objection. I'm going to send in my submission to each but was hoping that other people felt the same way and would object to at least one of them. I think any submission would be worth while.

QUOTE]

A suggestion. Contact local Councillors Tom Fortune and Deirdre De Burca and ask them to contact the County Manager. Also Try Liz McManus.
In fairness you could also contact George Jones and Derek Mitchell although I gather they are not flavour of the month in charlesland.

Also. If theouncil grant permission (and they probably will be inclined to)you can appeal to An Bord Pleanala but only if you object to the council in the first instance.

Charlie-Bravo

FYI, I rang the council yesterday to see if anyone else made any submissions in relation to these applications and it turns out all three applications were made invalid. So I checked the site notice on the creche/end of terrace unit across from me and it had a new site notice up, dated 26 January 2006. This means they are sticking the application right back in again. So, I shall have a little more time to get myself organised, ring the councillors, etc.

anniec

any ideas?:D

Eoin

These are all in the Park alone? There is a Montesorri in the Grove too.

Charlie-Bravo

Annie, Mike may have to merge this thread with the one I made in relation to Creches and planning permissions.

Don't be overly concerned about parking issues. These creches are designed so you only have to walk kids over from their home. These end of terrace creches dotted around the development will promote sustainable development. In reality, I know there will be some parents driving their kids to the creche. We need the creches, if not now, but definitely will do in the near future. The development is young...maybe someday you or your immediate neighbours may require this creche?

Eoin

astrofluff wrote:

Annie, Mike may have to merge this thread with the one I made in relation to Creches and planning permissions.

I may as well merge it seeing as I'm already subscribed to the thread...

anniec

astrofluff wrote:

Annie, Mike may have to merge this thread with the one I made in relation to Creches and planning permissions.

Don't be overly concerned about parking issues. These creches are designed so you only have to walk kids over from their home. These end of terrace creches dotted around the development will promote sustainable development. In reality, I know there will be some parents driving their kids to the creche. We need the creches, if not now, but definitely will do in the near future. The development is young...maybe someday you or your immediate neighbours may require this creche?

Astrofluff I note your point re parking! I was really wondering what the house was designed for as its bigger than the normal creches built in the estate. I just checked wicklow.ie and its a creche.

matt-dublin

As far as i know they weren't purposly built creches, but 1 house bought in order to provide a creche service, and later on as far as i know the same company bought another house. Its possible that the owner of the company has realised that they can sell the houses and make more money than what they could every make running the creches. (i know someone who knows the owner.)

what was the applicant name on the planning notice

matt-dublin

http://www.wicklow.ie/eplan/InternetEnquiry/rpt_ViewApplicDetails.asp?validFileNum=1&app_num_file=064886

here's the planning notice i believe

matt-dublin

ps, looks like we're getting a new take away restaurant in the charlesland centre :P

http://www.wicklow.ie/eplan/InternetEnquiry/rpt_ViewApplicDetails.asp?validFileNum=1&app_num_file=065067

Charlie-Bravo

matt-dublin wrote:

http://www.wicklow.ie/eplan/InternetEnquiry/rpt_ViewApplicDetails.asp?validFileNum=1&app_num_file=064886

here's the planning notice i believe

That file was made incomplete application. If you find one that has been granted please let me know.

The take-away was granted permission, this was dicussed on the forums here, the objector brought it to an bord pleananla, an bord pleanala granted permission.

Matt - the planning for the whole development include for creche units in The Wood, The Court, The Grove, and The Park. I can understand people wanting to make lots of money by selling it as a residential house but if you remove these facilities from the development we won't have them on our doorstep. Think about if you decided to sell your own home...a prospective buyer might be encourage to buy because of such facilities being on your doorstep! And a lot of people who have bought so far did because they were informed there would be such facilities available.

anniec

all of the creches in the park are purpose built creches with features such as lower thread on stairs for the little ones and even have 2 loos downstairs! check out my home creche for sale in the beginning of the park for details of the facilities. I believe creches have to be built with extra features for fire reg etc you may spot the extra fire doors or alarms lights etc

future_plans

While out and about last night I noticed that there were planning application notices for 3 different properties in Charlesland by Zapi for change of use from creche to dwelling. I did not note the exact addresses but there were three.

I presume that these creches were conditions for the initial planning for the development being granted... I think this affects all residents, especially those who have children and those who are planning to have children. Even for those who do not plan to have any and see themselves as short-term residents, removal of these creche facilities can only have a long-term detrimental affect on your property price.

Charlie-Bravo

Hi guys,

If you feel in any way the change of use of these units is wrong for Charlesland, each of the three applications must receive a submission/objection by Wednesday 14 March 2007.

The planning numbers are:

07/212; 69 Charlesland Wood Click here
07/224; 158 Charlesland Wood Click here
07/225; 196 Charlesland Court Click here


It is very important that the developers are not allowed to remove vital community facilities for such a young development. At the moment, we are short about 60 childcare spaces for the size of the development.

Puroga's business is mainly through children in residence outside of Charlesland; which may indicate a good creche facility but this means less spaces available to the Charleslandians! There is a huge waiting list for this creche.

Removing these creche units will create a further shortfall in the very near future. This is about maintaining a sustainable development so your help is needed.

Thanks for reading.

anniec

I just checked wicklow.ie and planning permission has been refused!:D

Charlie-Bravo

Yep,

All three have been refused. They are unable to remove the childcare provisions because there is a lack of such in the area already.

Marcais

astrofluff wrote:

Yep,

All three have been refused. They are unable to remove the childcare provisions because there is a lack of such in the area already.

Well done.

There have to be X amount of places per residential unit as per the planning permission, good to see this has been enforced. (Although people living next to creches may not be as pleased!)

MuffinsDa

astrofluff wrote:

Yep,

All three have been refused. They are unable to remove the childcare provisions because there is a lack of such in the area already.

Brilliant. Great achievement for Charlesland! Well done!

kmick

Watch out just becuase they have been refused they will try again. Sounds like they will not be able to get it through but these guys are sneaky and will go to An Bord Pleanala and such. Keep vigilant.

Charlie-Bravo

You can only make your voice heard to An Bord Pleanala if you made an observation in the first place to Wicklow Planning Dept.

Luckily someone did!

anniec

I see Zapi went to an bord pleanala decision was due yesterday!!!

http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/223066.htm

Anyone heard anything?

Charlie-Bravo

Decision not due till the 27th September....seems they have pushed it back a month (most probably due to the work load they have already - I blame the harbour appeal; that proposal seems to have clogged up their system - only kidding...hire more staff and they'll meet the demands!)

Charlie-Bravo

astrofluff wrote: »

Hi guys,

If you feel in any way the change of use of these units is wrong for Charlesland, each of the three applications must receive a submission/objection by Wednesday 14 March 2007.

The planning numbers are:

07/212; 69 Charlesland Wood Click here
07/224; 158 Charlesland Wood Click here
07/225; 196 Charlesland Court Click here


It is very important that the developers are not allowed to remove vital community facilities for such a young development. At the moment, we are short about 60 childcare spaces for the size of the development.

Puroga's business is mainly through children in residence outside of Charlesland; which may indicate a good creche facility but this means less spaces available to the Charleslandians! There is a huge waiting list for this creche.

Removing these creche units will create a further shortfall in the very near future. This is about maintaining a sustainable development so your help is needed.

Thanks for reading.

Results are in....

Planning refused for all 3. The long and short of it is that the Planning Inspector looked at the current development and recommended the units be granted permission as there was no requirement for the units but the BOARD themselves upheld their own inspector and refused it based on the Planning Authority's original refusal. For those of you who have kids or are planning have kids, it's worth reading the inspector's report and then the direction by the board to get a gist of what's available locally by way of childcare.

Regards, A!

mikedragon32

FWIW, this could be a disastrous outcome.

I had a conversation recently with some people who are of the opinion that setting up creches in units as small as these three houses would be prohibitively expensive and therefore there is no interest in the units as creches.

This, in turn, means that if the developer is unable to offload these units, then they will retain an interest in the Wood, thereby obliterating any hope we might have had for WCC to take over the estate in the near future.

IF this is the case, then despite the best intentions of all who objected (and I can fully understand why), have we (collectively) shot ourselves in the foot?

Those who know me and my posting history here will know I've never been a fan of the developers or their motives, however, the question is one I feel needs to be asked.

lostexpectation

I don't see how you can think making houses into creches is good idea in the long or short term, are there not retail units around into creches with a few off road parking spaces?

mikedragon32

lostexpectation wrote: »

I don't see how you can think making houses into creches is good idea in the long or short term, are there not retail units around into creches with a few off road parking spaces?

The problem is that it was part of the planning permission for the development that a number of houses would be given over for use as creches.

That's not really the developers' fault. The local authority should have stipulated purpose built creches like Puroga or the one up in the Court.

loyatemu

possibly someone could rent all 3 and use them for different levels of childcare.

The Ch Grove montessori (single 3 bed unit) was closed for a while because they moved to a larger unit in Ch Park, but they are now back using the original unit for after-school care while the Montessori and Creche are still in the Park.

This is actually a good model as the requirements for afterschool care and montessori are very different and it not ideal to have them in the same building (though they presumably lose some flexibility in staffing, catering etc).

Anyhow, there are plenty of people running childcare in non-purpose built 3-bed semis around the country - I'm sure there will eventually be a demand for these units if they are priced realistically. Bigger is not always better.

Charlie-Bravo

mikedragon32 wrote: »

I had a conversation recently with some people who are of the opinion that setting up creches in units as small as these three houses would be prohibitively expensive and therefore there is no interest in the units as creches.

Or perhaps the developer could reduce the price of the units down from €650,000 to make it more financially viable? Dare the developer be done out of a few quid!

I understand your point Mike but it bothers me that childcare facility provisions are looking to be removed without other facilities being put in place elsewhere locally. There are no creche spaces left in Charlesland for under 2 year olds. As the planning refusal states, its is pre-mature to remove such facilities as the demographic profile is continually changing...yours truely is an example of this. And most would agree that if there is an increase in children on the estate, it wouldn't be from moving in from outside it would be because we are getting down to business!;)

woodcutter

WCC are not anxiously awaiting the step down of the Developer in order that they can rush in and take the estate in charge. There are a myriad of complex issues which will have to be dealt with first, before WCC will even begin to consider a hand over, not least of these is the taking in charge of the spine road.

The developer could indeed take steps to make the units more attractive. The Developer could make the generous gesture of fitting out the units and handing them over to the Management Company in order to provide the members with an additional service within the estate.

The Developer has on deposit, a sizeable bond with WCC, the value of which is a multiple of any potential profit to be made on the sale of the 3 units. This bond can not be returned to the developer if the plannning requirements for the development have not been fully complied with, i.e. provision of specified childcare facilities.

MyPerfectCousin

woodcutter wrote: »

There are a myriad of complex issues which will have to be dealt with first, before WCC will even begin to consider a hand over, not least of these is the taking in charge of the spine road.

Off-topic diversion:

What are people talking about when they refer to the famous "spine road"? Is it the road stretching from Mill Road in Greystones to the Kilcoole Road in "Delgany"/Eden Gate? Or, is it the road that runs up and down the main green in Charlesland on both sides?

I've always thought it was the latter, but I've seen some references that sound more like the former (perhaps including the one above).

Why can't roads be given names in this country?

future_plans

Its the later Perfect...

mikedragon32

MyPerfectCousin wrote: »

Off-topic diversion:

What are people talking about when they refer to the famous "spine road"? Is it the road stretching from Mill Road in Greystones to the Kilcoole Road in "Delgany"/Eden Gate? Or, is it the road that runs up and down the main green in Charlesland on both sides?

I've always thought it was the latter, but I've seen some references that sound more like the former (perhaps including the one above).

Why can't roads be given names in this country?

The road from Mill Road to N11 (and Eden Gate) is known as the southern access road (or SAR).

MyPerfectCousin

mikedragon32 wrote: »

The road from Mill Road to N11 (and Eden Gate) is known as the southern access road (or SAR).

As is a similar road in Bray from Kilruddery to the N11.

I've only ever heard them referred to that way in the local papers, and there's no signs labelling them as such, so it will continue to be a mystery to visitors and some residents, especially new ones.

mikedragon32

MyPerfectCousin wrote: »

As is a similar road in Bray from Kilruddery to the N11.

I've only ever heard them referred to that way in the local papers, and there's no signs labelling them as such, so it will continue to be a mystery to visitors and some residents, especially new ones.

The road from Kilruddery to the N11 is the Southern Cross Road.