3 IPC Satellite Hands - Comments please!!

BigCityBanker

3 hands from last nights IPC Satellite that I want to ask about.

Hand 1.

Blinds are 150/300. Im SB and complete after a few limpers with Ad7d. I flop the nuts and check. It goes around to the Button who bets 750, I do my worst acting and call, everyone else folds. Turn As. I know this is a terrible card but feel I I cant check call on 2 streets and decide to lead out for 700. I feel I played this hand pretty badly. Can somebody tell me how badly I played it?

Should I lead the flop? Nobody expects me to bet the Nuts?
As played was I right to lead the turn? Im kinda telling my opponent ive called with min Ad and he knows he is drawing pretty much dead as his flushdraw is now useless. I regret not leading the flop - am i correct in my thinking?

Hand 2.

One orbit later blinds are still 150/300 and im in the SB and after a few limpers I complete with 4h5h. I flop a 5 high flush. I lead for 2k, crazy russian guy and one other guy calls. Turn brings 5s - I have c.9k behind, pot is c.8k. Whats my action?

Hand 3.

One orbit later blinds are 200/400. Im on the button and after a few limpers I limp with 8s9s (soooooooooooted connecters). Flop comes 8 8 4r. Checked around to me and I bet 2k (I think it was 2k but may well have been 3k). Crazy Russian guy in the SB goes all in. Im sorry you said what? Callin or Allin? Your all in? I have c.12k behind and he just covers me. As is evident from the other thread I called and he had 6 6. I felt a call was right as this guy had been doing some serious betting with probably nothing and I reckon had just pushed PPP Special off a hand with a 5k bet on the river. Was I right to call? Is there any justification for not calling? Even if I went broke there I feel my call was a good one given this guys table image. Comments??

ianmc38

Hand 1 I prefer to lead the flop.

Hand 2 I shove

Hand 3 is possibly the easiest decision you'll ever make at a poker table apart from folding AA from the BB in the 1st hand of the World Series after everyone else on the table has gone all-in.

Lafortezza

BigCityBanker wrote:

Hand 1.
Blinds are 150/300. Im SB and complete after a few limpers with Ad7d. I flop the nuts and check. It goes around to the Button who bets 750, I do my worst acting and call, everyone else folds. Turn As. I know this is a terrible card but feel I I cant check call on 2 streets and decide to lead out for 700. I feel I played this hand pretty badly. Can somebody tell me how badly I played it?
Should I lead the flop? Nobody expects me to bet the Nuts?
As played was I right to lead the turn? Im kinda telling my opponent ive called with min Ad and he knows he is drawing pretty much dead as his flushdraw is now useless. I regret not leading the flop - am i correct in my thinking?

What were stacks at the start of this hand? How had the table been playing?
If the table had been aggro, then I like leading, you might get raised by someone with a pair+flush draw or two pair or something. If you flop the nut flush you're only really going to get alot of action by someone with a strong hand, K-flush draw, set, two pair. They might not bet a flop with 3 diamonds but they will call, so you should do your own betting in this situation.

Hand 2.
One orbit later blinds are still 150/300 and im in the SB and after a few limpers I complete with 4h5h. I flop a 5 high flush. I lead for 2k, crazy russian guy and one other guy calls. Turn brings 5s - I have c.9k behind, pot is c.8k. Whats my action?

What is the full board? Are the 2 callers generally good/bad? passive or aggro?
I'd probably push here unless I though one of them was very strong and possibly slowplaying.

Hand 3.
One orbit later blinds are 200/400. Im on the button and after a few limpers I limp with 8s9s (soooooooooooted connecters). Flop comes 8 8 4r. Checked around to me and I bet 2k (I think it was 2k but may well have been 3k). Crazy Russian guy in the SB goes all in. Im sorry you said what? Callin or Allin? Your all in? I have c.12k behind and he just covers me. As is evident from the other thread I called and he had 6 6. I felt a call was right as this guy had been doing some serious betting with probably nothing and I reckon had just pushed PPP Special off a hand with a 5k bet on the river. Was I right to call? Is there any justification for not calling? Even if I went broke there I feel my call was a good one given this guys table image. Comments??

Tricky one, mostly depends on your reads so if you think he's living up to his crazy image then call. The fact that you're on the button and everyone has checked to you means that your hand range for betting this flop is reasonably wide. Therefore he can c/r all-in knowing you can only call if you have an 8. So from his point of view it's probably a decent risk to take.

Ollieboy

Hand 1

There's loads of ways of playing this, but in a mult-way pot you want action and your pretty sure someone must have connect with that flop, I would check and let someone else create the action and flat call, pretty quickly to make it look like I'm flushing to the Ace high flush.

On the turn, he'll have to decide to try and win the hand there or slow down, he'll be pretty sure that your drawing or he's behind, but for him to win the pot he'll have to fire again, again depending on how this pot commits him, you would call or raise, if flat calling, your hoping for a diamond or a blank, in both situations its a extraction bet, if non-diamond you can pretend you miss your flush etc. If he checks the turn, extraction bet would be only option on river.

Hand 2

A bit tougher, I dont like to commit my stack without a better flush and with so many poor players around playing suit cards as limpers in any position I would be careful here. It really depends on what you put them on, flushes or big cards with pairs etc. I would be tempted to bet 1/2 the pot here, it commits you, but also gives you some option to fold him someone comes over the top, also it tells the other players that you have a big hand. It will also depend on your table image etc, would really need more info here.

Hand 3

instant call for me, I would have him on a overpair here and sometimes a underpair.

WH BONNEY

ianmc38 wrote:

Hand 2 I shove

Ian,
As the boards champion and a repected player would you please explain your rational behind this thinking.

Regards - WH

WP, BCB, GG

ianmc38

Ollieboy wrote:

I would be tempted to bet 1/2 the pot here, it commits you, but also gives you some option to fold him someone comes over the top, also it tells the other players that you have a big hand. It will also depend on your table image etc, would really need more info here.

Why are you always trying to tell people the strength of your hand? I remember a similar train of thought in a thread from the GJP game involving Paul Higgins.

To WH, because I figure I have the best hand. I'm not going to bet half my stack and fold if someone comes over the top. I'm not going to check and give one of the players behind me a free card. With the limited information available I figure i've the best hand. If BCB had said "crazy Russian guy and really tight nut peddling nit" then I might check fold. Obviously I wouldn't ever be in this spot without a read on the players involved and the most appropriate action would of course be player and read dependant.

Ollieboy

ianmc38 wrote:

Why are you always trying to tell people the strength of your hand? I remember a similar train of thought in a thread from the GJP game involving Paul Higgins.

To WH, because I figure I have the best hand. I'm not going to bet half my stack and fold if someone comes over the top. I'm not going to check and give one of the players behind me a free card. With the limited information available I figure i've the best hand. If BCB had said "crazy Russian guy and really tight nut peddling nit" then I might check fold. Obviously I wouldn't ever be in this spot without a read on the players involved and the most appropriate action would of course be player and read dependant.

The reason I want someone to know or think I've a strong hand is to stop them from calling at this stage and outdrawing me, he has outs if he's chasing the higher flush for example in this hand and I've got none for example. So pushing is fine, if you dont think he as the higher flush, but if you bet 1/2 the pot which is about 1/2 your stack, he'll only raise you with a better hand, letting you get away from it. How you can figure you have the best hand with a 5 high flush after getting two callers on the flop is beyond me. You wouldn't really want to see a river card in this hand, but I defo dont want to go bust with 5 high flush.

but with a lack of information in relation to there stack sizes and reads on the players involved, I would have to be pretty sure to push here, I would expect someone with the nut flush to be slow playing.

ianmc38

Ollieboy wrote:

The reason I want someone to know or think I've a strong hand is to stop them from calling at this stage and outdrawing me, he has outs if he's chasing the higher flush for example in this hand and I've got none for example. So pushing is fine, if you dont think he as the higher flush, but if you bet 1/2 the pot which is about 1/2 your stack, he'll only raise you with a better hand, letting you get away from it. How you can figure you have the best hand with a 5 high flush after getting two callers on the flop is beyond me. You wouldn't really want to see a river card in this hand, but I defo dont want to go bust with 5 high flush.

but with a lack of information in relation to there stack sizes and reads on the players involved, I would have to be pretty sure to push here, I would expect someone with the nut flush to be slow playing.

I was just curious as to your thinking. I certainly wasn't saying it was incorrect, just interested in your point of view. Personally I'd rather my opponents thought I had a really weak hand and called me with 2 pair or the lone ace of hearts!

cardshark202

Hand 1: Lead flop.

Hand 2: Easy shove

Hand 3: Super easy call.

end thread.

careca

Am I wrong here, but if you called with 4h5h and flopped a 'five high flush', would that not be a straight flush in hand 2 ?

jimbling

careca wrote:

Am I wrong here, but if you called with 4h5h and flopped a 'five high flush', would that not be a straight flush in hand 2 ?

guess your after the pedantic pat award for 2007

Ollieboy

ianmc38 wrote:

I was just curious as to your thinking. I certainly wasn't saying it was incorrect, just interested in your point of view. Personally I'd rather my opponents thought I had a really weak hand and called me with 2 pair or the lone ace of hearts!

Sorry Ian, I didnt take it that way. I would rather not get call here and take the pot down, but thats me and I know someone is going to tell me that I'm a percentage ahead etc and that the correct play is to get called by 2 pairs or ace high etc, but I think your only getting called by a better hand or a strong drawing hand. Just my view, but I wouldn't want to be in this hand unless I had very good reads on both of these players.

BigCityBanker

Ok so - I know I played hand 1 poorly and may well have got better paid had I taken different action.

Hand 2, as pointed out was read dependent, I was happy that I had the best hand on the turn and I jammed it all in - the Russian (I feel like Tony G here talking about a Russian in a game) agonised over folding top pair and no flush draw, the other player made a standard fold with a good flush draw. Ollie, I like your line on leading half stack on the turn but Im not so sure there was enough understanding of what leading half my stack meant at the table to do this - rather a "ah well its cheaper than if he pushed all in so I call kinda mentality". I think I would reserve leading half my stack for a game where I would be certain the meaning of the action would truly be appreciated, I may be wrong here - it may well have been fully appreciated. I was content with jamming it all in as I obviously didnt want a heart on the river to break my heart!!

A little bit of me after the hand was eating me up saying I had MUTBS - am I being harsh on myself here or am i correct to end the hand here on every occasion if possible?

Hand 3 - I think the Russian pushed as he was pissed with having folded TP an orbit earlier - I didnt show my flush and I gave a little bit of speech after to tilt him a little.

ianmc38

If you bet 4000 on the turn and the Russian calls, the other guy is now getting 4-1 to draw to the nut flush.

spectre

ianmc38 wrote:

If you bet 4000 on the turn and the Russian calls, the other guy is now getting 4-1 to draw to the nut flush.

If he's drawing to the nut flush, he is a 37-7 dog to make it, he's not getting the pot odds. However unless you can fold a rivered heart he has the implied odds to just about break even.

Pushing is best as anything over half pot commits us and anything less is not enough. I'm certainly not worrying about better flushes being out there, if that happens it's just a cold deck

Ollieboy

ianmc38 wrote:

If you bet 4000 on the turn and the Russian calls, the other guy is now getting 4-1 to draw to the nut flush.

He would be getting the correct odds plus implied odds, but would you want to go bust on drawing to a flush on the river, I would never make that call.

Banker the push is correct if you dont want a call, which is exactly the purpose of 1/2 stack or full push, we dont want to be outdrawn here.

BigCityBanker

spectre wrote:

I'm certainly not worrying about better flushes being out there, if that happens it's just a cold deck

.

Bobby - u goin up to play a few satellites for the Aussie Millions?

ianmc38

spectre wrote:

If he's drawing to the nut flush, he is a 37-7 dog to make it, he's not getting the pot odds. However unless you can fold a rivered heart he has the implied odds to just about break even.

Pushing is best as anything over half pot commits us and anything less is not enough. I'm certainly not worrying about better flushes being out there, if that happens it's just a cold deck

Is it not 37-9 seeing as we're taking the odds from his point of view? Anyhoo your second point is exactly what i was alluding to.

Norwich Fan Rob

always lead when u flop the nut flush, on boards that are all one suit, a lot of cards can come on the turn to kill your action............if villian has 2 pair or a set, u dont get paid if a 4th suited card comes on the turn...........if villian has the bare K of the suit, he may well call on the flop but wont bet often unless he makes his flush............if no one has anything, then u wont get paid either way............its better to build the pot when someone may think they are ahead or have outs, 2 many cards can come to kill action on 1 suited boards, therefore lead, if villian has flopped smaller flush, its all going in anyway.

Hand 2, i lead for a large bet here, to protect my hand, when board pairs, my hand is now marginal, and i prefer to check call, i dont want to pot commit myself with a now marginal hand.

Hand 3, you are almost never behind here.

Ollieboy

Norwich Fan Rob wrote:

always lead when u flop the nut flush, on boards that are all one suit, a lot of cards can come on the turn to kill your action............if villian has 2 pair or a set, u dont get paid if a 4th suited card comes on the turn...........if villian has the bare K of the suit, he may well call on the flop but wont bet often unless he makes his flush............if no one has anything, then u wont get paid either way............its better to build the pot when someone may think they are ahead or have outs, 2 many cards can come to kill action on 1 suited boards, therefore lead, if villian has flopped smaller flush, its all going in anyway.

QUOTE]

Normally would agree with this Rob, but its a 5 way pot, somebody else must have connect with this flop and you can let them lead and disguise your hand a bit, or reraise to build a bigger pot with them drawing etc

But you can play this hand many ways, you just need to find a lunatic and get him to pay you.

spectre

ianmc38 wrote:

Is it not 37-9 seeing as we're taking the odds from his point of view?

sure he thinks he's getting 37-9 but we know better, therefore we should be sizing our bet according to the more accurate info.