Stop n Go bluff

sikes

Don't have the HH to hand, but it went something like this.

blinds 2k/4k

Hero (BB) 33k
Villain (CO) 120k

Folded to CO raises to 12k.

2 folds.

I call with AA.

Flop comes J93r. I push.

I know the villain is a good player and a big winner. I have stop n goed once in the last level not against villain though.

Anyone think this is better than a RAI preflop? What do you think he will call with?

Forgot to add that villain has been relatively quite since doubleing up about 3 orbits ago

BigCityBanker

If I am reading it correctly you have 33k? I think hecalls you preflop if u jamm it all in and i think he calls you post flop if you jamm it all in. You have 8bb I think i prefer to jamm it all in preflop as at least he may get away from his hand and you have added a nice % to your stack. It is unlikely he drops it tho.

Also - what was that album you gave me friday night in the SE? Its playing in my car and all i can seem to remember is some song about ppl crying about spilled milk

sikes

i gave you an album?! might be travega or starturtle.

I think he folds a lot to a RAI preflop. But not sure if a push on the flop gets a call from anything he would have otherwise layed down. apart from Jx.

when i get called this is also uber good for my meta game....i think

cardshark202

If he folds to an all in preflop he is an idiot. If you flat called preflop, you should check this flop in general. If he is a good player and a big winner, he will instacall your preflop shove.

BigCityBanker

sikes wrote:

when i get called this is also uber good for my meta game....i think

yeah, you see this is where you lost me.

Ollieboy

In this situation I would be looking to get as many chips as possible of him and hope my aces hold up, I would be planning for this hand to go to the river. If he's on a steal attempt, which is very possible, you've given him no chance of pushing you off the hand, I would have check the flop and depending on his read of you, he should bet, I know this stinks, but I would also be willing to check the turn here to get paid. He would have to call here with any pair or top pair on the board, he could put you on a overpair and drop top pair here due to the s & g play. I defo would have played this hand a lot slower, as for preflop, I think the call is fine as you want to get paid and not scare a steal attempt away.

sikes

ok i may have got the stack sizes wrong, I was pushing ~the pot on the flop.

i think calling preflop and checking the flop, is a very strong line to take but i see where your coming from Ollie.

If i have his range on 77+ A10+, KJ+ what does he drop on the flop that calls me preflop is basically what Im wondering?

ntlbell

BigCityBanker wrote:

yeah, you see this is where you lost me.

It was the "uber" part that got you wasn't it.

What he meant was SUPERCOOL!

cardshark202

You should really shove preflop, his calling range is wider then imo.

ntlbell

cardshark202 wrote:

You should really shove preflop, his calling range is wider then imo.

.

Hectorjelly

check that flop!

jimbling

push pre-flop.

the reason a stop and go works is because a player will NOT call a larger % of the time. His range dissipates due to the flop, so he will find a fold much easier post-flop.
You are losing value by playing a stop and go. You're trying to be too tricky and it will backfire more often than not.

sikes

against 99% players, i wouldnt do this, however this player is prob the one of the few online players who i know through is posts on 2+2. This hand reeks of a stop n go, so i think he will call lightly on the flop.

I also think a call/check would prob be the worst thing i could do in this hand, considering all i have been doing is pushing recently

jbravado

Ot-A few guys I know petty well are in Travega-what u think of the albumn?

Also rrai pre.......

jimbling

sikes wrote:

against 99% players, i wouldnt do this, however this player is prob the one of the few online players who i know through is posts on 2+2. This hand reeks of a stop n go, so i think he will call lightly on the flop.

fair enough, but that analysis should be brought to the table when asking if someone thinks it is better to rai preflop

even with that info.... it is very hard for a player to call you if he has completely missed the flop. Again, thats why the stop and go works so well. Just because someone understands the concept doesn't mean they can do anything about it.
But I take you're point that perhaps a hand like JQ JK would call your post flop all in rather than your preflop all in.


Major point though:

sikes wrote:

I also think a call/check would prob be the worst thing i could do in this hand, considering all i have been doing is pushing recently

with this info, you should absolutely have pushed preflop.

ntlbell

sikes wrote:

against 99% players, i wouldnt do this, however this player is prob the one of the few online players who i know through is posts on 2+2. This hand reeks of a stop n go, so i think he will call lightly on the flop.

I also think a call/check would prob be the worst thing i could do in this hand, considering all i have been doing is pushing recently

If you have been pushing a lot then you're flat call will look very suspcious.

more the reason to get it in there pre

Ollieboy

sikes wrote:

ok i may have got the stack sizes wrong, I was pushing ~the pot on the flop.

i think calling preflop and checking the flop, is a very strong line to take but i see where your coming from Ollie.

If i have his range on 77+ A10+, KJ+ what does he drop on the flop that calls me preflop is basically what Im wondering?

I think he'll call with any pair from 77 upwards and also any J, if you've been pushing a bit, he might call with AK, but your play here indicates you dont want a call, which is what your trying to say to him here, but for him to call he as to have something, but I think the range preflop is a lot bigger. Your a medium to shortstack, ideal stack to attack preflop with a standard raise from the cut-off.

I've made this call with AQ, for the simple reason, if he had a pair preflop, he would have push, but the board came down 66 10 and I was 90% sure he had none of that, so his push was in hope I would drop to big cards, so I can see your reason, but I was raising from early to mid position.

ntlbell

Ollieboy wrote:

I've made this call with AQ, for the simple reason, if he had a pair preflop, he would have push, but the board came down 66 10 and I was 90% sure he had none of that, so his push was in hope I would drop to big cards, so I can see your reason, but I was raising from early to mid position.

Was that against Reggie at a VN game?

Rnger

This looks like the best line to get him to fold. If you have been pushing a lot then you're flat call will look very suspcious, more the reason to get it in there preflop

CRAI on the flop as played

sikes

Rnger wrote:

This looks like the best line to get him to fold. If you have been pushing a lot then you're flat call will look very suspcious, more the reason to get it in there preflop

CRAI on the flop as played

Thats the idea behind a stop n go to make him fold. Hence the idea of a stop n go bluff.

CRAI on the flop is horrible for me as i have already mentioned.

Basically all i wanted to know was how much of his calling range preflop do i lose by opening pushing the flop.

I agree Ollie, i think his range preflop is quite wide, however i dont think he is calling a push with less than 77+ A8+, KJ+.

Hectorjelly

sikes wrote:

Thats the idea behind a stop n go to make him fold. Hence the idea of a stop n go bluff.

CRAI on the flop is horrible for me as i have already mentioned.

Basically all i wanted to know was how much of his calling range preflop do i lose by opening pushing the flop.

I agree Ollie, i think his range preflop is quite wide, however i dont think he is calling a push with less than 77+ A8+, KJ+.

he is getting better than 2:1 preflop so should really call your all in with anything he raised with. And I dont agree that checking the flop is bad, giving a free card is fine and there are a lot of hands which he simply cannot call all inon the flop with, but may push if you check. The reason stop and goes are often effective is precisely why you played this hand badly.

I really dont like how you played this hand, the only good thing about it is you give your stop and goes a lot of credibility if this gets showndown. Hardly worth it though

BigDragon

If your goal is to get him to fold I think that a RRAI pre is best (with your holding).

I think all moves have merit but all have different goals.

Your move here is definately goal orientated. For me it's a double up so I check the flop here every time (based on stacks).

Ollieboy

ntlbell wrote:

Was that against Reggie at a VN game?

good memory

sikes

Obviously the only real value is my sngs getting more crediibilty. I had to offset that against the hands i lose.

Picking off sngs is very profitable and something that all top players are continually trying to do. I dont think its as bad as you(HJ) make out.

Hectorjelly

Its hard to play aces badly when you have 8 blinds, but you took the line that makes it hardest to get paid off. Thats what you should be worrying about, not trying to give your sngs more credibility.

bops

You just push Pre-Flop and get called with any 2

There is no reason in the world to get tricky here.

(ignore tag line for this one)

sikes

Hectorjelly wrote:

Its hard to play aces badly when you have 8 blinds, but you took the line that makes it hardest to get paid off. Thats what you should be worrying about, not trying to give your sngs more credibility.

well when you put it like that!

It was a play i thought had some merit. In a slow structure live tourney, it might have more merit that online.

he called with AK in the end, obvioulsy he wasnt letting it go preflop to a push either. that was the ideal result, but if he has a wide range, hes more likely to fold on the flop than with a tight range.

Goodluck2me

this strategy also lets people take away AA and prob KK from your pushing preflop range, so unless you plan to Stop n Go more often i dont think it is worth the loss in value. he will fold to your stop and go here often and will call you RRAIPF more often.

ollyk1

I personally don't like how you played this hand Sikes but I'm unclear on the merits of the play from your point of view or what you were trying to achieve in terms of your image etc. so maybe I'm misjudging it a bit.

Is your question simply that you feel this hand will go to showdown on the flop and that a "tricky" image garnered from this hand will give your sng bluffs more merit later in the game (should you survive) and that's worth sacrificing a potential full double through for?

If that's your question I think you are giving up way to much for this possible image building for a number of reasons.

1. You are sacrificing a good chance to get a full double through with this play.
2. You are too short a stack and the structure is probably too steep to really get any benefits in any event.
3. You are reducing the effectiveness of open pushing or reraising which at this stage of the tournie is so vital to really making decent money.
4. This is an internet tournie. Image means a lot less in any event.

I think you are a tricky non standard player but most times the straightforward play is clearly superior and whether its reraising all-in preflop or CRAI on the flop in this hand I don't think there are too many arguments about the benefits of how you played this hand that make this a good move in the long run imho. I'd love to hear your arguments spelled out a little more clearly thoguh just in case I missed something.

fuzzbox

ehhh, why dont you just check and let him shove?

RoundTower

sikes wrote:

when i get called this is also uber good for my meta game....i think

yes in theory you should sometimes do this, i.e. if you never have a good hand here you become easy to read. But in practice it would be much more profitable to check the flop, everyone else has explained why. It's not as if you're going to play with him 1000 hands a day.

RoundTower

btw I would insta call you with AQ here, I'm sure villain would too. But he might fold 46o.

sikes

cheers for the replies lads

Olly, the only reason for doing this was for my image and getting respect for my sngs! By posting here, I was trying to find out how much value i lose by playing the hand this way. Obviously there is no need to do this in shortstacked online tourney, however perhaps in a game where im going to be at the same table for 10+ hours, it has some mertis.

Basically I know this is the worst line for my short term EV, however its very difficult to measure the long term EV of such a play. Its like taking a -EV situation early in a tournament in order to create your image which will result in long term +EV

fuzzbox

sikes wrote:

against 99% players, i wouldnt do this, however this player is prob the one of the few online players who i know through is posts on 2+2. This hand reeks of a stop n go, so i think he will call lightly on the flop.

I guarantee you that he will push WAY more hands than he will call with.

robinlacey

yeah i think this is really really bad,either push preflop or check the flop

even if you are going to play poker with this guy for the rest of your life,i still don't think your metagame reasons make up for the loss in ev of risking him folding when you have AA with 88bbs,especially since as goodluck mentioned this gives your preflop resteals much less credibility

no offense but i think this might be one of the worst cases of fancy play syndrome i've ever seen,and i'm a long time sufferer myself!

sikes

no offense taken, this was what i was expecting!

I have a few more hands that suffer from fancy play syndrome, will find the HH for them first tho.

If Im playing with him for the rest of my life, i think the loss of immediate ev will be offset by the doubt created. After all its competely stupid.

kpnuts

agree 100% with HJ's analysis, you seem to be going out of your way here to plot the very best way to help your opponent AVOID doubling you up!

Just to add, one of the most important things i have learnt from playing online is, there's almost no point setting up an image in any game, be it cash or tournament poker.

Unless you're playing the very best players, most onliners seem to me to pay scant attention to what other people are doing. They're far too busy MSNing, netsurfing, watching the darts on TV, keeping an eye on their delinquent children, assuring their wife that they're not losing too much etc to pay too much attention to how anyone else is playing.

Keep It Simple Sikes!

sikes

cheers kp!