mtt what do people think are the key skills?

luckylucky

Cash Games, be it Omaha or Hold'Em, Limit, pot or No Limit i do fine.
Sngs I do fine.

Mtts however I am crap. My major failings are lack of patience and fatigue once it gets to the 2nd or 3rd hour, when it comes to cash games I'm used to breaking every hour or so.

Patience and the ability to shift gears at key junctures are 2 key skills that come to mind, any other key skills anyone can think of, particularly skills other than normal hold em play that you get in cash games. Perhaps image building - I notice several players particularly in rebuys play donkishly at early levels but then tighten up later on, but to me some of this play seems more costly than it's worth.

Killme00

Patience and Control of your agression are key to doing well in MTTs. I like to set myself little targets in order to keep focussed. My first in normally 500 above my starting stack then 1000 then 2000. This way i am focussed on making small gains rather than looking for one big gain.

PiperT

luckylucky wrote:

Cash Games, be it Omaha or Hold'Em, Limit, pot or No Limit i do fine.
Sngs I do fine.

Mtts however I am crap. My major failings are lack of patience and fatigue once it gets to the 2nd or 3rd hour, when it comes to cash games I'm used to breaking every hour or so.

Patience and the ability to shift gears at key junctures are 2 key skills that come to mind, any other key skills anyone can think of, particularly skills other than normal hold em play that you get in cash games. Perhaps image building - I notice several players particularly in rebuys play donkishly at early levels but then tighten up later on, but to me some of this play seems more costly than it's worth.

MTT's are within themselves complex enough and I think you need to apply specific strategy to the different types of MTT.

Is it a Rebuy or Freezout ?

If its Rebuy, are you prepared to gamble early on OR are you going to play it like a freezout ?

Is it a deepstack or shortstack game ?

Is it a playable structure with regard to the clock ?

All of the above will dictate to a major extent, your approach to the game in question. The nuances of table image, aggression, patience e.t.c. will all follow on from your outline strategy for the game. Harrington on Holdem II is well worth a read if you are serious about MTTs.

I'm no expert by any means, just my tuppence worth.

ntlbell

They're easy!

There's these blocks...think of them like lego.....now I like to build a petrol station or little houses with mine.

now at the start I only have a enough for the shell, or maybe a petrol pump or something....so i start to see who has what bit of lego that I need next sometimes this means giving someone else part of my petrol pump to get the bit i need for the shell of my petrol station (the petrol pump is actually worth less)

imagine the whole petrol station in your head always thinking about who has what bit of lego to complete the next part of your station/house.

collect all the bits of lego's add in a few graph's and walla.

FT's and cashes all round and big gorgeous petrol stations.

this is called the esso theory and works very well.

the below is the result from my last big win

luckylucky

PiperT wrote:

MTT's are within themselves complex enough and I think you need to apply specific strategy to the different types of MTT.

Is it a Rebuy or Freezout ?

If its Rebuy, are you prepared to gamble early on OR are you going to play it like a freezout ?

Is it a deepstack or shortstack game ?

Is it a playable structure with regard to the clock ?

All of the above will dictate to a major extent, your approach to the game in question. The nuances of table image, aggression, patience e.t.c. will all follow on from your outline strategy for the game. Harrington on Holdem II is well worth a read if you are serious about MTTs.

I'm no expert by any means, just my tuppence worth.

Yeah true enough there is a lot of variation in the types of MTTS and there is different implications depending on which one, so maybe my question was too broad.

If it's rebuy I'm nearly always prepared to rebuy early on, as for taking chances, I'll normally take chances early on. but in the likes of tribeca rebuys. there's hardly a need to take chances early on as the crazies that play these get all-in with all kinds of crap, so I definitely take chances here with AQ, AK, decentish pocket pair.

In regards to specific structures, well I've payed a few different stuctures. From the quick 8 minute tribeca ones to some 20 minute ones where you are pretty deepstacked for several levels.

I'll give a spcific instance then that I'm thinking of and only thinking(40% chance I'll play) of playing tonite, there's an Copenhagen EPT qualifier on Ultimatebet at 8 pm, it's a $100 rebuy with a starting stack of 2500, blinds start small, either 5-10 or 10-20, don't remember off hand and go up at a gradual rate every 15 minutes so it remains by online standards pretty deepstacked for a while, especially considering you can rebuy and you can get a double add-on. So any thoughts on this, besides the obvioius one and that is not to play it you MTT loser

DubTony

ntlbell wrote:

They're easy!

There's these blocks...think of them like lego.....now I like to build a petrol station or little houses with mine...........


the below is the result from my last big win

There's a word .... eh .... oh what is it ... Jeez. I haven't used it in years


AH YES ... GOTTIT !!!

LOOPER !

Did I spell that right?

Killme00

DubTony wrote:

There's a word .... eh .... oh what is it ... Jeez. I haven't used it in years


AH YES ... GOTTIT !!!

LOOPER !

Did I spell that right?

He does have a point though about the little blocks...i just hope they are all compatible...you know are swedish lego blocks the sae size as irish ones etc

luckylucky

Killme00 wrote:

He does have a point though about the little blocks...i just hope they are all compatible...you know are swedish lego blocks the sae size as irish ones etc

I think you're getting Ikea mixed up with Lego(Denmark), some might say Ikea, Lego what the's difference I suppose .

On the theory of little blocks, it's a good point, I did adapt a tactic before of trying to stay in top fifth or top quarter, i.e.e if i hadn't been making moves in a while and I found myself slipping down I'd be looking to make moves to keep myself in contention - I think that kind of thinking actually worked kinda well and maybe I should make a conscious effort to do that ; though maybe not on Tribeca, which is too volatile for any sort of set game plan if you ask me ,other than being patient and not too agro as Killme said. These plans rarely go quite according to plan though, any kind of strategy you have in this game has to take into account who's at the table and of course the other players, some of em hats off to em tough muthas are not always so willing to accomodate giving you bricks lego or otherwise unless it's one smashed over your head

Hectorjelly

just play every hand as best you can and you will do well. 99% of tournament strategy that people go on about is total rubbish. Just play tight, very aggressive clever poker and you will do well.

nicnicnic

Don't listen advise on mtts from cash game players!

bops

all you gotta do is win your races when it gets to the crapshooty stage - simple as that!!

the (proven) way to do this is:
A) have more chips than your opponent
call the AI rather than making it
C) NEVER call the AI really fast
D) be the slight dog

happy mtting

sikes

never underestimate the power of the stop n go.

Never get to a point where you cant reteal, restealing >> stealing.

Wreck

luckylucky wrote:

.

the ability to shift gears at key junctures

This is the difference between the top players and everyone else. Anyone can play tight and with a little bit of luck end up in the money, but its the players who are able to crank it up a notch at key points who come out on top more often then not. At least imo.

ntlbell

nicnicnic wrote:

Don't listen advise on mtts from cash game players!

I hope that's a little bit of tongue and cheek with hector.

If not it's a very stupid bit of advice.

kincsem

luckylucky wrote:

Mtts however I am crap. My major failings are lack of patience and fatigue once it gets to the 2nd or 3rd hour, when it comes to cash games I'm used to breaking every hour or so.

Lack of patience and fatigue after two or three hours suggest that you are going into the MTT tired. I am re-reading the book "The Promise of Sleep" by William C Dement, for the third time. Tiredness was a problem for me, as I woke at 6 am each day (work at 7:30), and often went to bed after midnight (poker). No problem now as I retired at the end of November.

This book gives information on how to manage your sleep. The message boils down to, "If you don't get 8+ hours every day you build up a sleep "overdraft" that you must pay back by sleeping more than eight hours". So if you sleep six hours for seven days you are fourteen hours overdrawn, and must sleep your 8+ hours plus fourteen hours, (say 12, 12, 12, 10) to get back to normal.

I'm sure your poker game is ok. You just need to be in a relaxed, alert, patient state to play your best game. I don't believe in strategies in MTTs. Why would you gamble early with a less that ok hand in an attempt to double up? Of course you will have to loosen up your game in the later stages.

nicnicnic

ntlbell wrote:

I hope that's a little bit of tongue and cheek with hector.

If not it's a very stupid bit of advice.

no the advice was serious; the grammar was terrible but wasn't directed to any cash player in particular although Hector's advise was pretty good

RoundTower

luckylucky wrote:

Cash Games, be it Omaha or Hold'Em, Limit, pot or No Limit i do fine.
Sngs I do fine.

If this is genuinely true you should do fine at MTTs, if you have a lack of discipline/patience you will have to conquer that. Otherwise you are running good in cash games, or bad in MTTs.

cardshark202

If you are good at cash games, you should find tourneys somewhat easy. What HJ said is correct as usual. You rarely have to make any tough decisions, so it usually just plays straightforward.

shoutman

I think what seperates the great players from the above average is their hand reading skills. Watching Negranu putting players on hands is really something, obviously he has built up a picture of what hands his opponents could be playing and how they bet certain hands and thats really what you have to do.

Be patient, try to take in as much information about your opponents as possible and dont do anything which is obviously stupid.

Simple really :P

ianmc38

i think the resteal is probably the most important factor from mid to late stages in MTTs.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

luckylucky

RoundTower wrote:

If this is genuinely true you should do fine at MTTs, if you have a lack of discipline/patience you will have to conquer that. Otherwise you are running good in cash games, or bad in MTTs.

I have no reason to fabricate any statements and am a little insulted at the suggestion that I may be doing so.
not that any one really knows me here too well, though I have made contacts from here, but the only place I'm dishonest at is on the poker table

If I do have to spell it out...
I've been playing online for several years and have played hundreds of thousands of hands in cash games, my first year or so was probably not much better than break even to be fair,last year was the 1st year I took down some serious money in cash games but again to be fair I think I just ran good and still had a lot to learn about the game - not that I still don't have more to learn now!

Since September 05 when I got pokertracker, and a few months later getting pahud and playing the game almost every day of the week and becoming very serious about the game, going full-time at the game last August I have played tens of thousands of hands in both Hold'Em and Omaha - I could be running good, but I have worked it out statisically it's highly unlikely , similarly in STTS

In multis I have no doubt I have got unlucky at certain points, but lately in particular I seem to be playing particularly bad. I think my main problem with multis is that the important ones are later in the evening and I'm tired after playing cash games all day and I am just losing interest and patience after a while, trying to make things happen too much, tbh maybe I'm just plain better off giving them a miss altogether.

RoundTower

luckylucky wrote:

I have no reason to fabricate any statements and am a little insulted at the suggestion that I may be doing so.
not that any one really knows me here too well, though I have made contacts from here, but the only place I'm dishonest at is on the poker table

Everyone seems to think I'm insulting them recently. I'm not. If anything, I've tried extra hard to spread messages of peace and goodwill to all men at this joyous time of year.

But really -- I don't know you from Adam. All I know is you play poker on the internet. OF COURSE I'm going to think you may delude yourself about your abilities, forget about your losing sessions, only count the hands where you were "really" taking it seriously, etc. Don't take this as a personal insult. Don't feel you need to post your track record in red and black ink in order to prove something to me, because I don't care.

I stand by what I said before: if you are a good cash game player you will do well in tournaments without altering your game much. If you are not, then I wouldn't want you pissing away money entering tournaments where you have little hope of winning.

If all the MTTs you want to play are on when you are tired, or you find it hard to focus for more than an hour or two, no you will not do well. But this isn't part of adjusting your game, you would likely do just as badly if you played cash games at those times or for marathon sessions. Also it's worth mentioning again the possibility you are running bad, the long run in MTTs is very long.

luckylucky

RoundTower wrote:

OF COURSE I'm going to think you may delude yourself about your abilities, forget about your losing sessions, only count the hands where you were "really" taking it seriously, etc. Don't take this as a personal insult.

I stand by what I said before: if you are a good cash game player you will do well in tournaments without altering your game much. If you are not, then I wouldn't want you pissing away money entering tournaments where you have little hope of winning.
QUOTE]


Well if it's genuinely true that it wasn't meant as a personal insult, then no offence taken

Seriously though, it would be hard to delude yourself about online performance when you got pokertracker, telling you exactly how you have done, so a statement like that in my OP, if it was false would not have been made in error but would have been outright dishonest, so that's why I was a bit peeved.

Anyway no real major offence taken, it wasn't the 1st time I saw one of these I dunno what u call em maybe semi-condescending for want of a better description replies so just felt like responding rather than folding this time

Anyway you're right I would probably do equally as crap in marathon cash game session when I'm tired.

Thanks for the replies all btw - some good advice there, even the doubting thomas ones I'll probably continue playing the odd mtt and hope that I put all the advice into practice.

ntlbell

No ones doubting you.

It's as exactly like hector said play every hand as best you can.

If you REALLY are a winning cash game player then you must know how to play a hand correctly.

If you continue to play your hands correctly in tournaments you will do well.

There's nothing else to it really.