Disciplining children - collective responsibility?

Ickle Magoo

Following on from a very interesting mini-debate on PI...

Who has responsibility for disciplining children? Does everyone have a responsibility to keep children on the straight & narrow? The PI thread in question refers to a family member physically repremanding - is/should grandparents, uncles & aunties step in when the parents are absent or failing to discipline children adequately? Or should it be up to the parents to decide what happens to their children & by whom? Or if parents don't consider their childrens behaviour to warrent a telling off or smack, is it anyone elses business?

This isn't a smacking debate - just discipline in general tho I imagine levels of discipline are bound to feature...

Nevyn

Discipling no, not unless the extended family member is in charge of the child for a lengthy period of time.
Correcting or commenting on or saying 'that is not allowed' I would say is a different matter.

There was a time when adults would rebuke children for bad behaviour and it was the way of the world and living in a community.

These days children are mostly ignored and the majority of adults have no to little interaction with them;
either through families being smaller or people not interacting with thier neightbours and childen in thier neighbourhoods.

So adults get less intolerant of children as they expect them to be mini adults and don't know how to talk with them or connect with them
and children are not used to adults correcting them and don't show them any respect and react badly to another adult correcting or reprimanding them;
parents then are on thier own with out extended family helping and being the sole example and the sole input
to the children on how to behave and what is acceptible behaviour making parenting a harder struggle.

Children also don't get to see parents rebuking other children and disaplining them, so the think that thier parents are awful and unfair and don't understand that is the way things are.

Parents are also under a lot of stress with modren living and mixed messages about how to parent thier children and the lack of back up from thier parents ( who due to the housing situations live a long way away from the family with kids ) and feel that children should be happy and so are afraid to tramumatise thier children by saying "No" and towing a hard line with them.

We are as a society becoming less child tolerant and not supporting parents while condeming them and it is the children that suffer.

Heinrich

Fortunately we have a police force and judiciary to *discipline* the ones disciplined by incompetent parents when the brats become adults!

A child is not entitled to interfere with another person. Why do some parents think that their kids rule the world because the little horrors have them wrapped around their little fingers?

Supermarkets and major hardware/home improvment outlets come to mind.



A licence is required to own a dog because apparently there are responsibilites in owning one. Kids do not...

lilrayosunshine

Yes, the extended family should help discipline the children.
You may find that as children get older they don't want to do what mam and dad tell them to, so if granny or granddad where to step in the child may listen.
Also if there is an aunt or uncle that is younger than the parents, the child may relate to them and not see them as giving out to them but more as advising them through life.
I find children who are surrounded and supported and disciplined by a group of adults have more respect for other adults. Whereas children who only ever have their parents correcting them can be rather disruptive because they think thay will get away with more when their parents are not around.

InFront

Yeah, suitably close family elders obviously have a role in disciplining kids, surely that's a realistic assumption of any kind of functional family?

Heh, that guy in PI took it too far, but in general, of course people like grannys and aunties and uncles have a role in bringing up, and therefore, disciplining kids. that does need to be in line with the parent's wishes, of course.

turbot

There is no easy answer to this question!

*Because*

Disciplining is a part of a much bigger process about teaching kids to behave appropriately.

What is appropriate varies dramatically depending on the adults perspective.
Plus there is no general consensus about what is appropriate from one adult to the next.

Secondly, there are so many factors that drive a childs behaviour:
- Genetics
- Nutrition
- Upbringing
- Environment
- Role Models
- Psychological imprints
- Spiritual aspects

That applying "discipline" implying some form of punishment, in a (possibly misguided) attempt to change a childs behaviour may be completely inappropriate, without at least a decent awareness of how to change behaviour.

For example, positive re-inforcement (rewards) is often more effective than negative re-inforcement (punishment) in changing behaviour, though this barely scratches the surface.

So my first inclination is to say that if an adult feels compelled to discipline a child, they should first wisely examine their own motives, mindset and quality of life.

If they are not sufficiently self aware, or too egotistical, and they are acting out of irritation, instead of what is best for the child in the long term, perhaps they should deem themselve underqualified to discipline a child.

If they feel they are capable, then they should take sufficient responsibility to set the child right... because discipline alone is probably insufficient in yielding a decent behavioural change.

As a general principle, in my opinion, parents should be responsible for developing a child, along with their teachers, and select adults their parents should choose for them. If another adult has a problem with that childs behaviours, they should direct their suggestions towards the parents.
If the parents are incapable of raising a child, then maybe that adult will do best by involving other professionals who know how to get a good result in such a scenario.

Ickle Magoo

There is no easy answer, that's true. The thread & a subsequent pm made me consider my own views, which is why I posted here for others views.

I would hate for anyone to smack or shout at my kids - as I think that is bourne out of adult frustration & temper rather than a well thought out positive lesson for the child to learn - but I have no problem at all with someone telling them not to do something, or that they should be more grateful or think before they act or something similar...or telling me about a situation so I can deal with it.

A licence is required to own a dog because apparently there are responsibilites in owning one. Kids do not...

I hear this comparison a lot on boards & I don't understand the point being made. Licencing doesn't stop people from mistreating their animals or breeding them for fighting & nor does it make them train their dogs, educate the owners not to let their dogs poo on pavements & in childrens play areas etc, etc - in much the same way parents having licences for children wouldn't mean there would be no more bad or irresponsible parenting. There are & will be irresponsible dog owners & bad parents regardless of licencing, I think.

Heinrich

Ickle Magoo wrote:

I hear this comparison a lot on boards & I don't understand the point being made. Licencing doesn't stop people from mistreating their animals or breeding them for fighting & nor does it make them train their dogs, educate the owners not to let their dogs poo on pavements & in childrens play areas etc, etc - in much the same way parents having licences for children wouldn't mean there would be no more bad or irresponsible parenting. There are & will be irresponsible dog owners & bad parents regardless of licencing, I think.

Licensing a dog is society's way of making owners accountable for the animal Whether they do or not is another issue. In the case of children there is no accountability.

As I said before; thank God we have a police force and judiciary to deal with the unfortunate results of incompetent parenting. Those *model* parents who seem to be of the impression that their offspring are the only ones who matter in this world are quite annoying as are their brats.

Hang around a toy shop for an hour or so and observe homo sapiens...

Ickle Magoo

Heinrich wrote:

Licensing a dog is society's way of making owners accountable for the animal Whether they do or not is another issue. In the case of children there is no accountability.

As I said before; thank God we have a police force and judiciary to deal with the unfortunate results of incompetent parenting. Those *model* parents who seem to be of the impression that their offspring are the only ones who matter in this world are quite annoying as are their brats.

Hang around a toy shop for an hour or so and observe homo sapiens...

And that has what to do with my original question?!

Heinrich

Ickle Magoo wrote:

And that has what to do with my original question?!

If you think hard enough the answer might dawn on you.

So long as the brats don't bother me just carry on as you were.

Beruthiel

Ickle Magoo wrote:

And that has what to do with my original question?!

What I believe he's trying to say is, in order to get said licence, perhaps an interview process could be set up to check the suitability of any prospective parents. Anyone not passing the interview would be neutered.
Or something along those lines.
Ah, when I become dictator of the world...

Respect.
It's gone.
I look back at my own childhood, I would be too afraid to cross that line that kids have no problem doing so these days.
Adults back then, no matter who they were, had no problem putting you in your place with a remark of some kind.
That never happens in Ireland anymore.

While sitting in a little plaza in Spain last summer a little boys ball went across to the other side and banged into a little old man, the auld geezer had no problem wagging his finger in disapproval, not in a nasty way, just letting the little fella know he should be more careful. You will not see that happening in Ireland anymore.

These days, parents either do not have the time and energy to put the work into a child anymore or they just couldn't be arsed.
I put it down to the lack of meaningful time spent with a child, I believe it's really that simple.

exCrumlinBoyo

No one except me or my wife can smack our children. That includes grand-parents, aunts, uncles ect. They can verbally correct our children but not physically.

I am not a fan of smacking in any way, that’s not saying I do not smack my children, I feel that some people smack too much that the kids become immune to it. I give my kids various degrees of warnings and only smack once in a blue moon. Now it’s a good wallop on the arse, but its one that he will remember for a while to come and it gets mentioned if he misbehaves. It works and I may be only have to do it a few times a year.

I just don’t like the idea of some one other than the parents smacking children, its just not right.

I remember when I was a kid I was playing in a friends house and I don’t remember what happened exactly, I got into an argument with this kid and his mother smacked me across the arm. It left a bright red mark and when I got home my mother seen it and went ballistic, and rightly so. She asked me who did it and why and she stormed out of the house, me in arm and knocked on the other mothers door and smacked her right across the face and said how f*ucking dare you lay a hand on my child. How does it feel for you?

She was correct to do that in my opinion and if someone smacked my child like that, I would do the same. Smacking is for parents only as they have their own limitations on what defines a smack and how the punishment should be dished out.

Heinrich

exCrumlinBoyo wrote:

No one except me or my wife can smack our children. That includes grand-parents, aunts, uncles ect. They can verbally correct our children but not physically.

I am not a fan of smacking in any way, that’s not saying I do not smack my children, I feel that some people smack too much that the kids become immune to it. I give my kids various degrees of warnings and only smack once in a blue moon. Now it’s a good wallop on the arse, but its one that he will remember for a while to come and it gets mentioned if he misbehaves. It works and I may be only have to do it a few times a year.

I just don’t like the idea of some one other than the parents smacking children, its just not right.

I remember when I was a kid I was playing in a friends house and I don’t remember what happened exactly, I got into an argument with this kid and his mother smacked me across the arm. It left a bright red mark and when I got home my mother seen it and went ballistic, and rightly so. She asked me who did it and why and she stormed out of the house, me in arm and knocked on the other mothers door and smacked her right across the face and said how f*ucking dare you lay a hand on my child. How does it feel for you?

She was correct to do that in my opinion and if someone smacked my child like that, I would do the same. Smacking is for parents only as they have their own limitations on what defines a smack and how the punishment should be dished out.

Charming post, especially the part when the ma says "how f*ucking dare you lay a hand on my child."!

If ever I get the sort of brats that carry on in my house they and the parents will be told to leave immediately. You seem to lean towards violence whilst at the same time intimating that you do not subscribe to smacking. Paradox or are you simply having us on?

exCrumlinBoyo

Heinrich wrote:

Charming post, especially the part when the ma says "how f*ucking dare you lay a hand on my child."!

If ever I get the sort of brats that carry on in my house they and the parents will be told to leave immediately. You seem to lean towards violence whilst at the same time intimating that you do not subscribe to smacking. Paradox or are you simply having us on?

Are you a parent?

I don't understand what you don't understand? As I said, I am not a fan of smacking BUT sometimes its necessary, its as simple as that. You mention Violence. Would you consider a smack on the arse voilence? If you do, well you need to take a look at your self my friend!?

Kids will be Kids, and you can talk to them until your blue in the face and only a smack on the arse will work. You will find that parents who do not smack are the ones who have the brats.

As for my mother and the other mother who hit me. I would do exactly the same as no other person than myself or my child's mother - my wife can hit my child, if they did I would give them a taste of their own medicine.

I am not sure what you do not get about my post? In simple terms that a 3 year old can understand... I dont like to smack my kids but once in a while its needed to keep them on the straight and narrow. Also no one else can smack out kids, Simple.

Beruthiel

Smacking is lazy parenting imo.

exCrumlinBoyo

Beruthiel wrote:

Smacking is lazy parenting imo.

Out of curiosity are you a parent? I totally disagree with your comment above. I have tried the no smacking deal as I am not fond of it. When you tell a 3 year old not to do something a million times and he/she still dose it are you going to tell them one more time? Give a smack on the arse and thats that. Would you consider that to be lazy? Smacking is only a last resort and done only when absolutely needed and all other avenues have been explored.

Again, do you have kids? Are you a parent?

simu

Heinrich wrote:

A licence is required to own a dog because apparently there are responsibilites in owning one. Kids do not...

Yeah but anyone can get a dog license...

b3t4

exCrumlinBoyo wrote:

When you tell a 3 year old not to do something a million times and he/she still dose it are you going to tell them one more time?

Rather than a smack why not teach the child in another manner that their behaviour has consequences. Surely even a 3yr old can understand that if they continue their behaviour you will take away one toy from them.

I find it hilarious that you find it appalling if another person lays a hand on your child and have absolutely no problem inflicting such on them yourself. Such double standards. If it's wrong, it's wrong.

I worked in a shop previously and remember one incident where a child wished to purchase an item from me. I piped up, not even thinking, "what's the magic word?". The child hadn't a clue what I was on about. The mother behind them didn't look too pleased at me but should she not have been embarrassed that it took a stranger to get a please out of their child.

Children today are getting away with far, far too much.
A.

The Sweeper

Sat in a coffee shop two weeks ago in Melbourne. Watched a mom in her 20s and her child - somewhere between 2 and 4 years old I reckon. The mom was chilled out. The kid was walking in and out between her legs, and pressing her little kid fingers on the glass of the cake counter, saying what each food or cake was. She was happy for the duration. So was her mom.

I found myself waiting for the mother to start on the child: "stay still. stop pushing my legs. how would you like it if I kept walking around your legs. Keep your hands off the glass. You'll smudge the glass. Look! look! the man's coming to tell you to leave the glass alone!"

Because that's what you'd get in England.

Kids today are rotten because their parents have utterly abandoned everything they were taught when they were kids, and I don't understand why that's the case.

goldenbrown

'its a crime to hit a child' - Bernardos the children's charity,
the 1 or 2 parents of a child are the joint custodians and are only responsible for the day to day charge and control of the child until 18 years old, ..... now its a free country and if you want to be an unpleasant bully who hits and frightens small people just because you can (or because you are hung over, annoyed by someone strongeer than you, too lazy to look at alternative discipline etc.,) that is of course your choice, or alternatively you might search google with the phrases 'positive reinforcement', 'time out', 'children discipline'

exCrumlinBoyo

Out of the last 3 replies on this thread I would take a big guess to say that not one of you are parents or have children. I have asked the question about are you a parent several times without an answer.

Until you are a parent, you don't have a clue as to how difficult it is being a parent.

Beruthiel

exCrumlinBoyo wrote:

Out of curiosity are you a parent? I totally disagree with your comment above. I have tried the no smacking deal as I am not fond of it. When you tell a 3 year old not to do something a million times and he/she still dose it are you going to tell them one more time? Give a smack on the arse and thats that. Would you consider that to be lazy?

Indeed I would.

Smacking is only a last resort and done only when absolutely needed and all other avenues have been explored.

What avenues are you talking about? (excluding 'telling' them not to do it)

Again, do you have kids? Are you a parent?

I am the mother of an 18 year old, and I have never had to lay a hand on my daughter. I somehow managed to bring her up well behaved. I put an awful lot of hard work into that though.
Persistence, consistency and teaching your child to understand that you mean what you say, can work wonders in the long term.

I suggest you do a parenting course, it should be mandatory imo.
It always amazes me that new parents are just 'supposed' to know how to take on the biggest responsibility of their lives with no education whatsoever, bar what they learned from their own parents, which a lot of the time, is far from a perfect role model.

b3t4

exCrumlinBoyo wrote:

I would take a big guess to say that not one of you are parents or have children.

No, I am not a parent but I am the daughter of an extremely heavy handed mother. Of course it didn't start out that way. A few lights smacks when I was younger turned into something an awful lot worse as I got older.

The day I hit my mother back with as much force and venom as she applied she stopped.

I hope that one day you won't be faced to see the error of your ways when your child hits you or another child.

I'm not sure why you believe parents are the only ones who have a say in this matter. Everyone who is ever born in this world has parents and bring something to the table when discussing parenting techniques.

Children grow up and they do remember things, don't ever forget that.

I'd also be of the same thinking as Beruthiel when she mentions parenting courses.

A.

The Sweeper

exCrumlinBoyo wrote:

Out of the last 3 replies on this thread I would take a big guess to say that not one of you are parents or have children. I have asked the question about are you a parent several times without an answer.

Until you are a parent, you don't have a clue as to how difficult it is being a parent.

I'm not a parent.

But I, like everybody else on the entire planet, have first hand experience of what it's like being a child.

My point is I remember how I was disciplined when I was a child. I remember what worked and what didn't. My mother never nagged me. She didn't go round the shops telling me to drop that and leave this and don't touch the other, or threaten me with 'the maaaaaan'. She was a pretty chilled out mom. And subsequently, I was a really chilled out kid.

She smacked me about three times in my life, and I'd agree with Ruthie, when she smacked me it meant she'd just lost the head. She invariably felt worse than I did afterwards. Me, I felt confused and pretty annoyed and angry back at her for being slapped. I don't ever remember thinking "wow, I won't do that again".

That's what I mean when I say I think parents have abandoned everything they knew from their own childhood. I don't think it's their fault necessarily - for instance, many of the older boardsies (30s upwards) would have had moms who stayed at home as opposed to moms who held full time jobs. It's a different landscape, but all I see every time I leave this house is stressed parents, who in turn are stressing their kids, who in turn are behaving like brats, and in turn that's stressing their parents more.

Carrigart Exile

Its a fabulous thing to have children nurtured by all members of a wide family. I used the word nurtured because discipline is part of that nurturing process and children learn their morality and the behaviours from their closest.