Damn you Anna why cant you be more like serena and make it easy for us

Trippie

Playing like a rock have played two hands in 2 hours worth over 50 quid and the table has noticed this as my pre-flop raises are getting respected for the first time in a very long time.

Now one guy has been making it 5 on the blind all night so far and i hear him say it again when im utg+1 with AcKc. So i limp knowing a few more people will limp and give me the chance to build a nice pot pre-flop when it comes back around to me. However he limps and nobody seems to have heard him say he'll raise it so i dont put up a fuss as i dont want to give my hand away if i do hit.

I have 210
Bb has about 600

So 6 people to the flop of

Ks 8h 7c

The aggressive guy makes it 5 while the bb who has been playing pretty solid pots it for 30. I call here as i feel if i raise it im only going to get called by 78 or something better. The initial raiser folds.

The turn is the 9c and the bb fires out 80 and ive 181 behind so what should be my play? (against anyone else at the table im lumping it in straight away as it has been playing extremely loose but the bb has next to me been the most solid player at the table)

should i just let this go or can the flush draw give me odds to call or is my king even good?I know i cant just flat call as he is going to put me all-in on the river and unless i hit big i cant call so its either all-in or fold

Goodluck2me

ship it...

Samba

Raise PF, don't count on other people to do this for you, i fold the flop in an unraised pot.

Against a very tightsolid villain I also fold the turn.

Trippie

firstly i should of said that he is solid but he does tend to overvalue his hands and believes them to be a lot stronger than they actually are

Samba wrote:

Raise PF, don't count on other people to do this for you

the guy at the table said he was going to do it and it was the first hand he hadnt raised blind since he sat down so thats why i limped

i fold the flop in an unraised pot.

Against a very tightsolid villain I also fold the turn.

but what are you putting him on?

as he is tight i couldnt put him on a set here as he is the bb so he would normally raise if he had a pocket pair as there is enough in the pot for him to make a big bet to get rid of a lot of limpers

RoadSweeper

i'd probally ship it as said above.
you may be up again 77 or 88 tho

Trippie

RoadSweeper wrote:

i'd probally ship it as said above.
you may be up again 77 or 88 tho

but can you put him on a set as i feel he would of raised in the blind as there was a bit in the pot pre-flop to make the bet big enough for people to fold?

phantom_lord

That's tourny talk. Why would you wanna pick it up pf with a pocket pair. You wanna flop a set in a multiway pot and stack someone.

RoadSweeper

he might not always raise with low to medium pocket pairs. If he's solid, its cheap for him to see a flop. Also more than likely there will be over cards ( hense maybe not raising against 5 players. Then if he hits, he'll hit hard.

Now im not saying he has a PP, but its what i might think in his position,

He may have 78 as you mentioned, or shifted gears and inst so solid.

For me im calling anyway.

Trippie

phantom_lord wrote:

That's tourny talk. Why would you wanna pick it up pf with a pocket pair. You wanna flop a set in a multiway pot and stack someone.

first of all theres about 15 in the pot preflop and if i was playing solid with 88's i would bet the pot with the idea of narrowing the field as it is the jackpot and everybody is insane and i can see myself ahead 90% of the time so im both building the pot if i do hit and also gaining credit if i dont and an ace hits for instance

Trippie

RoadSweeper wrote:

He may have 78 as you mentioned, or shifted gears and inst so solid.

For me im calling anyway.

would you just call the 80 leaving 100 behind when its pretty certain he is going to bet your last 100 hundred on the river. if you call there is 240 in the pot and i presume he will bet 100 on the river putting you all-in so what do you do then. imo you cant call if a 6 or 7 hits but if an ace hits what do you do now that a straight is on the board with a solid player betting into you?

Hectorjelly

Preflop play is very good but unfortunate.

I would just fold the flop, his raise there contains a range of hands, some you beat, most you dont. However if you cold call the raise it shows a lot of strength, that guy will realise that unless he is a total moron. So if your hand is best he will often just check fold the turn, basically you dont win any more if your hand is good, but if its not you will have to commit your stack. There are no likely draws for him to have, and he is on the bb so basically has two random cards. This means its very difficult to put him on a hand or know which cards are safe or not.

This is a perfect example of when protecting your stack is far more important than protecting the pot.

On the turn you could definitely call and then fold the river unimproved if an ace or a king were good, (a king isnt a real out though as if it is an out your opponent will have a counterfeited 2 pair) , you would need a very good read on your opponent though as it would be a disastor to fold the best hand.

Unless I had a great feeling of strength from the BB I would push the turn. Your equity is now pretty good against any hand he might have, and there is a small chance he folds bottom two pair or similar. Also the pot is now bigger and he may call with a worse hand.

RoadSweeper

Trippie wrote:

would you just call the 80 leaving 100 behind when its pretty certain he is going to bet your last 100 hundred on the river. if you call there is 240 in the pot and i presume he will bet 100 on the river putting you all-in so what do you do then. imo you cant call if a 6 or 7 hits but if an ace hits what do you do now that a straight is on the board with a solid player betting into you?

Sorry i meant as i said before. I'm shipping it.

Trippie

Hectorjelly wrote:

Preflop play is very good but unfortunate.

thank you

However if you cold call the raise it shows a lot of strength, that guy will realise that unless he is a total moron. So if your hand is best he will often just check fold the turn, basically you dont win any more if your hand is good, but if its not you will have to commit your stack.

so by him betting the pot would you feel that he is weak and trying to put me off the pot as i have been folding an awful lot throughout the the night to bets which i was 50/50 to calling or does it strikr of extreme strength and he is hoping i will push?

This is a perfect example of when protecting your stack is far more important than protecting the pot.

i was thinking that as i did not have anymore cash on me and the table was extremely soft and very very profitable just ask jbradavo. does the fact that i don't have a reload in me here affect my play here?

Hectorjelly

Trippie wrote:

so by him betting the pot would you feel that he is weak and trying to put me off the pot as i have been folding an awful lot throughout the the night to bets which i was 50/50 to calling or does it strikr of extreme strength and he is hoping i will push?

Without being there I dont know, a lot of live cash game players just get in the habit of betting the full pot whenever they bet, it doesnt really mean anything. People sometimes often bet big to stop people bluffing them.

Trippie wrote:

i was thinking that as i did not have anymore cash on me and the table was extremely soft and very very profitable just ask jbradavo. does the fact that i don't have a reload in me here affect my play here?

I would try and play the hand as well as possible without worrying about things like that.

RoadSweeper

if you feel that you have enough to play with left and the table is soft. Yes.

You can wait for a more certain situation to make your money, possibly avoiding such situations with the solid players.

Trippie

Hectorjelly wrote:

I would try and play the hand as well as possible without worrying about things like that.

we all try and play the best we can at any given time however if it comes down to your last buy-in and you know you can beat the table given time id say you are going to be pushed towards not risking your stack as you feel you will have a better opportunity later on.no?

Trippie

RoadSweeper wrote:

i
You can wait for a more certain situation to make your money, possibly avoiding such situations with the solid players.

the solid players? it is me and the guy beside me the rest of the table is running 85 euro blind and winner takes all on the odd hand here or there. thats how much of a gamblers table it is

Hectorjelly

Your edge in these games isnt as big as you think it is, you cant start folding hands because you want to reduce your varience. I mean if you were exactly 50 50 it would be ok, but if you are letting things like that play too large a part (and by that I really mean any) in your decision making proccess you are liable to wipe out any edge you do enjoy. Others would disagree with me here though.

I really dont like the term "better opportunity" and it is indicitive of some faulty thinking.

robinlacey

as played i think the turn is a shove,but this wouldn't be the case if either
a- you didnt know he was inclined to overvalue hands
or
b- you didn't have a flush draw

hector's point about folding the flop is a very very good one,the sort of thing i never think of but probably should..

Samba

Trippie wrote:

firstly i should of said that he is solid but he does tend to overvalue his hands and believes them to be a lot stronger than they actually are

the guy at the table said he was going to do it and it was the first hand he hadnt raised blind since he sat down so thats why i limped

but what are you putting him on?

as he is tight i couldnt put him on a set here as he is the bb so he would normally raise if he had a pocket pair as there is enough in the pot for him to make a big bet to get rid of a lot of limpers

You omitted some fairly valuable information there in which case I agree with Hector's line.

Without being there I dont know, a lot of live cash game players just get in the habit of betting the full pot whenever they bet, it doesnt really mean anything. People sometimes often bet big to stop people bluffing them.

I disagree with this, next time you are playing live, see what gets shown down when pot is said PF, on the flop and on every other street.

RoadSweeper

Trippie wrote:

the solid players? it is me and the guy beside me the rest of the table is running 85 euro blind and winner takes all on the odd hand here or there. thats how much of a gamblers table it is

solid player then

Hectorjelly

Samba wrote:

I disagree with this, next time you are playing live, see what gets shown down when pot is said PF, on the flop and on every other street.

Why dont you enlighten me?

fuzzbox

robinlacey wrote:

as played i think the turn is a shove,but this wouldn't be the case if either
a- you didnt know he was inclined to overvalue hands
or
b- you didn't have a flush draw

hector's point about folding the flop is a very very good one,the sort of thing i never think of but probably should..

Why do you shove the turn over call?

robinlacey

fuzzbox wrote:

Why do you shove the turn over call?

just cause i hate calling 80 leaving 100 behind,may as well get it all in now

why would you call instead?

phantom_lord

There's no fe with a push. So there no advantage with pushing, the money's going in on the river anyway,so at least we've the option of backing out and saving the 100 if we wish.

Trippie

phantom_lord wrote:

There's no fe with a push. So there no advantage with pushing,

what about if he folds?

the money's going in on the river anyway,so at least we've the option of backing out and saving the 100 if we wish.

so if i call and he bets 100 on the river do i have to call as im getting 3.4 to 1 on my cash?

jbravado

Trippie wrote:

the solid players? it is me and the guy beside me the rest of the table is running 85 euro blind and winner takes all on the odd hand here or there. thats how much of a gamblers table it is

Lol.In my defence......actually no Ive got nothing!!Funny.
This table was brilliant-a dream for you and your pal who were playing extremly solid.
All things conidered I get it in here at every availaible oppurtunity.

Trippie

jbravado wrote:

This table was brilliant-a dream for you and your pal who were playing extremly solid.

i was a bit annoyed that the table broke but i cant complain as i took another 1000 from the other table

robinlacey

Trippie wrote:

so if i call and he bets 100 on the river do i have to call as im getting 3.4 to 1 on my cash?

well to be honest one of the reasons i'd get it all in on the turn is so i don't have to worry about a decision like this on the river!

the answer is probably yeah you would have to call,but i dunno,if there ends up being 4 to a straight or whatever it'd be tricky

this is why i think you may as well shove on the turn,at least if you get the money in on the turn you definitely still have some equity cause of your flush draw,whereas if you wait till the river you might end up having to call off the rest drawing dead (or you could even end up folding the best hand,which would be even worse!)

Trippie

robinlacey wrote:

this is why i think you may as well shove on the turn,at least if you get the money in on the turn you definitely still have some equity cause of your flush draw,)

so if you shove the turn are you happy with a call or do you feel you need to hit in order to win?

phantom_lord

Trippie wrote:

what about if he folds?

I very much doubt he will, that's why I don't like a push, I don't think we've any folding equity.

so if i call and he bets 100 on the river do i have to call as im getting 3.4 to 1 on my cash?

no.

robinlacey

Trippie wrote:

so if you shove the turn are you happy with a call or do you feel you need to hit in order to win?

i don't know,sometimes you'll be ahead,sometimes you'll be behind
as i said i'd probably fold if it weren't for the flush draw,so i wouldn't be delighted with a call,but this is not to say its impossible to be called by a worse hand

Trippie

robinlacey wrote:

but this is not to say its impossible to be called by a worse hand

what KQ K10?

Trippie

phantom_lord wrote:

I very much doubt he will, that's why I don't like a push, I don't think we've any folding equity.

well clearly you have no folding equity if you push

robinlacey

Trippie wrote:

what KQ K10?

god only knows
you see some strange things if you sit at a poker table long enough!

Trippie

but considering i have been the tightest player at the table can you see me being called by anything behind me

robinlacey wrote:

god only knows
you see some strange things if you sit at a poker table long enough!

yeah i suppose so,i did see that hand in drogheda where the guy open pushes with Q10 and the next guy goes all-in with knigs and you call with 2 pair and take down a nice pot for 1/2.

robinlacey

lol yeah that was a laugh,were you at that table?

anyway,my point is really that its not terribly useful to try to put someone on an exact hand,(or in this case to figure out an exact hand that can call you),since dealing with exact hands is so difficult and ultimately pointless-you're better off figuring out what sort of range someone has and what your best action is against this range...

in this hand the villain has a wide range on the turn,which includes hands that we crush,and hands that crush us,and its not easy to narrow it down with the information we have,so i prefer to just push while i might be ahead anyway and if not i have a strong draw,and let him surprise me!

Trippie

robinlacey wrote:

lol yeah that was a laugh,were you at that table?

I happened to be walking past when it happened.


btw i did push the turn and he called instantly for another 100 the river came a 7 he turned over K10 off and i scooped the pot.

Throughout the night i was pretty much on cruise control every hand i played however i felt this one put me in the toughest spot for the entire night and i wasnt sure how i played it so thats why i wanted other opinions