STTs - When to move up, or back down

Mellor

There has been a few threads on STTs over the last week or so. Some talked about ITM percentages, targets and some people posted their win rates.
One thread discussed if it was better to aim for the money then shoot for gold, or should first be your target from the start.
And it seams to be universally agreed that 20 buy-ins is enough for any level.
Although some people prepare to have a little more at limits above $20.

But how long should you give your 20 buy-ins to make progress?
Take the move from $5 to $10 STTs for example.
Your bankroll has just reached the 20 Buy-ins mark, $220 (inc. reg).
How many losing $10 games can you play before you move back to $5.

The average ITM should be 1 in 3 so should you work with this, giving yourself 3 games to make progress. Is this too little. If you lose your first 3 games, should you take your $187 and go back to $5 and get back up to $220 before trying again.

Or should you try one swing at it. Reach $220 play one $10 STT, if you cash continue, if you lose go back to $5 until you reach $220.
This way, you will probably yo-yo between levels before breaking it, buy you will be closer to the 20xBuy-ins required at all times.

Or does anybody have another method, do you wait for 25 buy-ins and stop at 20. Its just something that bothered me lately, as I play at a level until I had well past 20 buy-ins and then moved up, giving myself maybe 7 games befor I was back below 20 Buy-ins.

Mellor

sikes

i think people who are using a 20 buy in rule are probably leaving themselves short. A good player will more than likely suffer a 20-30 swing in every 1000 stts.

Mellor

do you play STTs?
if so what BR do you use for set limits. Take $10, how much before you move up to the $10 games?

BigDragon

If you play STT as you main BR builder, you should really have 100 buy-ins to move up.

nicnicnic

sikes wrote:

i think people who are using a 20 buy in rule are probably leaving themselves short. A good player will more than likely suffer a 20-30 swing in every 1000 stts.

I would agree with this personally I think at least 35/50 is needed at levels higher then $50 buy in.

Have a look at kpnuts or buzzer graphs on scope to see what kind of swings can be involved at higher levels even for the better players

ArmaniJeanss

Mellor,
I used the sort of system which I think you are alluding to when I was moving up through STT levels at the 'lower' end. $1, $2, $3, $5, $10.

(Just to emphasise I had about $200 in my account at the time, so bankroll was never really an issue, i was well overbankrolled).

Anyway I battered away at $1 games, got my account up to $230 and decided $230 was an X figure. As long as I stayed above X I'd play $2 STTs, below X and I'd go back to $1. I yoyo-ed a bit before etablishing myself in $2 games.

I then set a new X target $270 at which I'd move up to $3. I blitzed the $2 STTs quickly (good variance), reached $270. However I kept falling below $270 and moving down to $2, then above $270 again, then down again.
It happened I think 8 times that I got 'relegated'. At that stage I decided that whilst I was bankrolled properly for $3 and that though I wasn't really losing money I decided that my ROI (effectively zero) wasn't good enough, and I decided to stick to $2, set a new target $300 and above that play $3.
Luckily enough the first time I got over $300 I got a good run in $3 and managed to stay above that mark.

I've continued to use the idea of an X figure as I've moved up through levels ($25 now), however I've also been willing to move back down if my ROI was poor at a particular level. e.g, my first 50 games at $20 had an ROI of 4% so I moved back down to $15s and set myelf a new target before I'd moved back to $20s.

Hope that makes some sort of sense.

sikes

Mellor wrote:

do you play STTs?
if so what BR do you use for set limits. Take $10, how much before you move up to the $10 games?

I used to play STTs alot, and am starting back up again.

30 is the bare minimum i would have before moving up, i tend to have much greater than that though.

If you run hot and win your first six games at a level, you immediately have enough of a bankroll for the next level. Should you move up? Well thats up to you, I wouldnt.

Move up when you have the bankroll and are comfortable with your play at the previous level. Never be ashamed to drop back down.

sikes

BigDragon wrote:

If you play STT as you main BR builder, you should really have 100 buy-ins to move up.

I would go along with this certainly for the >100 level. It might be more to do with the emotional effect of seeing a $100 drop from a 3k roll compared to a 10k one though! (If you get my drift)

Mellor

ArmaniJeanss wrote:

I've continued to use the idea of an X figure as I've moved up through levels

Thats kinda what I was looking for, somebody who uses an X figure. I understand that it can take a while to break a level, but varience should be less.
But i dont feel that 20xBuy-in is enough. maybe ok for the $3 level, but i'd want more than $100 to move to $5 and same for the rest. Last bad run I had caused me to drop a level so I want to be careful this time around

El Stuntman

do you not get bored playing SNGs all the time?

serious q

ArmaniJeanss

El Stuntman wrote:

do you not get bored playing SNGs all the time?

18 months now playing them without getting bored

Twice in the last month theres been a problem with STTs on Tribeca, basically there was no STTs available. Both times I played some cash tables - that to me was far far more boring, if there was only cash tables then I'd have given up a long time ago.

dvdfan

ArmaniJeanss wrote:

18 months now playing them without getting bored

Twice in the last month theres been a problem with STTs on Tribeca, basically there was no STTs available. Both times I played some cash tables - that to me was far far more boring, if there was only cash tables then I'd have given up a long time ago.

I agree, i get incredibly bored playing cash games but not playing stt's. Cant put my finger on why, possibly the fact that early stages i take as much notes as possible in between hands im not playing, then your approaching the bubble and things hot up and your playing alot more hands and then the dogfight when your down to last 3.

Getting back to bankrolls, i think its a good idea when you decide on a bankroll for a level whatever that may be that you also have a bankroll for the previous level. For example say you think 20 buyins will cover all but the worst of bad swings at $50 level then youll need $1100 bankroll, then also included 20 buyins for the $20 level which would be another $440 and a total of $1540. Otherwise if you just use $1100 as your bankroll and decide to revert back to $20 if you hit $440 then you really only have 12 buyins (1100-440=660 (660 / 55=12 buyins))

RasTa

It's because nothing changes in Cash. No exictment from busting out a player, or having to adapt to blind changes etc.

My stats for 05/10c and 10/20c cash are +$350 + $100 bonus(after 2 weeks and 3,000 hands). I now believe after a year of STT's that cash is the best way to make money. Just looking forward to getting to 25/50c

When i did do tourneys it was 20 buy-ins, maybe if i did the 100 it could of worked.

Mellor

El Stuntman wrote:

do you not get bored playing SNGs all the time?

serious q

I do if i play nothing but cash. But I get bored with cash quicker. I try to play, cash for grinding out money and STTs for fun and to improve live game (I only play live tourney). Occassionaly I stick to cash for a week or so before geting bored and hittion STTs only, which lasts a month maybe.

jimbling

I played STTs for a good while end of last year and early this year. Although my bankroll didn't have the comfort zone of 100buy-in, I'm a strong believer that it should. If i was playing to make regular income from STTs that is what I would have.

Now, to the second part of you're question. When I was playing, I had a 25 buy-in rule. But the method below can be used for any size buy-in.


Lets say I start with a bankroll of $625 playing the $25 STTs.
I would continue to play these until my bankroll hit $1250. At this point i would make the jump up to the $50 games.
When my bankroll hits $2500 I will move to the $100 level... and so on.
Thats the part we all know and use, but your question pertains to moving back down and how much leeway do we give.
I used to give the whole level. i.e.
I do not move back down until I am reach the 25 buy-in bankroll for the level below, the level we just jumped up from.
So, when my bankroll drops to 1250 I drop back down to the $50 level. And if the abysmal run continues and I drop to $625 I drop back down to the $25 level etc.

This is a very controlled mechanism and keeps everything in order.


Now, to be fair, I didn't really follow the jump up method exactly.
My approach was a slight alteration of the above. When I came close to the buy-in jump I used to tentatively play a game or two in the higher level every now and then. I used to do this until I started to feel comfortable. I found by doing this you have a better chance of not nosediving when you first move up. You feel more confident when you make the full switch.
I found doing this very beneficial and would recommend it.

Obviously if you are bankroll building, and you already feel you can beat the game then there is absolutely no need for this.

Mellor

jimbling wrote:

Lets say I start with a bankroll of $625 playing the $25 STTs.
I would continue to play these until my bankroll hit $1250. At this point i would make the jump up to the $50 games.

I dont think thats a very good way to do it. Say you reach $1250 and move to to $50 games (BR<23 Buy-ins inc reg)
And hit a bad run, say 11 losing games. Br is down to $645. Still @ $50 level. Thats BR<12 Buy-ins.

You are still above the limit for moving back down so you are potentially playing at 12 buy-ins for any level??????????

jimbling

Mellor wrote:

I dont think thats a very good way to do it. Say you reach $1250 and move to to $50 games (BR<23 Buy-ins inc reg)
And hit a bad run, say 11 losing games. Br is down to $645. Still @ $50 level. Thats BR<12 Buy-ins.

You are still above the limit for moving back down so you are potentially playing at 12 buy-ins for any level??????????

I honestly don't have a clue where you're coming from here mellor

The buy-in rule relates to the number of buy-ins you should start with etc. This is to take a hit when you go on a losing streak. So no matter what, at some point you will be below the buy-in rule number.
And also, if I am down to $645, I have either no buy-in or 1 buy-in at the $50 level depending on which way you look at it, after which I must move back down to the $25 level and am back to 25 buy-ins.



Not sure if you misread me or misunderstand the buy-in concept.


Easy e.g. (with higher buy-in number for illustration)
All I am doing is putting a max and min on the amount of money in a bankroll for playing a particular STT level. (it is irrelevant what number of buy-ins you work this calculation from)
So, if you're buy in rule is 50 (which is comfortable, but still low in my opinion) and you are playing the $100(+10) stts. You start with a bankroll of 5500 and you're levels are as follows
MIN: $2750 ($50 level)
MAX: $11000 ($200 level)
So, if your bankroll hits the MIN mark* (or so close you cant afford buy-in at current level) you drop down to $50 level, and if you hit your MAX you move up to $200 level.
You can just re jig the figures for whatever level buy-in rule you wish to use.



*there is no issue with dropping back down before the min mark if you feel you can't beat the game. This is a safety zone for bad runs, not free money to better players than you.


If you still have a problem with this method can you please explain further. It makes sense to me, but maybe there's a glaring error that I am missing. I think it's better than picking your "X" figure from mid air though...thats just too subjective.

I am very interested in peoples thoughts on this as well as I am thinking of going back to STTs while I take on cash again at a slower pace.

Mellor

jimbling wrote:

Lets say I start with a bankroll of $625 playing the $25 STTs.
I would continue to play these until my bankroll hit $1250. At this point i would make the jump up to the $50 games.
When my bankroll hits $2500 I will move to the $100 level... and so on.
Thats the part we all know and use, but your question pertains to moving back down and how much leeway do we give.
I used to give the whole level. i.e.
I do not move back down until I am reach the 25 buy-in bankroll for the level below, the level we just jumped up from.
So, when my bankroll drops to 1250 I drop back down to the $50 level.

After you reach $2500. You start playing $100 games. You will play these in the bankroll range of $1250-$5000. When you reach either of these points you move up or down. $100+10 at $5000 is fine. Thats about 45 Buy-ins (45 x $110 = 4950). But IMO play $100+10 at $1251 is wrong. Thats mot much more that 11 buy-ins (11 x $110 = $1210). Your last game before you move back down means putting 9% of your BR on the line.

I understand that thats your range and you are happy with it, but I think you are letting buy-ins run to low. But if its working for you than fire ahead.

jimbling

Mellor wrote:

After you reach $2500. You start playing $100 games. You will play these in the bankroll range of $1250-$5000. When you reach either of these points you move up or down. $100+10 at $5000 is fine. Thats about 45 Buy-ins (45 x $110 = 4950). But IMO play $100+10 at $1251 is wrong. Thats mot much more that 11 buy-ins (11 x $110 = $1210). Your last game before you move back down means putting 9% of your BR on the line.

I understand that thats your range and you are happy with it, but I think you are letting buy-ins run to low. But if its working for you than fire ahead.

hmmm... strange. I did say two or three times that I thought the buy in rule i was using was much too low. It was the method I was advising you on.. not the actual buy-in level. Thats why I gave the second example as a 50 buy-in rule. you can also do 100 buy in rule. its irrelevant... and completely up to you. I stated that at the very start of my first post:

Jimbling wrote:

I played STTs for a good while end of last year and early this year. Although my bankroll didn't have the comfort zone of 100buy-in, I'm a strong believer that it should. If i was playing to make regular income from STTs that is what I would have.

Now, to the second part of you're question. When I was playing, I had a 25 buy-in rule. But the method below can be used for any size buy-in.

If I do start into STTs again I will be working from a min of 35 buyin rule. maybe 50.

jimbling

sry.. double post

The_Chopper

I'm sick of cash games as well - doesn't help that I've been running bad for about 6 months.

Here's what I've been doing with STT's.
As I mentioned in a previous thread I started out with €59 and just started playing 5STT's - no patients for lower ones (no adviced).
Anyways I didn't move up through the levels until I had 25 buys in for the next level ie when I got to 275 I moved up to 10STT's.

I play 2/3 at a time and find I win more when I'm playing 2 - I'm sure when I've played more than a few 100 I'll be doing 3-4 tables.

Here's the important bit. When I moved up a level say to 50STT, I will play 2 tables. 1 at my new level and 1 at my previous level (30STT).

At present though I'm finding it hard to completely leave the 30STT as my ROI is at 119% with 75% finishes in the money. Whereas at the 50STT my ROI is only at 22% with 50% finishes in the money. Here's the thing though - i've had no 1st places in the 50STTs yet since I moved up there.

RoundTower

this article was pretty much written to address the OP's question

http://www.twoplustwo.com/magazine/current/Angelo1206.html

Mellor

The_Chopper wrote:

At present though I'm finding it hard to completely leave the 30STT as my ROI is at 119% with 75% finishes in the money. Whereas at the 50STT my ROI is only at 22% with 50% finishes in the money. Here's the thing though - i've had no 1st places in the 50STTs yet since I moved up there.

Thats very high and i was wondering, over how many games is this based.

The_Chopper

Hi, I started with 59 1 week ago and have played just under 100 STT. I know the sample rate is extremely high - so I haven't read much into it