KK Pre Flop

Backstreet Moyes

Bassically is their ever any justification for folding KK pre flop in a tournament. I had a disagreement with another boardster who said you can never fold them pre flop. He said id get slaughtered for putting the thread up. Just curious as so many people had a different view of whether its a good fold or a muppet fold.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

5starpool

Sometimes it is correct to, but rarely. I can't remember who said it but a well known quote goes something like this:

"If you never fold KK preflop in Holdem you won't be doing too much wrong".

There have been instances where I have seen people fold KK preflop, but the action and people involved before they did this convinced them that AA was out there. I can't recall doing this myself, but if the correct set of circumstances came up then I can imagine I would.

shoutman

I think you can only lay down KK if you have an amazing read on the player or if there has been a few all ins before you from really tight players where you could realistically put them on AA, I have never laid down KK preflop.

phantom_lord

I've came close to folding it pf twice but didn't, both time I was up against aa.

It's kinda like sets, if you never fold either then you're not doing much wrong. Bubbleking told me some quote about ivey that he's only ever folded it once or something



*awaits flippers reply...*

cardshark202

Yeah don't fold KK.

jimbling

i never have. But I have thought about doing so numerous times. Many many times I have had that gut instinct that I am up against AA.
The thing is, of all those gut instincts.... I I had some right and some wrong. We tend to remember the ones we get right though.
Realistically if you condone folding KK then you will probably fold as a mistake more often than you fold it correctly.

This is why the quote
"If you never fold KK preflop in Holdem you won't be doing too much wrong"
stands up so strongly.

In saying that, I could most certainly find a fold in certain circumstances.... as loyd was pointing out, but they are far and few between.

whiteshadow

if say youre on the bubble in a tournie.. you're close to the money
and 3 other smaller stacks go all in ahead of you then there's no value
in calling with KK. Fold it.. let them knock each other out.. then youre in the money.

Fold

ianmc38

I've come close twice in live cash games when my gut said fold, but I eventually called and was up against AA both times.

Ste05

whiteshadow wrote:

if say youre on the bubble in a tournie.. you're close to the money
and 3 other smaller stacks go all in ahead of you then there's no value
in calling with KK. Fold it.. let them knock each other out.. then youre in the money.

Fold

And make winning the thing very difficult or call and make your chances of winning the tournament much better? I'd call here everyday, either way you're in the money. 2 players are getting knocked out here.

Also Folding KK in a tournament is rarely, if ever right, usually they'll play QQ, KK, AK and AA the same, therefore, sometimes it'll be AA, and other times it'll be QQ and the rest of the time it'll be AK. Unless you have some super read like the tightest player ever re-raises the second tightest player ever who raised UTG!! Then maybe, but these mad examples don't really help.

Don't fold KK Pre-Flop.

jimbling

whiteshadow wrote:

if say youre on the bubble in a tournie.. you're close to the money
and 3 other smaller stacks go all in ahead of you then there's no value
in calling with KK. Fold it.. let them knock each other out.. then youre in the money.

Fold

this would greatly depend on the payment structure of the tourney... as well as how much smaller the stacks were.
i.e.
if it was a top heavy tournament I am calling
if the stacks are much smaller then I am calling

rogue trader

Friend of mine who is 'PokerHound' on boards got AA in the early stages of the IPC (the one that Flipper won).
Blinds were 100/200. PH raises it to 600 and but gets re-raised to 1500.
PH pushed in the rest of his stack (10,000 was the starting stack).
The guy thought for 10 minutes and folded KK face up.

His reasoning - he told PH that no one could push any other hand at that stage unless they had AA.

Pure class.

ntlbell

rogue trader wrote:

Friend of mine who is 'PokerHound' on boards got AA in the early stages of the IPC (the one that Flipper won).
Blinds were 100/200. PH raises it to 600 and but gets re-raised to 1500.
PH pushed in the rest of his stack (10,000 was the starting stack).
The guy thought for 10 minutes and folded KK face up.

His reasoning - he told PH that no one could push any other hand at that stage unless they had AA.

Pure class.

mneh he just suffered from TLS!!!

Flipper

phantom_lord wrote:

*awaits flippers reply...*

Hmmmm... Saw that coming.

I only ever did once - it was in the Main Event of the Europen Classics in the Vic this year. Only 10 min into the tourney... I raised UTG+1 to 175 with KK, mid-position re-raised to 500, got two callers (cut-off & button) and Stewart Nash (tightest player EVER) made it 2,200 (I think) from the SB. £1,500 tourney on the line and I folded. Nash had AA and the re-raiser had KK. I was most proud but no-one believed me

Generally, it's a horrible fold. You need to be absolutely positive he has AA. It'd be kinda embarrassing if you open-folded and your opponent showed AQ or something! Any stage after about level 5 or 6 and it becomes a "never" fold for me.

Hitman Actual

rogue trader wrote:

His reasoning - he told PH that no one could push any other hand at that stage unless they had AA.

I think that's dodgy reasoning, tbh. Assuming the two guys know nothing about each other, how can the guy know that PH wouldn't do it with QQ or AK? And the AA push is bad as well, I think.

Sparky1808

Have only ever folded KK preflop once to a perfect read from a very tight player, bar that perfect timed situation, I'd find it very very hard to fold it preflop unless the same scenario came up again.

...apart from that i've laid QQ down preflop a brave few times, and obviously the rest JJ and below are only natural.

marius

I think Mr Pillow quotes an example of when he did it in a live tourney in the 'Pillow in the Well' thread....very good fold etc.

I've never done it and sadly doubt I ever will......I have folded Aces by accident though......

Rnger

Its always been a poker ambition of mine to fold KK preflop... and be right of course! Its fairly easy I imagine if your 3 betted preflop by the rock of gibralta.

Someone has folded KK to me before. It was the round of each tourney in the fitz. I raise it mid pos and he folds KK face up. During the rebuy period. I cant even remember what I had but it wasnt AA. mental case

rogue trader

lenny_leonard wrote:

I think that's dodgy reasoning, tbh. Assuming the two guys know nothing about each other, how can the guy know that PH wouldn't do it with QQ or AK?

Firstly, the guy made the correct call. Secondly, do you always put your tournament on the line in the early stages of a deep stack tourn with QQ or AK? I hope not. This is poker at it's best.

lenny_leonard wrote:

And the AA push is bad as well, I think.

Perhaps but nearly every one on this thread said they would never fold KK preflop. Would it have been a bad play if the guy called

ntlbell

rogue trader wrote:

Firstly, the guy made the correct call. Secondly, do you always put your tournament on the line in the early stages of a deep stack tourn with QQ or AK? I hope not. This is poker at it's best.



Perhaps but nearly every one on this thread said they would never fold KK preflop. Would it have been a bad play if the guy called

because it turned out to be the right fold doesn't make it the right fold.

No it wouldn't be a bad play if he called.

If he won't call here with KK against pretty much an unknown.

When will he call?

rogue trader

ntlbell wrote:

because it turned out to be the right fold doesn't make it the right fold.

you might want to read this again, because i think you'll find when you make the right fold, it's always the right fold

ntlbell

rogue trader wrote:

you might want to read this again, because i think you'll find when you make the right fold, it's always the right fold

rogue trader

weird..... but surprised your sister is that good looking.

ntlbell

rogue trader wrote:

weird..... but surprised your sister is that good looking.

Burn...

She wouldn't fold KK preflop tho

rogue trader

well if she had have called in my example, she would have been heading home to take more unusual photos.

Hitman Actual

rogue trader wrote:

Firstly, the guy made the correct call.

Results-based thinking.

rogue trader wrote:

Secondly, do you always put your tournament on the line in the early stages of a deep stack tourn with QQ or AK? I hope not. This is poker at it's best.

Depends on the circumstances. Maybe, maybe not. But it wouldn't be a case of putting my tournament life on the line, more the hope of getting my money in in a profitable situation.

rogue trader wrote:

Perhaps but nearly every one on this thread said they would never fold KK preflop. Would it have been a bad play if the guy called

Against an unknown, a call would have been understandable. And the action definately doesn't say without doubt that PH had Aces. I played that IPC event, and there were a lot of inexperienced players there as well. Saying that an all-in in the first level can only mean Aces is dubious, to say the least.

rogue trader

Lenny, you're right. A call would have been completely understandable.
But to right this off calling it 'results based thinking' is wrong IMHO. We can say all we want about what he could have had whether that be QQ or AK.
I hear it all the time in tourn's... "i have to call" and the next sentence is "i knew you had Aces, or .. I knew you had trips".
All i'm saying is that in successful tournament poker, sometimes making the right fold is more important than making the right call.

saying all that, i probably would have called!

nicnicnic

fold KK preflop are you nuts

ntlbell

nicnicnic wrote:

fold KK preflop are you nuts

If you fold it often enough you're bound to make a world class fold eventually then you can write a post about it here or better still stand up and look at your wife across the city west floor and say "they forgor one thing hun. I can dodge bullets baby" we'll congratulate you lots about what an amazing lay down you made and encourage you to fold KK more often.

Goodluck2me

ntlbell wrote:

www.oneleggedgirls.com
funny the lengths you need to go to to get these quality of photograph

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

sikes

I just folded AA preflop, I rock

nicnicnic

sikes wrote:

I just folded AA preflop, I rock

flipper did that once as well

sikes

was a sat, so I kinda had to unfortunately. didnt even get a chance, had to open fold it from utg!! Will dig up the HH

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20000 (9 handed) internettexasholdem.com

SB (t31660)
BB (t80557)
Hero (t29484)
UTG+1 (t37157)
MP1 (t18321)
MP2 (t25990)
MP3 (t14091)
CO (t7040)
Button (t18468)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Ah, Ac.
8 folds.

Final Pot: t9000

One player left to go in a turbo sat. Blinds were outrageous as usual

cardshark202

sikes wrote:

I just folded AA preflop, I rock

Wow, did he have quins?

RoundTower

sikes wrote:

was a sat, so I kinda had to unfortunately. didnt even get a chance, had to open fold it from utg!! Will dig up the HH

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20000 (9 handed) internettexasholdem.com

SB (t31660)
BB (t80557)
Hero (t29484)
UTG+1 (t37157)
MP1 (t18321)
MP2 (t25990)
MP3 (t14091)
CO (t7040)
Button (t18468)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Ah, Ac.
8 folds.

Final Pot: t9000

One player left to go in a turbo sat. Blinds were outrageous as usual

How big are the antes? With no antes this looks pretty bad, you will be all in on the SB in 2 hands.

sikes

yeah i had 28k and it was 20k/10k/2k it think. there was 2 tables and the other had multiple players all in on the next two hands.

Also the BB in this hand is calling cos he has a huge tank in comparison and we are right on the bubble.

Its not as good as your bluff, but Im still proud to say i open folded AA UTG.

RoundTower

oh forgot there might be more tables.

RichieLawlor

told ya !!

White Knight

I folded KK to harold on the FT of jackpot 100dc a while back. I didnt show and he didnt need to. next hand was already on my horizon ...

Fatboydim

I almost folded KK last night in the Westwood. Though Jaden didn't believe me and I hadn't read this thread then. Blinds were 50/100. I'm ep I make it 400 looking for a reraise. I think there's one caller, then the SB makes it 2500. I know the player and I watch him. There's not a bother on him he wants a call or a re reraise. I think he has aces. I reason that if I'm correct then there's no point in any kind of a reraise as we'll both end up all in. So I either fold or call. Many will argue that I should have reraised... But I was convinced he had aces. The only reason I then called was because I knew if I got lucky I'd get all his chips. The flop came king high. I decided that if he had aces I had to bet... Make it look like AK. So I bet 3k sure enough he comes over the top of me all in. Insta call and I say to him have you the aces? He throws them over and I tell him the bad news. But I very nearly folded pre-flop.

So having said all that I lose to AA later in the game when I make a donkey play with A8s - This time I was convinced that the guy didn't have AA and was just trying to bully with a PP and monster stack. I was further convinced when on an A55 flop I bet out and he re-raised all in. If he had the nuts he wants to keep me betting doesn't he? If he has an Ace with a better kicker the same thing applies and I know he's not got rag ace. I could have folded, but I didn't.

And Brian.... Isn't that a ladyboy in the pic?

5starpool

Fatboydim wrote:

And Brian.... Isn't that a ladyboy in the pic?

Either you are a part time photographer with a penchant for the weird, or you are just a lover of things 'alternative' or else 'very well read'.

Please enlighten us as to which?