Small Boxer fighting strong GAA player

pjbrady1

Myself and a friend had a discussion,

I contend that the Meath Full back of the 90's Darren Fay (6'2" 14stone7lb, amazingly strong, fast, quick hands, good stamina, quick reactions, very brave) would have made short work of Wayne McCullough in a boxing match.
Rules were that Fay would have 6 weeks boxing training prior to the fight.
My logic was that Fay only had to harras McCullough into a corner and refuse to let him out, and then use sheer power with technique of six weeks training to pummel him.

He contends that McCullough would avoid damage and take him down with number of punches. I'm not so sure about this, boxing training can only improve your ability to take a punch to the stomach. Fay's thick neck would resist damage of any head shots. Fays stomach would receive little damage from a bantanweights power. Fays large hands would be like hammers when driven with basic technique.

Anyways opinions in general on small boxers against unskilled opponents who are very fit and strong and vastly outweight them. Mcculough would be giving 6 stone and 7 inches away here.

cowzerp

pjbrady1 are you taking the piss? i can tell you never boxed-mcullogh was world champ and did not win by power-therefore this is not how he'd beat up the big guy-instead he would pummell him for rounds untill darren fay either gave up or collapsed-i boxed at the same weight as wayne and would rip the head off a 6,2" gaa player easily. and i've sparred lads this big that have boxed for 3-4 years and done the same so i know by experience-:eek:

cowzerp

Oh yeah by the way-big necks dont stop your brain getting bashed up. and thats what would happen when wayne averages up to 200 punches a round..

Big Ears

You would naturally assume the bigger guy is stronger but in most cases against a worlc class boxer this would be wrong . Kostya Tszyu(the great Russian/Austrailian Light-Welterweight champion 140lbs/10 stone when weighing in) could bench press 300 lbs in his prime .

Anyway back to this specific argument , McCullough is a super-bantamweight nowdays but if there was no weight limit he would come in a lot heavier .
McCullough is known as being feather-fisted(against other boxers that is) he would score plenty of flash knockdowns however based on being rediculously quicker and tagging him off balance repeatedly . McCullough probably has the greatest chin lb for lb ever , until scientists prove it's physically possible to knock him out/hurt him from hitting him in the head I won't believe it .

I don't care how big and strong Fay was I doubt he could hit harder than Hammed(who sparred heavyweights in his time and got the better of them)

conclusion: Fay doesn't land one punch and McCullough stops him on cuts or repeated punishment which is too one sided .

6 weeks boxing training isn't worth **** when coming up against a world class fighter he may aswell have had none .

BrianD3

A professional fighter vs an amateur football player where the footballer takes on the fighter at his own game? I could only see one result.

On sky last christmas they showed Chris Kamara (ex pro soccer player, big enough guy) "trying" to spar with much smaller Ricky Hatton. Hatton was just casually landing punches without appearing to concentrate and was laughing his head off the whole time. Knocked Kamara down several times. When Kamra tried to hit Hatton he was like a slow lumbering giraffe, I don't think he landed one punch. Fay would probably put up a better fight but i'd expect to see something along the same lines if he took on McCullough.

PS Fay is not partiularly big at 14.5 stone, GAA players are rarely amazingly strong and if you want to talk about bravery, Wayne McCullough is a professional in a sport that has claimed hundreds of lives down through the years...

pjbrady1

Some great responses here,

Overall I change my mind based on solid info from actual boxers.

"i can tell you never boxed-mcullogh was world champ and did not win by power-therefore this is not how he'd beat up the big guy-instead he would pummell him for rounds untill darren fay either gave up or collapsed-i boxed at the same weight as wayne and would rip the head off a 6,2" gaa player easily."

This was my mates assesment that he would simply wear him down and get more aggressive as the larger man tired.

Big necks actually do prevent you from getting your brain bashed around. The large neck muscles stop your head swaying left to right with as much acceleration holding the brain more stable after receiving a punch. Holyfield used to work alot on his neck muscles.

Fay was amazingly strong, Kosta Tysu bench press of 300lb is surely for one rep maximum. I weigh 11st 7lb (could easily get down to 10st7lb) and I was able to three rep 170lb (I'v always been maintaining with pushups though). That was only after three months of limited weight training.
Punching power is based on weight of someones arm/fist and the speed they can deliver it at.

Debate over, Fay would put up a good fight, but Mccullough would start to take it home from the fifth round on as Fay tires.

cowzerp

pjbrady1 wrote:

Punching power is based on weight of someones arm/fist and the speed they can deliver it at.
.

As an experienced boxer and coach i have to correct this-punch power is based on overall body weight and the ability to put all that weight at speed into a technically correct punch-in your assesment this would be true of the non trained person and also of a lot of the martial arts as only the arm is used for the punch.. oh and as someone who got whiplash while boxing-i agree you need strong neck muscles but this does not stop brain trauma-the brain rocks about the skull whether the head moves or not-:D

walshb

Anything is possible and if the guy is trained properly and fairly fit, then he has a chance, as does any big strong naturally athletic man. However, he without doubt will also need one very important thing, and that's a natural flare to throw punches. Oh and the courage to actually set foot in the ring. People seem to forget this very important quality.

Wayne was a fantastic fighter with an almighty chin, but he was easily hit and if this lad has a heavy punch, speed and proper technique, again I say it is possible. I guess there are too many permutations to take into account, so I will not dismiss any result should they fight:)

Bodhidharma

I have to say i laughed when i saw this. McCullough can survive Naz and Morales but would go down to some oversized neanderthal turnip. Ha ha ha.

To be fair, McCullough can take a beating with the best of them. He wouldn't have a really hard punch so i doubt he would be able to knock out a 14 stone guy with a single shot. But if it was in a match the technique would shine through, it wouldn't be so much the strength of the punch rather the speed and accuracy of a flurry of them.

I had a similar discussion with my bro. I maintain that Naz (in his prime) would be able to knock out a 6 foot odd wreslter, the Rock or someone, with a single punch. I think i heard Naz said on his infamous documentary that it only takes 4 pounds of pressure to the chin to knock someone out. So i'll side with him, and McCullough.

Also forgot to say, just because your big and strong it doesn't mean you can take a punch. My guess is the guy would collapse like a deck of cards with one shot to the kisser.

walshb

Although an interesting discussion, I think it's a little futile to be honest.
It's simple as far as I'm concerned, if this GAA man proves that he has a natural ability in the ring, ie. he can move fairly decent, has good balance and can throw proper punches whilst employing a decent defense, then 6 weeks of hard training will at least produce a threat to Wayne. Now that's all still unknown. If the guy has very little of these qualities, Wayne destroys him early. Fact is that a guy this big will be a threat to any man who is so much smaller, providing he's a 'good big one'!!!

Cooee

reminds me of the tv show where they have the discussion
In a fight between a bear and a lion who wins!


Impossible to answer...

But my money is on McCullough to put Fay in hospital - a bunch of body shots to sicken him, continuous jabs in his face. Wouldn't last 2 rounds!

dlofnep

Size plays an important role, but it's not the only role. In jiu-jitsu, little guys tear apart people twice their size all the time through technique. In k-1, I've seen Kaoklai knock out Mighty Mo who was double his weight and was one of the hardest hitters in K-1.

I think Wayne takes it convincingly.

pjbrady1

Just to add a few more thoughts,

Walshe B mentioned courage/strength and I'v just remembered something about Fay's "Strength" level. Fay bossed the square against professional 15stone+ Australian Rules players, using both body collisions and aggression/strength in general tackling play. So he is naturally well beyond Wayne on that front. (Wayne was badly bossed around by Scott Harrison, giving some indicator of his strength in clinches). So with six weeks training, would a good trainer not be able to get Fay to keep his left jabbing away, then rush in, clinch Mcculough's two arms to his sides, then hit Mccullough with the right to the head on the break. In six weeks he would have a very effective right cross/hook.

Fay was also fast, and fast people have an innate ability to move both arms and legs very fast. Which lends itself to punching power, when combined with technique.

Has anyone ever seen a proper boxing match with the above scenario, ie an athletic, fast, strong far larger athlete, against a small boxer. It would be illegal anyways wouldn't it?

BrianD3

I found an article on rec.sport.boxing about an exhibition fight which supposedly took place between Tommy Ryan (world champ welterweight) and Eugene Sandow (world renowned strongman and bodybuilder) The fight is said to have taken place in 1895 and the article was originally published in Boxing and Wrestling magazine. It is very possible that entire story is a myth/fiction, even so it is fairly plausible and is entertaining

When the strongest man in the world fought the champion.
By. Toby Patrick. (Boxing and Wrestling magazine, June, 1955)

Flanked by his Secretaries of State and War, President of the United States
Grover Cleveland lit a massive black cigar and leaned back in his Presidential
box at the Washington National Theatre. The year was 1895, the occasion an
American Press Club benefit performance. After dinner (500 pounds of rare roast
beef and 33 breasts of guinea hen) Sam Harris, well-known theatrical booking
agent and manager of fighters, strolled to the center of the candle-lit stage.
"Mr. President, distinguished guests, friends," Harris roared, trying to reach
the upper balcony, "we have what I think is a fine program for your pleasure.
Please don't subdue your applause."


After a succession of jugglers, magicians, and fire eaters, Harris walked
quickly to mid-stage and held up his hand "Gentleman, we have the good fortune
to have with us tonight Mr. Tommy Ryan, welterweight boxing champion of the
world. Of course Mr. Ryan will not engage in fisticuffs but he has generously
consented to demonstrate his skill with a punching bag. I give you Tommy Ryan".


The master boxer, ,who only eight months before defeated Mysterious Billy
Smith, for the title, emerged from behind the curtain dressed in long kelly
green trunks held up by an American flag at his waist. A spotless white shirt
covered the upper part of his body. His chestnut brown hair was 'clipped short,
we call it a crew-cut today, but Kid McCoy used to say, "Ryan goes to
cross-eyed barbers."


Tommy bowed toward the President then walked over to the wooden platform which
housed his small speed bag. The piano player started to play Swanee River in
fast tempo and Ryan put the bag into motion with one perfectly placed left jab.
He picked up the rhythm set by the piano and the bag bounded back and forth
with blinding speed. Every few seconds the spectators let go a burst of
applause and President Cleveland held his cigar between his teeth so that he
could have free use of his gigantic hands.


Ryan hit the bag with his elbows, his forearms and his forehead and not once
did he lose control.


Standing in the wings, waiting to go on next stood Eugene Sandow, world famous
strongman, whose feats of strength made him as well known as John L. Sullivan
and Queen Victoria. Sandow watched Ryan's performance with a look of total
disbelief on his face.


Tommy finished his act by lying on his back and banging away at the bag with
the soles of his shoes. That brought down the house and Ryan left the stage
with the greatest ovation he ever received.


As he reached the wings where Sandow stood, the strongman 6 feet tall and 215
pounds of rock like muscle looked down at Ryan, 5. feet 7½ inches and 147
pounds. "You not big and strong," Sandow drawled through a heavy German accent,
"I no see how you light and hit bag dat fast."


Ryan was startled, he knew about Sandow as every one else did but he never saw
him before in his life. Tommy didn't know what to say so he just smiled and
tried to walk past the big man.


But Sandow's Curiosity was aroused. He didn't budge from in front of Ryan and
Tommy couldn't pass him in the tiny vestibule. Sandow stared at Tonimy's skinny
arms and legs, then flexed his tremendous biceps which had often jerked 280
pounds from the floor and clear over his head,'


"l think if I hit you, I kill you," he said.


Ryan was annoyed by this time. "Mr. Sandow," he explained in a low deep voice
"I agree, if you hit me you'd probably kill me, but don't forget, first you'd
have to catch me and second I'll not he standing idly by."


Sandow thought a few seconds, as if the sarcasm hadn't registered. When he got
the idea, his face reddened and his flowing moustache twitched in anger. He
placed his
big hand on Ryan's shoulder and said "I go on stage soon and lift weights..
When I
finish you come out and we fight; I show you Sandow can do what he says.


Tommy wasn't a coward, not by a long shot, but in relating the incident to Joe
Humphries many years later he admitted he wasn't anxious to even spar with a
man as powerful as Sandow and give away 60 pounds in weight beside.


"I had no idea how fast he could get around on those piano legs of his," Ryan
told Humphries "but I knew if I make one mistake he'd ruin me for life. He was
mad, I could see it written all over his face."


Tommy got hold of Sam Harris while Sandow was on stage and told him what had
occurred. Harris always the showman, liked the idea. "Gee Tom," said Harris
"you and Sandow with gloves on will bring the house down. It's one hell of an
idea. I'll announce it as soon as he finishes up out there."


Ryan was speechless, he expected Harris to call the monster off his tail but
when Sam encouraged the exhibition, Tommy had no alternative but to consent.
Sandow raced back to the wings looking for Ryan when his act was done.


Reluctantly Tommy pulled a set of 8 ounce gloves from his traveling bag,
flipped a pair at Sandow and slowly edged his small fists into the pair he kept
for himself. By now Sam Harris had come off stage and stood between the
strongman and the boxer.


"I've announced your exhibition and you should have heard the yelling and
screaming. You'll go three rounds. And Tom take care of yourself."


Sandow watched Ryan put on his gloves and then did the same. Harris asked them
if they were ready. They nodded yes.


"All right," Sam said "I'll introduce you one at a time. First Sandow and then
you Tom. When I call your name walk out on the stage."


After the introductions the two men stood next to each other and the difference
in size and muscular development was ridiculous. Even Sam Harris quivered as he
studied the startling diversity.


The best description of what happened on that pale-lit stage in Washington, D.
C 60 years ago came from Tommy Ryan himself as he explained the incident to Joe
Humphries. These were the great champion's own words:


"As a professional strongman Eugene Sandow was unequaled. As a would-be boxer
he was a pathetic joke. Just as he said, be was powerful enough to kill me with
one punch-If he could land it. But he couldn't hit even an inexperienced
fighter with a fishing pole.


"Strong as he was I was sure I could knock him out anytime I wanted to' But
there wasn't any point in trying to slug him, I had a fight scheduled with Joe
Dundee in Buffalo a week later, and I didn't want to risk breaking my hands.


"His futile efforts to reach me and the ease with which I lightly tapped his
vital spots were the most convincing arguments that speed and skill can
overcome brute strength whenever they are pitted against each other.


"For several minutes I made no effort at all to lay a glove on Sandow. I let
him try his best to hit me and avoided him without effort. I feinted him into
the most
ludicrous poses one could imagine. Here was a giant in every phase of physical
development as helpless as a baby when trying to be a boxer.


"Finally to end the burlesque I tapped him on the chin. It was hardly a blow
just a push, but well timed. He stepped right into it and stopped dead in his
tracks. Sandow knew even less about absorbing the shock of a punch than he knew
about delivering one.


"We still had about 30 seconds to go but Sandow grunted and in a despairing
sort
of way ripped off his gloves and said, I guess I no fighter."

Khannie

Cooee wrote:

In a fight between a bear and a lion who wins!


Impossible to answer...

The internet can answer all questions!

Bear V's Lion

jdivision

Given the way Aussies beat up Irish players in the international rules there's no way Fay would have a hope in hell

nacho libre

pjbrady1 wrote:

Myself and a friend had a discussion,

I contend that the Meath Full back of the 90's Darren Fay (6'2" 14stone7lb, amazingly strong, fast, quick hands, good stamina, quick reactions, very brave) would have made short work of Wayne McCullough in a boxing match.
Rules were that Fay would have 6 weeks boxing training prior to the fight.
My logic was that Fay only had to harras McCullough into a corner and refuse to let him out, and then use sheer power with technique of six weeks training to pummel him.

He contends that McCullough would avoid damage and take him down with number of punches. I'm not so sure about this, boxing training can only improve your ability to take a punch to the stomach. Fay's thick neck would resist damage of any head shots. Fays stomach would receive little damage from a bantanweights power. Fays large hands would be like hammers when driven with basic technique.

Anyways opinions in general on small boxers against unskilled opponents who are very fit and strong and vastly outweight them. Mcculough would be giving 6 stone and 7 inches away here.

amazingly strong to me is someone who can bench press close to 400 pounds. Could fay do this?

walshb

Nacho, strength is very very deceptive and just because a person can lift a certain weight or bench press a large weight does not determine fully how strong they are. Lifting weights is a fair guide, but it has a lot to do with repetition and technique. Natural strength is the key here, a person who has inner strength, balance and coordination. In soccer for example, Zidane is a very strong peson, because of his size and balance. He may not be able to bench press his own weight, but on the pitch he's a very hard man to knock over. In boxing, Ali was extremely strong, he pushed and shoved and lay on opponents and used this to his advantage. He didn't possess the KO power of some heavies, but he was naturally stronger.

pjbrady1

For boxing I'v read that bench pressing can be pretty useless. Far more effective is something like breaking stuff with a sledge, or flinging weights at a wall. All of these activities are done at speed, whereas a bench press is executed slowly. Go into your local gym and aska guy benching 100kg to throw some snappy left jabs, I would imagine most of those guys would be throwing them like a tired heavyweight. Go over to the running machine, you will sure see some snappy jabs from someone with decent strength and a good overall level of fitness.
True Fay is not "amazingly strong", but in comparison to Wayne Mccullough its not even a debate.