DVB-S/DVB-T combo receiver, pref with ability to use FTV card

JHMEG

Hi all,

Sorry if this has been asked before... I did a lot of searching and cannot find a definitive answer.

Basically I currently have a Sky digibox and a FTV card for Ch4 etc. I'm also able to get good reception from Three Rock, and therefore DTV.

So what I'd like to know is there:
a) A combo DVB-S/T box that I could use to get digital sat and terrestrial?
b) A combo box that can read the Sky FTV card (via Phoenix interface etc)... a Dreambox or cheaper alternative maybe?
c) PVR functions are not important but would be nice if not too expensive.

As regards to question B, would a Sky digibox be required to keep the codes fresh? I believe that the Dreambox can update the codes itself?

cormacl

in terms of dreambox, the only combined model they have at present is the 7025 which ships with 2 satellite tuners but these can be switched with DVB-T (Terrestrial) or DVB-C (cable) variants. Some of the web shops may now offer customised configs.

Mine is DVB-T/DVB-S and like your description, gets satellite on one and DVB-T on the other tuner. I have a 250Gb drive fitted and can PVR etc.

The images on the box support several soft-cams which can read legitimate cards from several vendors including Sky.

Dreamboxes, are best used with a home LAN where they can be updated more easily and also for the purposes of downloading the cam software and indeed updates online... its not an absolute requirement.. you can flash and manage these using a serial cable.. its just much easier with a network.

There are other more consumer brands that have both and S & T combined functionality.. I know Kaon have some models in this area, some with/without PVR function.

In those cases, reading Sky cards is a little harder, but can be achieved with programmable CAM modules in the CI-slots, such as the Dragon Cam which can be programmed to read legit sky cards.

As far as updates are concerned, I've never seen the FTV card updates work on either CI CAM modules or soft cams.. now I've gone as long as 3 months without having to put the card back into the Sky box.. but sooner or later, it stops working and needs some time in the sky box to reactivate.

watty

Forget about dreambox for reliable Sky use.

The Reelbox has Dual DVB-s Card and also DVB-t. In theory it can use a Sky card as badly as PC or Dreambox.

You can also use a PC for DVB-T and DVB-s. Or DVB-S2 (BBC2 HD). There is a quad tuner Dual DVB-t/Dual DVB-s PCI express (but I forgotten where I saw it). I have 2 x DVBS-2 (technotrend Basic) + Happuage Analog TV card (Which I will replace with 2x hybrid analog / DTT either on one or two PCI) in a PC.

I'm not impressed with Kaon.

I'd hold off on spending much for DTT till the Irish trial decides anything.

slicedpanman

watty wrote:

You can also use a PC for DVB-T and DVB-s. Or DVB-S2 (BBC2 HD). There is a quad tuner Dual DVB-t/Dual DVB-s PCI express (but I forgotten where I saw it).

Hi Watty...
was this the card you were talking about?
looks like the business... If it works with MediaPortal, I'll be ordering one ASAP!

JHMEG

@cormacl - thanks for the info. Your setup sounds a bit like what I'm after. I read about using a Sky card in a Phoenix interface connected to the serial port on a Dreambox.. do you know will the codes get updated this way, ie instead of using something like a Dragon cam?

@watty - thanks for the info. I looked up the reelbox (hadn't heard of it till now), but it at ~ €800 it aint exactly cheap (either)! :eek:

Presently I have a Nova-T PCI and a Twinhan Sat-CI for DVB-T & S. I've chosen not to bother with a FTV card in this setup as the PVR software I use doesn't supports cams etc (yet).

Ultimately this box is only powered on when it's recording or we're watching something, the rest of the time it's in standby. What with ever rising ESB salaries I'd prefer not to go down the PC-powered-on-all-the-time route, hence a simple (read: low power cosumption) box would be nice for just watching TV.

Supercell

JHMEG wrote:

@cormacl - thanks for the info. Your setup sounds a bit like what I'm after. I read about using a Sky card in a Phoenix interface connected to the serial port on a Dreambox.. do you know will the codes get updated this way, ie instead of using something like a Dragon cam?

No need at all to go to those lengths.

If you install the Gemini Project image (probably the most popular one) then hit the blue button on your remote and you install various cams etc (if the Dreambox is connected to the internet of course). Just install CCam-131 and the Sky card will work fine.
Of course you will need to use the Digibox for pay for view (needs to use the Digibox modem), but other than that it should work fine.

cormacl

longfield!.. are you getting the updates via ccam?.. I experimented way back on my 5620 with everything from evocamd, mgcam, scam and others.. and none seemed to get the updates, I always had to use the sky box to reactivate the card every few months. So I just stuck with evocamd on the 7025 and pop it into Uncle Rupees box every so often to reactivate.

and Since you mentioned Gemini...

I've been using Gemini for the 7025 since it became available.. I'm currently on v1.80 while the latest is 2.0.

Somewhere after August 24th, Enigma2 (which is the software that the 7025 uses) was changed to improve cable (DVB-C) scanning.. and that seems to have broken scanning of QAM-16 constellations (which is what the Three-rock DTT trials are using).

So if I flash Gemini 1.90 or latest (2.0) or any of the other variant images or even DMMs official images after that date, then my DVB-T scans do not detect any services when I manual scan on Freq 738Mhz.. works perfectly on 1.80. I even manually downloaded the service data onto the later images and when I tried to switch to say RTE1, nothing displayed and the tuner status screen shows QPSK constellation when i know it should be QAM-16.. as seen on the 1.80 release.. so its definitely a bug.

Loads of other users outside of Ireland are getting their DVB-T fine.. but of the ones I've checked with, none are using QAM-16. I've been rattling Dream multimedia to get it sorted.. but I am aware that since they got cable support going, there has been some serious reworking of DVB-T/C support... so I'm hoping its going to work some time soon.

Its the one thing you need to be ready to accept with dreamboxes.. there is flux in the software.. lots of stuff being added and if you chase releases, expect bugs here and there.

Just looking back on your current PC setup.. be aware that the 7025 takes a few minutes to boot.. so I just leave mine on 24x7.

PVR functionality is great.. I can record programmes from all DVB-T services at the same time (probably because they are on a single transponder) and at the same time can record from the satellite feed on the 2nd tuner... and even watch another recording at the same time.

The WAF (wife acceptability factor) is very high.. shes a German native and hence the satellite feed is a 3-LNB 13/19/28 to get UK and German stations. ITs wonderful to have all this and RTE DTT on one system.

The box can export the hard drive contents over samba (CIFS.. windows share) or FTP.. and so we can copy off recordings and use projectX & mjpegtools and friends to do some cutting for DVD burnage if needed.

JHMEG

@Longfield: thanks for the info. Sounds the biz. As I don't have any PVR requirements, what model Dreambox (past or present) would be the suggested minimum I could get away with?

EDIT: Reading back over this thread I see cormacl says the 7025 is the only dual DVB-S/T capable Dreambox.

I have no reqs for PPV, as we only use the FTV card (ie Ch4, five etc).

What cam are you using for the Sky card (bit of a newbie to all this)? Presume it's Dragon?

[Ideally I would point an aerial at Divis (as well as the currently pointed-at-Three-Rock aerial) and get the whole lot on "freeview", but we're out of range of Divis unless we get a a circus-marquee aerial... ]

@cormacl: again, thanks for your input. I'm a firm believer in "if it aint broke don't fix it", so I'd be quite happy to stay with versions that work!

Ronan|Raven

I dont know why people say the sky card willnot work reliably in a dreambox it works exceptionally well.

watty

Yes, today maybe... And you need a Skybox too. And there is no Interactive/Digital Text or Sky Program Guide. It's a hobbyist solution.
Quote:
Its the one thing you need to be ready to accept with dreamboxes.. there is flux in the software.. lots of stuff being added and if you chase releases, expect bugs here and there.

JHMEG

Did a bit of googling and looking on ebay and found this:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/KAON-KTSC-570-2xCI-DVB-S-DVB-T-COMBO-NEW_W0QQitemZ9719622945QQihZ008QQcategoryZ96970QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem

Obviously it does DVB-S and -T at the same time.

So, is it likely I could use a Dragon (or other?) cam and FTV card with this box?

kaisersose77

watty wrote:

Yes, today maybe...

you have being saying that for the last 18 months or however long sky has being working with dreambox's etc. I have a sky ftv card and never had a sky digibox and never needed one, as the card updates fine on my dreambox. But you are right about it being a hobbyist solution. And most of them ppl would not have bought their dreambox to watch sky, so if it ever does stop working, they wont mind that much.

ps: rte teletext works fine with the dreambox, which is all i need and epg plugins can be downloaded which will give a full 7/14 day sky epg guide if you want it.

i read somewhere that the german package premiere's interactive services ( for sports etc) work fine with the dreambox, so if anyone was bothered they could make one for sky uk for sky news/sports interactive ( as i was messing around with it before with the bbc interactive, and it would only be a matter of pressing the green button on remote and providing links to the interactive channels - not proper sky interactive but it would do the job)

Zaphod

watty wrote:

Its the one thing you need to be ready to accept with dreamboxes.. there is flux in the software.. lots of stuff being added and if you chase releases, expect bugs here and there.

Unfortunately this doesn't only apply to Dreamboxes, but seems to becoming more and more common for 'non-hobbyist' receivers too. Companies no longer bother testing boxes for bugs, instead they just release them on the market and expect unsuspecting consumers to become beta-testers. And then you get the same bullsh*t response "we'll fix that in a later firmware update". Of course, if you have the misfortune of a power cut during the upgrade, then tough ("users upgrade firmware at their own risk"). Price is no indicator either - indeed the more expensive the box, the more bug ridden it seems to be.

There's a report on the current session of Dr Dish about the trouble one buyer had with a Pace HD box and the run-around they gave him.

JHMEG wrote:

So, is it likely I could use a Dragon (or other?) cam and FTV card with this box?

Yes, but you'll still need a digibox to update the card every 4-6 weeks.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054919512

watty

kaisersose77 wrote:

y
i read somewhere that the German package premiere's interactive services ( for sports etc) work fine with the dreambox, so if anyone was bothered they could make one for sky uk for sky news/sports interactive ( as i was messing around with it before with the bbc interactive, and it would only be a matter of pressing the green button on remote and providing links to the interactive channels - not proper sky interactive but it would do the job)

No. Sky use their own flavour of Thomson's proprietary "Open TV".

It's like Stocks & Shares. Yesterday's performance is no indication of future performance with a Sky Card. A Sky Digibox will automatically update SW to fix (or add) bugs and add features and will work with a Sky Card tomorrow.

kaisersose77

they probably would have done something to stop the cards working on non-sky box's if they could/cared ages ago, so cant see it changing anytime soon (well until they upgrade cards again). And the skyhd cards are meant to work to work with those dragon c*m's and non-sky hd receivers. But i'd say 99.99% of ppl havent a clue that you can use a non-digibox atm to watch sky and wouldnt be really bothered anyways.

JHMEG

kaisersose77: that's interesting and good to know! I thought I read somewhere that Sky cards could be updated in a Dreambox.

Would someone mind reading my post above about the Kaon box and commenting (ie regarding Dragon cam and FTV card)?

watty

I had to take back a Kaon as the motor control SW and User Interface was so buggy.

watty

kaisersose77 wrote:

they probably would have done something to stop the cards working on non-sky box's if they could/cared ages ago,

Not true. Depends on numbers of users.

Sky aim to have 50% of revenue from Interactive services. They would be seriously upset if non-Sky boxes became popular for Sky Pay TV.
That is the main reason they will not do an offical CAM unless EU forces them.

kaisersose77 wrote:

And the skyhd cards are meant to work to work with those dragon cam's and non-sky hd receivers. But i'd say 99.99% of ppl havent a clue that you can use a non-digibox atm to watch sky and wouldnt be really bothered anyways.

For most people it is too much hassle and too technical. It is a niche hobbyist solution. You want to hope it stays that way, so that Sky leaves you alone to enjoy it.

All the folks I know personally that have non-Sky boxes and/or PCs with sat cards and CAMs etc, all know you can do this but not one does. It is so much more easy to use a Sky Digital box for Sky, especially when you need one anyway if you have a Sky card.


I'm glad you appreciate it and have it working, but please don't promote it as a consumer option equivalent to a Sky Box.

I'm hoping that as Sky change to Sky+ as the minimum install, the recording restrictions on "other channels" and recording rental will be dropped. It is money for nothing and with out UTV, BBC3, BBC4 etc on EPG actually hurts Sky here. But the main market is UK and in UK no-one needs "other channels".

The ONLY VALID reason to bother messing around with CAMs and Smart Mouse with a Sky Card is for PVR for the Pay Channels. Unfortunately the main reason people have been buying Dreambox is either to use someone else's shared card or to share a card. That is the unpleasant reality and why (along with loss of Interactive sales) at some point Sky will make it "not work" when they deam that sales are getting compromised too much.

kaisersose77

thats what im saying, theres no point in using a dreambox etc for sky unless you have one already and even then it the pvr feature is the only advantage. But if you intend to spend a load of money on a dreambox, your better off with sky+. OP your better off buying a cheap dvb-t box thats confirmed to work the irish tests. It'll save you a lot of money.

Benolam

Look at the Technomate 4200. You can mix DTT and Sat channels in a single channel lineup and move through them seamlessly.

Also check the Bigsat 6500.

Neither has a CAM slot or PVR.

watty

Spend no more than 50 Euro on DTT till Ireland decides what it is doing... On Sat, either buy cheap or if expensive PVR, make sure it does BBC HD & other HD and has CAM slot.

JHMEG

In a nutshell would it be safe to say that I could get a KAON KTSC 570 (2xCI + DVB-S + DVB-T) combo, and a Dragon cam and have everything I require, but have to occassionally put the FTV card in a digibox?

That's the theory of it anyway?

watty

But not a Kaon. Poor quality and buggy software.