Help with diagnosis ~ Intermittent problem with '02 Bandit 600

Steffano2002

Good morning,

My bike is doing my head in...

I can't figure out what it is so I'm going to try and explain the symptoms as best I can.

Firstly, the bike usually works perfectly... HOWEVER, when it rains heavily or (as I found out yesterday evening and this morning) in foggy conditions, it acts up pretty badly. Indeed, in these conditions, the bike misfires badly as if I was running on 3 cylinders or as if I was running out of petrol.
It is obvious there is something wrong but this morning was the worse ever. The bike wouldn't even idle (unless I had the choke to the maximum) and if I tried to accelerate it would simply cut out! Weird thing is, if I switch it off and wait for 5 minutes or so it works perfectly again!

Now I think there could be 3 main culprits: the spark plugs, the fuel filter or the ignition leads/coil.

1) Spark plugs: could be... But if they were at fault, why would it be an intermittent problem which only happens in wet conditions?

2) Fuel filter: as above. But again, why only in wet conditions?

3) Ignition leads/coil: suspect number 1 as far as I'm concerned. If the coil or any of the leads are not properly insulated it would explain why the bike works perfectly in dry conditions and very badly in wet conditions.

Do you agree with the above? Am I missing something? Furthermore, I heard some Bandits suffered from electrical problems in wet conditions (can't remember where I read this though...). Does anybody know if my Bandit is having these particular problems?

Any help will be GREATLY appreciated!

delop

Air filter... i.e. fuel to air ratio...

Just stabbing in the Dark, And you know I think i have the same problem But not very often, I started to think it was dirty fuel at the bottom of the tank...

Steffano2002

delop wrote:

Air filter... i.e. fuel to air ratio...

Just stabbing in the Dark, And you know I think i have the same problem But not very often, I started to think it was dirty fuel at the bottom of the tank...

Absolutely correct! Completely forgot about this little culprit! I shall add him to the list of possible suspects!

Pigeon Reaper

Possibly Carb icing if it only happens on cold damp days. I'm not sure if the 02 bandit have carbs or not but it sounds like carb icing.

Steffano2002

Pigeon Reaper wrote:

Possibly Carb icing if it only happens on cold damp days. I'm not sure if the 02 bandit have carbs or not but it sounds like carb icing.

Possibly... However, why would did my bike work work perfectly for the first 5-10 minutes this morning THEN started messing up? The engine was warm when it was messing up and the carbs are right behind the cylinders so it would surprise me...

And it doesn't happen because it is cold. I think the problem is mostly the wet...

How much am I looking at if I change the spark plugs, fuel filter and air filter? Because if I change all 3 and still have a problem then I can pretty much conclude it's the ignition leads/coil meesing up!

Steffano2002

Actually, the more I read about Carb Icing the more I think that is what I experienced this morning and yesterday evening in these icy fog conditions... Here's what I found on Wikipedia:

Wikipedia wrote:

What Is It?
Carb Icing normally occurs at about 2-5 deg. C where there is a high relative humidity (freezing fog is usually ideal conditions). Water from the air condenses on the carburettor inlets and is frozen by the cold air being sucked in and freezes blocking the main jets. This will cause the engine to stutter and stall through fuel starvation. Once the heat of the engine filters through to the carbs the ice will melt and the engine will run.

The bike will splutter, cough and generally feel rough as old boots. Winding the throttle on will produce nothing, and the engine will sound very funny.

From about 2000 (J1 series ZX6R) onwards Kawasaki had the wisdom to fit carb heaters to most of their bikes for export. These heaters consist of a series of pipes running along the carburettor that carry warm water from the cooling system and subsequently warm the carb bodies just enough to prevent ice particles from forming and blocking the jets. These heaters will only work if the coolant filter is clean and therefore, it should be cleaned properly every year.

[edit]What To Do About It
If you don't have carb heaters a fuel additive such as an Isopropanol alcohol based additives (Silkolene Pro FST) seem to be fairly successful. I found that Redex helped on my 7R and some people recommend Super Unleaded petrol.

If you are riding in conditions likely to cause carb icing be careful around junctions and roundabouts where you could find yourself without engine power. Slowing right down (or stopping) and revving the engine can often get enough heat back into the carb bodies to clear the ice crystals that have formed inside.

So perhaps I have 2 disctinct problems here! In icy fog conditions I could be experiencing Carb Icing and when it rains heavily I could be having a totally different problem (faulty ignition leads/coil perhaps)!

Anybody here with Suzuki Bandits (or any other air cooled bikes) experience problems yesterday evening/this morning?

Pigeon Reaper

If you don't have the problem in summer when it rains it's probably carb icing. If it's all year round then it's likely to be electrical. Often if it rains and is around below 7C you can get carb icing. The Venturi effect causes the temp in carbs to drop.

Elfish

Steffano2002 wrote:

1) Spark plugs: could be... But if they were at fault, why would it be an intermittent problem which only happens in wet conditions?

Take them out and inspect. Unlikely to be your problem.

Steffano2002 wrote:

2) Fuel filter: as above. But again, why only in wet conditions?

Unlikely - replace it if you think so as its only a tenner, but again, no reason why it should be your filter acting up in the wet.

Steffano2002 wrote:

3) Ignition leads/coil: suspect number 1 as far as I'm concerned. If the coil or any of the leads are not properly insulated it would explain why the bike works perfectly in dry conditions and very badly in wet conditions.

Coil likely - seen ones before which give proper readings on primary and secondary but only fail after being in use for a few minutes and they 'heat up'. Do you have someone that you can swop your 2 coils with? Any cracks on the coils case?
Check your leads by using a window fluid sprayer and mist around your leads - do this in the dark and it might show up any elec breakdown path. Are all your leads secure and making good connection - if someone was rough with them, remake screw connections to be sure.

I'd be looking at coils first ....... swapout most effective diagnosis

Steffano2002

Elfish wrote:

Coil likely - seen ones before which give proper readings on primary and secondary but only fail after being in use for a few minutes and they 'heat up'. Do you have someone that you can swop your 2 coils with? Any cracks on the coils case?
Check your leads by using a window fluid sprayer and mist around your leads - do this in the dark and it might show up any elec breakdown path. Are all your leads secure and making good connection - if someone was rough with them, remake screw connections to be sure.

I'd be looking at coils first ....... swapout most effective diagnosis

Thank you for all this advice Elfish! Unfortunately swapping coils out with somebody else isn't really an option because I only know 1 other person who has a Bandit but he's just left the company so I won't be seeing him much no more... And anyway, I only have problems when it's p!ssing raining... Furthermore, I don't even have the tools to remove the gas tank...

Might as well start looking at how much this coil is going to set me back...

Steffano2002

Just rang the Priory (Official Suzuki Dealer) and they quoted me €300 + VAT for the coils and Leads...

spockety

300 euro on coils and leads? ooer.

If it's not carb icing I'll eat my hat.

Steffano2002

spockety wrote:

300 euro on coils and leads? ooer.

+ VAT!!! :mad:

spockety wrote:

If it's not carb icing I'll eat my hat.

I don't think you'll have to... I'm going to officially blame carb icing for what happened yesterday evening and this morning. HOWEVER, when it rains heavily (and I mean heavily) I get a similar problem which I am attributing to a faulty (or "improperly insulated") igintion coil/lead.

Steffano2002

Well, took me nearly an hour to get home this evening. I'm definitely suffering from the carb icing of death!
Bike started playing up after about 2km then simply wouldn't start for me no more. Waited for 15 minutes then tried again. Still terrible... And then finally it started working perfectly (I guess the carbs got warm enough in the end)!

Stopped in ScorttsBikes (Dorset Street) on the way home and they advised investing in carb heaters (apparently Suzuki makes them for the Bandit - Don't know why they don't fit them on all new bikes though!). They're ringing me back tomorrow with a price...

In the meantime, I guess leaving the bike outside at night uncovered is not helping so I'm going to invest in a bike cover (no access to a garage unfortunately). For tonight though, towels wrapped around the carbs will have to do...

All this is annoying me...

murphaph

I had baaaad carb icing this morning in that bloody freezing fog. It's the first time I've experienced it on the TDM but I have experienced it before on other bikes so knew immediately what it was (slowing down at junctions brings all the power back for a bit). Horrible feeling, no confidence in the bike but in fairness to the TDM it was as bad as it gets weather wise for carb icing.

The Doktor

Had the problems you are describing on 2 bikes in the past.
Bikes would run ok for about 10 mins, then would be like it wasnt running on all cylinders. The wetter it got the worse it got. If i stopped the bike for a few mins the heat of the engine would dry out the electrics and the bike would be ok for another few mins...
On both occassions it turned out to be plug caps. I just swapped the caps and leads and the problem went away.

Steffano2002

Oh lads! I'm so happy I'm not the only one having this problem! Don't get me wrong, I'm not happy you have/had problems but it cheers me up to see I'm not the only one suffering!

I'm just after wrapping the carbs in some towels so hopefully it won't be as bad tomorrow morning! Hopefully...

Pigeon Reaper

So any problems this morning? The SV has carb heaters as standard for Ireland but even this had some roughness yesterday and early this morning. Plug caps and leak and cause shorting in wet weather on some suzuki bikes. I normally seal them with coppergrease under the cap. It keeps the worst of the weather out. Try this on the bandit and see if it helps with the wet weather.

Steffano2002

Pigeon Reaper wrote:

So any problems this morning? The SV has carb heaters as standard for Ireland but even this had some roughness yesterday and early this morning. Plug caps and leak and cause shorting in wet weather on some suzuki bikes. I normally seal them with coppergrease under the cap. It keeps the worst of the weather out. Try this on the bandit and see if it helps with the wet weather.

Well, had problems again this morning but nowhere near as bad as yesterday thank God! I guess the towels wrapped around the carbs helped a bit!

Someone alreay told me about greasing the plug cabs so I might do that alright! I think I'll give the Priory a call about the carb heaters too...

Pigeon Reaper

This morning wasn't as damp as previous mornings this week so that would help the bike too.

SonOfPerdition

hey Steffano2002,
the bandit shouldn't suffer from carb icing, it should have carb heaters . . unless it's an import.

the best repository for bandit advice is the uk bandit owners group at http://www.sukbog.co.uk/

It used to be just a mailing list when i had one but seems to have evolved considerably. them lads will help you loads.

SOP

Steffano2002

SonOfPerdition wrote:

hey Steffano2002,
the bandit shouldn't suffer from carb icing, it should have carb heaters . . unless it's an import.

the best repository for bandit advice is the uk bandit owners group at http://www.sukbog.co.uk/

It used to be just a mailing list when i had one but seems to have evolved considerably. them lads will help you loads.

SOP

Well unfortunately it's an import... Most obvious sign being the beam blinding everybody I pass on the road so I get flashed a lot! :rolleyes:

Thanks for the info on the UK Bandit Owners Group though! I'll make sure to get in touch with these guys!

Hotblack Desiato

Steffano2002 wrote:

Well unfortunately it's an import... Most obvious sign being the beam blinding everybody I pass on the road so I get flashed a lot! :rolleyes:

If you bought it from a dealer, take it back and demand a UK/Irish spec headlamp, free of charge for parts and labour.
It is illegal to sell a motor vehicle in an unroadworthy condition and lights dipping the wrong way are not legal (or safe) here.
You could (if the Gardai gave a crap about road safety) be charged with driving a defective vehicle.

Steffano2002

ninja900 wrote:

If you bought it from a dealer, take it back and demand a UK/Irish spec headlamp, free of charge for parts and labour.
It is illegal to sell a motor vehicle in an unroadworthy condition and lights dipping the wrong way are not legal (or safe) here.
You could (if the Gardai gave a crap about road safety) be charged with driving a defective vehicle.

I did indeed buy it from a dealer in Wexford. Might give him a buzz... I agree with you though, he did sell me an "unraodworthy" vehicle when you think about it!

SonOfPerdition

Steffano2002 wrote:

Thanks for the info on the UK Bandit Owners Group though! I'll make sure to get in touch with these guys!

you're welcome, they are a mine of information.
My policy when i buy any bike or car is to find an online owners group and monitor it regularly. It's amazing the difference this makes to the ownership experience.

let us know how you get on with it.