Did I cock up this hand?

DeVore

This hand happened last night in the Fitz and I think I played it fine but its one of those cash hands I'm not sure about.

I'm at the main table of the NLH and most have deep stacks. I have few reads on my table having just moved here but I know a few from playing with them on the way here. I have been having a fluctuating night but mostly battling to make some scratch. I've taken 140 up to 300 now by three-street bluffing a loose chinese guy but I didnt show it. He missed his draw (he said, I believe him). He's on tilt a bit because everyone seems to hit their draws against him and he has verbally complained once already about "chasers".

I'm one off the button and I have two black tens. Its limped to me and I pot it to 12. I get three callers including a moderately tight and reasonably math-smart player to my left and the chinese guy in the SB.

The flop comes JT9 with two clubs. I dunno if I hate or love this flop. Its checked to me and I decide that I cant let this pass without betting it. I could be walking into KQ but I could allow a flush/straight draw to get a free card. I pot it to 50, get a considered call from my left and an immediate reraise all in from the chinese guy for 220. Its folded back to me.

So, I have one player to act after me with about 150 behind, I have 250 behind myself. My reads are:
1. If I call I dont think my opponent to my left will call.

2. The chinese guy isnt a loon. He isnt gambling here. He definitely has something and the chances of a squeeze play are small. Its possible but I dont think so.

My instincts tell me chinese guy is on a straight (KQ, 78), 99 (unlikely) , JJ (very very unlikely, he'd have reraised me preflop), or a combo draw like AQc.

My strongest feeling is that he has KQ and is desperately trying to kill the flush outs. I can't see any way of dropping this hand, nor would I want to. Theres 200 in the pot and its 170 more for me. My maths tells me I'm at worst 35% likely to win the pot so I call.

He had Q8c, worst possible hand to be up against and it held. I think if he had shown me his cards I would still have called.

Adding in the other variables and unknowns I would consider this a reasonably auto call, even though I dont like the situation.

My question is, while the final call seems mathematically sound, you can easily get yourself to mathematically sound situations by playing like a goombah. Could/should I have played this hand differently earlier on? (please, no results based reasoning ... thanks )

DeV.

robinlacey

didnt read the results yet,but you played it perfectly,and this is an instacall

robinlacey

DeVore wrote:

The flop comes JT9 with two clubs. I dunno if I hate or love this flop.

DeV.

you love it
just make sure you get as much as you can in on the flop,you're probably ahead here but if you're behind you want the money to go in on the flop while your equity is still very good....

DeVore

robinlacey wrote:

you love it
just make sure you get as much as you can in on the flop,you're probably ahead here but if you're behind you want the money to go in on the flop while your equity is still very good....

Ok, thats exactly what I was thinking. I actually rather getting the cash in now then flat called in two spots and then raised 170 on a rag or club turn.
Thanks Robin.... I've been running so bad on huge hands and draws lately that I'm getting to that point where you start to think... am I beating my head off a wall here? is it me, am I doing something wrong?

DeV.

Solksjaer

Well if you don't mind getting a reply from a rockish type (in cash games only) I would definitely call here
To fold a set on is one of the most difficult things to do in poker and particularly in a cash game. I usually walk away up when I play cash games but here I'd be in a fair bit of jeopardy but fairly happy with my decision to call.

Hectorjelly

I was hoping I could just leave a one word yes reply, but no I would never fold there.

DeVore

I dont think I'm ever considering a fold here unless he actually SHOWS me JJ.

DeV.

Samba

Hectorjelly wrote:

I was hoping I could just leave a one word yes reply, but no I would never fold there.

I clicked on the thread for that very reason.

standard call, horrible flop for a set!

DeVore

Really I dont know what I'm asking for here (except perhaps a *hug* ). The only other way it could be played would be to check-call the flop turn and river which seems so horribly passive I dont think I could do it.
There really is no other way to play this hand, is there?

DeV.

Samba

DeVore wrote:

Really I dont know what I'm asking for here (except perhaps a *hug* ). The only other way it could be played would be to check-call the flop turn and river which seems so horribly passive I dont think I could do it.
There really is no other way to play this hand, is there?

DeV.

you always have your option of folding

Solksjaer

So now everyone agrees with your play, get back in there and lose the rest of your money

Great documentary ' world in action' on years ago about a pro gamblers life. (horses etc) His quote which I like was, when the luck turns agianst you , lower the stakes and ride it out with as little a hit as possible, never move up chasing losses. I think it's the best gambling advice I've heard.

:eek: I forgot poker isn't gambling.....but the logic should still apply.

valor

you played the hand perfectly, even considering folding here is bad

Ste05

Never fold sets and you'll seldomly go wrong.

Atlas_IRL

im potting this every time

Goodluck2me

would you still call if he shows KQ? we have odds to hit yes?

cardshark202

Easy call. Bad beat sticky Tom, you should know better.:rolleyes:

DeVore

I can do simple maths CS. I know that at worse I am 35% to win this hand. I know I'm being asked for less then the pot. This call is perfectly fine, even if he shows me KQc.

That wasnt my point nor my question as you can see from a close reading of the OP. I just wondered if there was any BETTER way to play this hand to improve the EV of this entire hand. It seems I was right to think there isnt.

(sometimes I over play draws, pot raise where perhaps discretion is the better part of valour, I wanted a sanity check that I'm not mad preflop or on flop, but apologies for having wasted 2 seconds of your brain-the-size-of-a-planet, us mortals are still muddling our way through learning the game from each other.)
edit: :rolleyes: <--smiley to make it all happy-cuddles.

DeV.

Daithio

It's just one of those situations where the money's going in, you're beat, and there's nothing you can do about it. UL.

careca

Question for ye. Nearly the same hand came up for me, couple of weeks ago in Fitz. Flop J89 with two clubs and I had JJ. On this occasion I check raised on the flop. It didn't matter that much as all the money went in on the turn (Ks). He had K10.

The question is, by check raising I got folding equity (I think), but do I want folding equity in this spot ? (Heres your chance for a one word answer )

cardshark202

careca wrote:

The question is, by check raising I got folding equity (I think), but do I want folding equity in this spot ? (Heres your chance for a one word answer )

God no! You have top set dude. You want callers! You want to play an enormous pot.

Bandana boy

careca wrote:

Question for ye. Nearly the same hand came up for me, couple of weeks ago in Fitz. Flop J89 with two clubs and I had JJ. On this occasion I check raised on the flop. It didn't matter that much as all the money went in on the turn (Ks). He had K10.

The question is, by check raising I got folding equity (I think), but do I want folding equity in this spot ? (Heres your chance for a one word answer )

??
Fold equity means you get a hand your behind to fold in this case the only hand your behind that isnt the nuts is 7t and i am pretty sure he isnt folding so no you dont have fold equity and with top set you shouldnt be looking for fold equity

If you have AQclubs then a check raise with a reasonably strong hand will get you fold equity as you might get made pairs to fold

careca

Bandana boy wrote:

??
Fold equity means you get a hand your behind to fold in this case the only hand your behind that isnt the nuts is 7t and i am pretty sure he isnt folding so no you dont have fold equity and with top set you shouldnt be looking for fold equity

If you have AQclubs then a check raise with a reasonably strong hand will get you fold equity as you might get made pairs to fold

ok, well explained.

so its a given that I want to play a big pot with this hand (and sorry for hogging your thread Dev, but they are similar) , now what is the best way to play a big pot. in my case I was UTG. If I had bet pot, I would have got called, not reraised and may not have received a call on a turn bet. Therefore is check raising a better option in this spot or am I in danger of giving a free card. as it turns out I got all my stack in, but this is results based. how do you play a set in that situation, UTG ?

Samba

careca wrote:

ok, well explained.

so its a given that I want to play a big pot with this hand (and sorry for hogging your thread Dev, but they are similar) , now what is the best way to play a big pot. in my case I was UTG. If I had bet pot, I would have got called, not reraised and may not have received a call on a turn bet. Therefore is check raising a better option in this spot or am I in danger of giving a free card. as it turns out I got all my stack in, but this is results based. how do you play a set in that situation, UTG ?

I usually speak telekineticly to the dealer to PAIR THE BOARD!

phantom_lord

Samba wrote:

I usually speak telekineticly to the dealer to PAIR THE BOARD!

Or get mick to deal. He says it for you...

DeVore

You aint hogging the thread careca, in fact this is more the kind of discussion I wanted to provoke (for my own education).

My thinking on my betting on the flop is pretty simple ABC poker:
1. I'm unlucky if I find the made straight and I have outs anyway.
2. There are quite a number of draws that beat my hand and I dont want to risk giving them a free card to improve to beat me. I'm not strong enough to slow play this (not by a long long shot).
3. So I should charge them for those draws, so I bet.

I think if I slow play it and get raised and reraised I could get away from it but only through *bad* play that will cost me money over the long term (and probably not all that long a term ).

DeV.