In search of Jiu-jitsu

MaeveD

An article from graciemag.com.... what do you think?

Part 1
http://www.graciemag.com/?c=152&a=3020

Part 2
http://www.graciemag.com/?c=152&a=3021

Roper

Some good points. The thrust seems to be, "don't let the sport ruin the art". Thats a good point- Judo is the obvious marker for a sport that has developed the art, whereas a lot of other MAs have been transformed into a non-applicable art by their competition format.

My take is that BJJ competition is limited enough rules-wise so that the sport will only be beneficial.

What did you think yourself Maeve?

john kavanagh

i think its an individual thing as to what the 'art' is. for me the 'art' is the application of the delivery system

when i see a smaller guy string together a number of techniques culminating in the submission of a much bigger, stronger opponent - thats the 'art' to me.

for others the 'art' is being able to demonstrate a couple of hundred various techniques on compliant partners, knowing how to spell 'jiu jitsu' the 'ancient' way, tracing lineage, knowing some obscure historical facts about battleground tactics etc...

gymrabbit

Reads like another Sport versus Martial Art nonsense artical.

I was reading an article by Eddie Bravo and he was saying "don't worship the gi, it's only a piece of cloth". I tend to agree with him.

pearsquasher

If "the 'art' is the application of the delivery system" then how is "art" different to "skill"?

Gorman

I'd agree to a certain extent about some of the self defence applications getting lost in sport BJJ. For example it’s very unlikely that a BJJ player will try to put a bouncers head lock on you. So if you only rolled with other sports BJJ players you would be unlikely to encounter these type of situations, however if you're rolling with the bigger new lads that come to classes, you'll almost be certain to be put in some kind of head lock!

From my limited experience, the toughest people to do well against are
1)MMA guys
2)Sports BJJ guys
3)Wrestlers
4)Judo guys
5)Kickboxers

The common thing is they all will have lots of competition experience, and the more sports experience they have the tougher they will be. The benefits of combat sports far outweigh the negatives.
You may be able to apply lots of great techniques on you're friends at the club, but applying them in competition, under pressure is another thing.
Without sports competition, it's very hard to find that pressure.

astfgl

It starts off with a good point basically saying that if you train always for competitions, then you might forget that on the street their are no rules, no-ones going to stop your opponent from neck cranking, attacking the fingers etc.
Fine, thats true, but then it starts this rant about how the UFC and Pride is actually ruining everyones self defense because of these rules and in real life you wouldnt have gloves and their are no rests etc. So what, in real life someone can shoot you, how does jiu-jitsu stop that? (bullet-proof gis maybe).
The author complains that some MMA fighters are specialists in a "take down+stall from the top and punch for points" game. What, isn't getting a takedown and holding a position while striking a good thing in a street fight?

Lastly he tells us we should all train in the gi (for self-defense) because it is the closest thing to "real clothes" we can wear and not really damage becuase its so strong. Well I'm a student and I carry a schoolbag a lot of the time, (even if just shopping as I don't like carrying shopping bags), so should I train with a bag on my back?. Should women train wearing handbags or carrying shopping bags?. Should people who wear glasses train while wearing them? Should new mothers train while holding dolls to represent their babies?
There's reality, and then there's reality.

john kavanagh

pearsquasher wrote:

If "the 'art' is the application of the delivery system" then how is "art" different to "skill"?

i guess for me, there is no difference - a skillful player is like a great artist to me . i liked renzo gracie's description of a good fight at the end of the '60 mins' program posted up here. something like a good fight will make the most impressive ballet look awkward and uncoordinated.

personally i just don't see anything artistic or impressive about demo'ing a bunch of techniques against compliant partners.

i wonder what is other peoples definition of 'art' in martial art?

spiral

The best way I heard it explained John was very similar to what you said .

That naturally without any training the larger and stronger overcome the smaller and weaker and that therefore the ''art '' is following the principles that will allow the smaller and weaker to overcome (or at least succesfully defend against) the larger and stronger.

MaeveD

Roper wrote:

Some good points. The thrust seems to be, "don't let the sport ruin the art". Thats a good point- Judo is the obvious marker for a sport that has developed the art, whereas a lot of other MAs have been transformed into a non-applicable art by their competition format.

My take is that BJJ competition is limited enough rules-wise so that the sport will only be beneficial.

What did you think yourself Maeve?

I think theres some pretty good points in there too and I agree with a lot of it!

I'm not into competition myself but I've always enjoyed watching bjj/mma competition...

I train in a club that doesn't concentrate on competition. I was in the states training recently and although one of the clubs is very successful in competition (both bjj & mma) with lots of black belts. They still teach the basic bjj self defence techniques all the time... as do the other clubs we visited, but this is because they're all still very closely attached to the Gracies.

but if the Gracies wanted to keep bjj as sd... then I guess they shouldn't have started challanging people and kicking their asses...

Colm_OReilly

How many escapes to a bouncer's headlock do I know? Probably three, and they string together depending on what he does.

So knowing more techniques is better and more art like? Mmmm, I'd like some skill instead of knowing more techniques. Anyone who trains with me knows I'm not a fan of techniques, period. Keep putting yourself in that situation and change the variables, eventually you'll figure out the skill. (see, I can be a fan of science too!)

Semantics rant: "minimum effort for maximum efficiency" should read "minimum effort for maximum effect" as efficiency is the ability to accomplish something with the least amount of resources or 'effort'. In a sports context, it's called skill.

Overall I reckon there's a commercial interest for him in writing the article. Either he wanted something that would cause debate in mma/bjj circles or he wants to differentiate himself from the other bjj schools in his market.

Valmont

Colm_OReilly wrote:

Anyone who trains with me knows I'm not a fan of techniques, period. Keep putting yourself in that situation and change the variables, eventually you'll figure out the skill

How do you mean you're not a fan of techniques? Do you mainly focus on positions? I'm confused.



I think it is important to point out that the best competition nogi grapplers in the world all train with the gi (not all the time though)