Jack be nimble, Jack be quick, jack jump over the candlestick

fuzzbox

2/4 6-max nlhe

History with villain - shortly previously

He opens utg, I reraise with JJ, flop AJxr he checks, I bet 55 into 75, he makes it 150 to play, I call and he shoves the turn with AJo and MHIG

Notably - he opened utg with AJo and called a reraise oop

Eff stacks 600

Preflop
2 limpers, and my pal makes it 12 in the SB, I make it 36 in the BB with JJ. limpers fold, and my pal calls

Flop (75)
874r
he check, I bet 55, and he check/minraises me *sigh*. Your move?

cardshark202

Agh aghagh I hate that ****. Call. Not sure what to do on turn though. I guess get it all in?

fuzzbox

cardshark202 wrote:

Agh aghagh I hate that ****. Call. Not sure what to do on turn though. I guess get it all in?

I thought very seriously about checking the flop.
What about that?

DeadParrot

fold like a little girl? in my limited experience check-minraise = set.
Can you see him calling the raise preflop with connectors/A8,A7?
Overpair or set....call and pray for a J , Im passing.

cardshark202

fuzzbox wrote:

I thought very seriously about checking the flop.
What about that?

yep flop check is good from time to time but against this guy who is clearly a bit donkish, betting is better.

bubbleking

im probably wrong but this is basically screaming i have a set.

BigCityBanker

Is he on a draw and minraised to slow you down and try to induce you to check the turn and give him a free card? Not saying this is what he has done - im just putting the idea out there?

jimbling

BigCityBanker wrote:

Is he on a draw and minraised to slow you down and try to induce you to check the turn and give him a free card? Not saying this is what he has done - im just putting the idea out there?

I have actually noticed people doing that lately. I mean most people know how much the min raise is loathed and feared. I have seen it used a few times now to slow aggressive betters down. and it usually works. I wonder does it have any merit?

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

bubbleking

jimbling wrote:

I have actually noticed people doing that lately. I mean most people know how much the min raise is loathed and feared. I have seen it used a few times now to slow aggressive betters down. and it usually works. I wonder does it have any merit?

depends who does it if a relatively new/bad player does it id probably fold.

i never seen a decent payer check-minraise or minraise at all so if they did it would just confuse the sh!t outta me.

BigCityBanker

jimbling wrote:

I have actually noticed people doing that lately. I mean most people know how much the min raise is loathed and feared. I have seen it used a few times now to slow aggressive betters down. and it usually works. I wonder does it have any merit?

I wonder the same myself and hence I floated it on a thread started by Fuzz as I was likely to get the most informed responses on it.

accensi0n

"jack flash jumped over the candlestick"

jimbling

bubbleking wrote:

depends who does it if a relatively new/bad player does it id probably fold.

i never seen a decent payer check-minraise or minraise at all so if they did it would just confuse the sh!t outta me.

no... a decent player is very unlikely to do it.

fuzzbox

accensi0n wrote:

"jack flash jumped over the candlestick"

whatever about jumped, you are soooo wrong about jack flash

fuzzbox

Results:

I laid it down. Its true, I laid down an overpair. I congratulated myself with a cold shower using a brillo pad as a sponge.

cardshark202

I don't think we have enough info to lay this down here. I don't like it. You nit.

jimbling

LuckyLloyd wrote:

From what I've seen playing cash on Stars the last couple of weeks - the check min raise means that you are toast.

Having said that, I will always call it (the odds you get, real and implied are massive) - as I love the odd time when I actually hit hard on the next street and stack their donkey ass.

So, call and check / fold any turn that doesn't have a J.

this description is the exact reason why actually performing a min-raise may be beneficial. :eek:
If you are drawing to an aggressive player, who is of the mindset of luckyloyd here then there is two things you gain from the min-raise.
Firstly, you will probably gain the free card* in the next round. You also gain the possibility of pushing him off the hand quiet easily in later rounds if you don't hit your draw. And if you do hit you're draw you can probably make more money as this player will have put you on a hand already. So if he hits, and he thinks he has your "set" beaten you can stack him easily.


Note: I have never tried this, so I am not sure how difficult it would be to implement, or if in fact it would be EV at all. Its worth considering though.
You would need a good read on your opponent, and your opponent must have a certain mindset about you as well (i.e. think that you are a pretty average player). And secondly, it is something you can only use sparingly. if spotted it will be something that's noted against you by average to decent players very quickly.


???????



*its not actually free since you are paying for it via the minraise.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

cardshark202

Its hard to assign villain a range here, maybe it is a set or something. Having thought about it more I prefer to call the raise and fold to a big turn bet. I would try call him down if he bets small. Ignore all my previous posts in this thread.

phantom_lord

I'd call, see what happens on the turn, fold to a big bet, otherwise call him down.

phantom_lord

I min raised with a set the other night in the fitz for the first time ever
it wasn't a check/mr, and it was for specfic reason but I still felt dirty afterwards.

valor

I would call here and fold to a strong turn bet.

I think folding the flop is reasonable too

fuzzbox

cardshark202 wrote:

Its hard to assign villain a range here, maybe it is a set or something. Having thought about it more I prefer to call the raise and fold to a big turn bet. I would try call him down if he bets small. Ignore all my previous posts in this thread.

Well he raised of of SB, ok based on the 1 previous hand that I have, he certainly has moronicity in his makeup, but he still raised from the SB, then I reraised the SB raise from the BB. This represents great strength (I did consider calling, but the AJo hand inspired my reraise). And he *still* Check/minraise me. I cant see how he expects me to fold, as surely he expects me to have a big pair.

I think his range has to include AA/KK/QQ/JJ/TT/99/88/77/44. With far more weight given to AA/KK/QQ.

He may not have a set, but I am behind his range assuming he is not a total spewtard and will stack off here with 89 or similar.

The last time he c/r me he had top two pair, so I cant assume that he CR light.

So discretion being the better part of valour, I folded, and wished I had checked the flop.

robinlacey

i would call and fold to any significant turn bet
having said this,i think whether he insta-minraised or thought about it and then minraised makes a difference,in general i would be much more wary of the latter...

cardshark202

oooooooops. totally misread the action somehow

I like a fold more now though I would still call myself

opr

I know it is easy in hysight but i really like your idea of checking behind on the flop i don't see what we gain from betting.

Question - If the villian had bet the flop ? Whats your move ?

If you call would you call a turn bet on a blank turn ?

Thanks
Opr

robinlacey

i think checking behind on the flop is grand sometimes,but i don't think it's a great solution that would have made the hand much easier or anything....

but if he bets,then yeah,you usually have to call the flop and the turn

opr

robinlacey wrote:

i think checking behind on the flop is grand sometimes,but i don't think it's a great solution that would have made the hand much easier or anything....

but if he bets,then yeah,you usually have to call the flop and the turn

So if villian has us crushed on the flop here by C/R he helps narrow his range significantly and gives us the best chance to get away from the hand ?

Opr

phantom_lord

I forgot he raised from the sb. :rolleyes:

Yeah check behind seems good. And I much prefer your fold than calling him down.

fuzzbox

cardshark202 wrote:

oooooooops. totally misread the action somehow

I like a fold more now though I would still call myself

How many times have you changed your mind in this thread?

robinlacey

i don't feel his flop check minraise narrows his range sufficiently that we can fold to a minraise on the flop,with an overpair and deep stacks...
i think a turn bet,unless its around the same size as the flop bet,does mean we should fold...

Goodluck2me

we have to bet the flop. if AKQ comes on the turn we cant like it. i dont think checking behind should be the default plan i mostly bet this flop.

valor

we dont have to bet this flop at all

betting is fine, but so is checking

there will not be 3 streets of value here

Hectorjelly

I think preflop you should just call and not reraise. a) you know hes going to call b) you have the exact same hand as last time you reraised him

fuzzbox

Hectorjelly wrote:

I think preflop you should just call and not reraise. a) you know hes going to call b) you have the exact same hand as last time you reraised him

I did consider calling, but there were two limpers already, he only made it 12 to go, and he has already shown a penchant for calling reraises with unsuited big-card hands that JJ dominates.

Reraising to isolate, in position, is surely a good move here, do you agree?

cardshark202

fuzzbox wrote:

How many times have you changed your mind in this thread?

ha yeah i've been donk-posting all day. I have finally settled upon the line line of calling the min-raise and any subsequent smallish bets on further streets.

fuzzbox

cardshark202 wrote:

ha yeah i've been donk-posting all day. I have finally settled upon the line line of calling the min-raise and any subsequent smallish bets on further streets.

Pot if I call = 285
approx 140 each in there, so remaining stacks = 460.

Turn - he leads ... ? 140 (aka half pot)?
I ? call ?

Pot on river 570
Remaing stacks 300

He shoves for half pot.

What sort of smallish bets do you mean?

cardshark202

hmmm.... good points again. Check the flop!:)
I would fold to that sort of bet on the turn, but not if he bets like 80.

Ok the preflop action was different but this is what I've been up against recently when facing the check-minraise

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

saw flop|saw showdown

BB ($110)
UTG ($114.60) weak idiot
MP ($567.15) Terrible loose semi-aggro donk
Hero ($204.80)
SB ($191)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 6, 7.
UTG calls $2, MP raises to $8, 1 fold, Hero calls $8, UTG calls $6.

Flop: ($27) 3, 7, 2(3 players)
UTG checks, MP checks, Hero bets $16, UTG raises to $32, MP folds, Hero raises to $196.8, UTG calls $74.60 (All-In).

Turn: ($330.40) 5(2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($330.40) 8(2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $330.40

Results in white below:
UTG has 9d 9s (one pair, nines).
Hero has 6h 7h (one pair, sevens).
Outcome: UTG wins $240.20. Hero wins $90.20.

Goodluck2me

valor wrote:

we dont have to bet this flop at all

betting is fine, but so is checking

there will not be 3 streets of value here

there will be 0 streets of value if a) we check the whole way down or b) we check and A/K/Q pops up on turn/river.