5/10 Turn Line Please

ianmc38 · 19-12-2006 9:47am #1

Stars 5/10 HE

I've been playing tag. 250 hands into the session. Table is tough enough. All solid regulars.

I open for 40 in MP with 22.

Only the button calls.

Flop (95)

Ah Kd 6s

I lead for 60. Button thinks and calls.

Turn (215)

2c

Some notes on button. He has called lots of my preflop raises in position, likes to float and has taken lots of small pots off me postflop.

He probably raises the flop with an ace, so his most likely holdings are a pocket pair, a king or air.

What's a good turn line?

Edit: Effective stacks of 1200 on the turn.

eoghan104 · 19-12-2006 10:13am

Stacks?

LuckyLloyd · 19-12-2006 10:19am

This post has been deleted.

fuzzbox · 19-12-2006 10:20am

If he would raise the flop with an Ace AND he is aggro, then check/call turn and maybe even check/raise river if he is really pushy.

Failling that a check/raise is ok here.

I usually just bet though.

fuzzbox · 19-12-2006 10:21am

LuckyLloyd wrote:

S
Therefore, I think you can check - call and value bet the river.

This is a very transparent line.

eoghan104 · 19-12-2006 10:31am

fuzzbox wrote:

This is a very transparent line.

Assuming that you are both quite deep I still lead out here for maybe 2/3 of the pot and hope for it to look like a double barrelled bluff.

I think Check raising here gets him to fold any hand that you beat.

cardshark202 · 19-12-2006 10:34am

I like a 1/2-2/3 pot bet here. It might induce a re-raise and its a very dry board.

On a side note, don't stay at the table if its tough and full of solid regs obviously. That could be your biggest mistake.

ianmc38 · 19-12-2006 10:36am

cardshark202 wrote:

On a side note, don't stay at the table if its tough and full of solid regs obviously. That could be your biggest mistake.

It's hard to find a 5/10 table on Stars without solid regulars. I was tilting pretty bad too so I didnt care too much about the table.

fuzzbox · 19-12-2006 10:38am

ianmc38 wrote:

It's hard to find a 5/10 table on Stars without solid regulars. I was tilting pretty bad too so I didnt care too much about the table.

An even better reason to stay on a table full of tough regs !! :-).

jimbling · 19-12-2006 10:40am

ianmc38 wrote:

It's hard to find a 5/10 table on Stars without solid regulars. I was tilting pretty bad too so I didnt care too much about the table.

did they know you were tilting???
if so, id overbet the turn.

ianmc38 · 19-12-2006 10:48am

jimbling wrote:

did they know you were tilting???
if so, id overbet the turn.

They'd have no reason to think i was tilting. My stats over the session were 24/8/3.2, so pretty much in line with my normal stats.

I'd lost 150 BBs on another table with set over set when all-in on a 7 high flop (i had 77) and the other guy hit a ten on the river. I'd also donked off 2 buyins at a lower stake table by retardedly slowplaying against a tight player who wont put in more money unless he's ahead of me.

All of these problems stem from playing straight after working in an office all day.

bubbleking · 19-12-2006 11:04am

i would check-raise the turn and expect to take it down there and then.

if you get called id either value bet the river or check-call.

LuckyLloyd · 19-12-2006 11:04am

This post has been deleted.

eoghan104 · 19-12-2006 11:12am

I dont like this line at all. If you check raise and hes any good he has to put you on at least AK so if he calls you are definatley behind and have to check fold the river.

Any results?

fuzzbox · 19-12-2006 11:19am

eoghan104 wrote:

I dont like this line at all. If you check raise and hes any good he has to put you on at least AK so if he calls you are definatley behind and have to check fold the river.

Any results?

If he is floating you a lot, then you have to check/raise him sometimes to get him to lay off a little. This is a good spot to do it.
If you always dble barrel your good hands, then its easy to float you, so sometimes you check/call or check/raise with a good strong hand.

Its hard for him to have a hand he will stack off with here in any case (maybe AK), so cr lets him bluff a little and maybe stack of with AK.

check/call and cr river is a super duper line if you have the heart for it.

jimbling · 19-12-2006 11:20am

ianmc38 wrote:

They'd have no reason to think i was tilting. My stats over the session were 24/8/3.2, so pretty much in line with my normal stats.

I'd lost 150 BBs on another table with set over set when all-in on a 7 high flop (i had 77) and the other guy hit a ten on the river. I'd also donked off 2 buyins at a lower stake table by retardedly slowplaying against a tight player who wont put in more money unless he's ahead of me.

All of these problems stem from playing straight after working in an office all day.

been there, done that, bought the T-Shirt.

I agree with eoghan here, I don't like a check raise at all.
is the 3.2 your bb/100 or your pfa??
if its you pfa, then I would definitely lead out again.
perhaps just over 1/2 pot, or 2/3 pot. Tempt him to try and push you off. If he folds fair enough, but its a much better line to try and get more chips from him.

cardshark202 · 19-12-2006 11:23am

fuzzbox wrote:

check/call and cr river is a super duper line if you have the heart for it.

Yeah can be a nice line but I think if he bets turn and river he has either a bluff or 66, maybe AK.
I like a weak lead on turn here and maybe a check-raise on the river.

bubbleking · 19-12-2006 11:29am

fuzzbox wrote:

If he is floating you a lot, then you have to check/raise him sometimes to get him to lay off a little. This is a good spot to do it.
If you always dble barrel your good hands, then its easy to float you, so sometimes you check/call or check/raise with a good strong hand.

Its hard for him to have a hand he will stack off with here in any case (maybe AK), so cr lets him bluff a little and maybe stack of with AK.

check/call and cr river is a super duper line if you have the heart for it.

what do you mean by floating??

eoghan104 · 19-12-2006 11:29am

fuzzbox wrote:

If he is floating you a lot, then you have to check/raise him sometimes to get him to lay off a little. This is a good spot to do it.
If you always dble barrel your good hands, then its easy to float you, so sometimes you check/call or check/raise with a good strong hand.

Its hard for him to have a hand he will stack off with here in any case (maybe AK), so cr lets him bluff a little and maybe stack of with AK.

check/call and cr river is a super duper line if you have the heart for it.

I agree with alot of what your saying here but i supose it comes down to how greedy you want to be.

If we decide to check were almost guaranteed to get a bet out of the villain but were also guaranteed a raise then is going to finish the hand.

However if we bet out were taking a chance that we will end the hand there but we also have a chance of getting a bigger bet possibly even a push out of the villain with a big A or AK which are both hands he folds to a check raise.

eoghan104 · 19-12-2006 11:30am

bubbleking wrote:

what do you mean by floating??

calling with air on the flop to take you off the hand on the turn.

ianmc38 · 19-12-2006 11:31am

bubbleking wrote:

what do you mean by floating??

Calling a bet on the flop with the intention of taking down the pot on a later street (mostly while having nothing)

bubbleking · 19-12-2006 11:34am

eoghan104 wrote:

I agree with alot of what your saying here but i supose it comes down to how greedy you want to be.

If we decide to check were almost guaranteed to get a bet out of the villain but were also guaranteed a raise then is going to finish the hand.

However if we bet out were taking a chance that we will end the hand there but we also have a chance of getting a bigger bet possibly even a push out of the villain with a big A or AK which are both hands he folds to a check raise.

very hard to fold AK on that board

eoghan104 · 19-12-2006 11:46am

bubbleking wrote:

very hard to fold AK on that board

What could he put you on if you check raise the turn that AK is ahead of?

Ian said hed been playing LAG and the rest of the table are good so youd have to put him on a set at this stage after the raise preflop and all. The best the villain could hope for is a split with AK.

Still no stack sizes Ian!!!!

5starpool · 19-12-2006 11:53am

eoghan104 wrote:

Still no stack sizes Ian!!!!

Read closer, twas edited to say effective stack sizes of 1200 on the turn.

Rnger · 19-12-2006 12:13pm

check/call the turn and check-raise the river... i love checking the river with strong hands

Imposter · 19-12-2006 12:25pm

What's your normal turn bet if you bet?
Do you check the turn here often (with or without a hand)?

I'm betting out about 120-150 at this on the turn. You've got to assume you're ahead here and I personally think I get more money out of a player if I bet here. Sure they fold quite a bit but when they raise you get more out of it. You could also be beaten here too but you can only guess at how often an opponent is likely to slowplay AA, KK (and maybe AK) in this situation.

It really depends on your style of play though. Have you been betting the turn a lot, have you been checking much here, what are your bet sizes normally like, how far is the opponent likely to go when trying to float etc etc..

ocallagh · 19-12-2006 12:36pm

fuzzbox wrote:

Failling that a check/raise is ok here.

that's twice in a week fuzz:eek:

Ian I think a 1/2 pot bet is fine as cardshark suggested. If he's gonna try and take you off the hand then lets make it expensive for him. Also, he might just have an ace which would also be good for us.

ianmc38 · 19-12-2006 1:08pm

cardshark202 wrote:

I like a weak lead on turn here and maybe a check-raise on the river.

That was exactly the line I went for. I bet just under half pot and he folded pretty quick.

I think check call turn and check raise river or check-check, check raise river is the best line in the hand. I think checking both turn and river are probably the only way he puts more money in the pot. I was pretty anooyed after the hand as well.

jimbling · 19-12-2006 1:44pm

ianmc38 wrote:

That was exactly the line I went for. I bet just under half pot and he folded pretty quick.

I think check call turn and check raise river or check-check, check raise river is the best line in the hand. I think checking both turn and river are probably the only way he puts more money in the pot. I was pretty anooyed after the hand as well.

you may have gotten one more bet out of him if you check-raised either the turn or the river. if you check-call the turn and check the river he is not betting again. if you check-raise either he is folding. So a max of one bet was what you would gain via that play.

I think the way you played it was the best line*.... your judgement now looks to be results based.

*Although I think the lead bet was too weak. Because of you're aggression, betting weakly looks like a trap. somewhere between1/2 and 2/3 the pot would have been better. This obviously depends on what you normally bet in these situations.

ianmc38 · 19-12-2006 1:49pm

jimbling wrote:

you may have gotten one more bet out of him if you check-raised either the turn or the river. if you check-call the turn and check the river he is not betting again. if you check-raise either he is folding. So a max of one bet was what you would gain via that play.

I think the way you played it was the best line*.... your judgement now looks to be results based.

I dont think so. I've been playing aggressively postflop (3+ is generally quite aggro, though sometimes I run at 8+). Weak lead looks strong. I think I lost one bet probably not two and i think I'll only get one more bet by checking turn and river at which point he'd probably have bet half the pot or something similar...

jimbling · 19-12-2006 1:58pm

ianmc38 wrote:

I dont think so. I've been playing aggressively postflop (3+ is generally quite aggro, though sometimes I run at 8+). Weak lead looks strong. I think I lost one bet probably not two and i think I'll only get one more bet by checking turn and river at which point he'd probably have bet half the pot or something similar...

re-read my post and note the *
Thats exactly what I said. When I said your line was right I meant leading. I did say it was two weak and you made it look like a trap.
For the exact same reasons the check call on the turn looks too strong. As does a check raise.

Don't forget, there's also a high chance that he would have checked checked and not bet at all. Leading relatively strongly was the ideal way to trap in this scenario.

AmarilloFats · 19-12-2006 2:45pm

Normally I like leading turn 2/3 pot and again 2/3 river..
BUT
.....
are you really looking to give him an opportuity to try and steal it from you??
When you say he has taken pots from you before has he bet when checked to or raised you??
I can't remember the last time I went for a river check raise.
Not sure this is the spot!?

5/10 Turn Line Please

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