KK oop, whats the move?

jimbling

won a ticket into the $300 big deal (pokerroom) on sunday. Played some relatively decent poker and was up around the top 20/30 for most of the tourney.
when we got up around the bubble, I was one of the fish playing it ultra tight. (I know I shouldn't have been, but to be honest I really wanted to get to the money - very big tournament by my standards)

I had lost a hand or two and was down to about 9k. blinds 500/1k. we were at 31 players for an eternity (payed 30 - with $630 bottom prize) and by the time we broke through the barrier I was down to 4,900. I was lucky enough to double up with 88 Vs AQ in the very next hand.
I was back to my usual style and hit a few cards . Was up to 3rd (20 left) when the following hand occured.

Villain is in mp, and is chip leader by a long way. He has 85k. He is an aggressive player, and made his chips by being ultra aggressive around the bubble. He also won a big pot recently when his AK outdrew an all in 55.

I have 36k.
Blinds are 1/2k.
I get KK in the BB.
Villain raises to 5k. folded to me.
I really want to get some chips here, I want a shot at the 16k first prize.

so whats the play?

Jaden

Fold.

Re-raise here if you think he will jam it all-in preflop.

Smooth calling and betting out big on a non-A flop would be my line - but it depends on the Villan. If he's aggressive enough, I'd check-raise the flop, and aim to get all my chips in on a board with no A.

What's the Villan's raising range here? 2.5 x BB seems a bit weak to me.

Hectorjelly

I would probably just reraise preflop and hope he has something he can go to war with. If the stacks were shallower I might just call preflop. The most dangerous yet very profitable line would be cold call preflop than check call the flop and cr the turn all in. This is only worth doing if the guy is aggro to the point of retardation. If the guy isnt that aggro but always cb then cold call preflop and chk raise all in on the flop btw hope the flop has no ace because you cant fold!

Flat calling here with AA or KK is absolutely horrible in terms of metagame and your image.

Silver-Tiger

I raise to 12-13k and hope villain thinks your at it and thinks you will fold if he pushes.
If he calls i get it in on a non Ace , non 9,10,js flop.
I very rarely smooth call at this stage of the game,
Maybe earlier where the stacks are deep enough that we dont have to get the money in on every flop and can play the hand out!!!

jimbling

Jaden wrote:

Fold.

Re-raise here if you think he will jam it all-in preflop.

Smooth calling and betting out big on a non-A flop would be my line - but it depends on the Villan. If he's aggressive enough, I'd check-raise the flop, and aim to get all my chips in on a board with no A.

What's the Villan's raising range here? 2.5 x BB seems a bit weak to me.

I think his raising range is pretty wide. He has been playing quite a lot of hands, and raising pf most of them. But his calling range would be pretty narrow. With all the hands he has played, he has shown down very few.

cardshark202

Make it 15k and do not fold any flops if he just calls.

gocall01

IMO the 2.5 x BB bet can also mean strength looking for someone to re-rasie.
My first reaction was push preflop (guessing at a range of any Ace - mid kicker or pair).
If he has the Ace, you have few bullets to dodge if he calls, otherwise you are big favourite.

However, a smooth call hides your hand strength and a non Ace flop allows a check to the raiser (who will take the opportunity) and depending on flop texture you can re-raise/push.

jimbling

Hectorjelly wrote:

I would probably just reraise preflop and hope he has something he can go to war with. If the stacks were shallower I might just call preflop. The most dangerous yet very profitable line would be cold call preflop than check call the flop and cr the turn all in. This is only worth doing if the guy is aggro to the point of retardation. If the guy isnt that aggro but always cb then cold call preflop and chk raise all in on the flop btw hope the flop has no ace because you cant fold!

Flat calling here with AA or KK is absolutely horrible in terms of metagame and your image.

How much would you re-raise?

Can you explain a bit further why you think a flat call is so horrible in terms of metagame and image?

ianmc38

Easy peasy reraise preflop. I'd make it 15-18k.

Jaden

Raising to 15K pre-flop pretty much commits you to the hand - and if he has any brain at all he'll see this. In his position, assuming this is a AQ/J or PP raise, I'd fold to a re-raise, and you've said that you want chips, so this isn't optimal.

Smooth calling and checking the flop is a good idea, but carries risk. Where are you with an A on the flop? With 31K left behind, it might be enough to push him off a weak(er) A.

A non-A fop is perfect, and check raise either the flop or turn.

If he has a PP that hit's it's set on the flop, or AA, so be it.

Imposter

I'm raising to about 12k and all-in on any flop if he just calls. If he raises you are obviously all-in preflop.

jimbling

The villain is by no means a muppet. He is very aggressive, but in all the hands I've seen him play he has shown down very very few of them. He either knocks people off or gets away quickly.
This made the decision difficult as I am afraid he'll be folding anything but QQ+ especially due to my tightish table image.

RacingSilver

Definitely reraise pre-flop.
If he has a medium pair, he might decide to either call or go all-in whereas he might shut down with these hands if there are any high cards on the flop.
If he doesn't have a pair (say AK,AQ,AJ, etc), then if he doesn't get help on the flop you might not get any action from him either.
So pump it up pre-flop when he still has a chance to hit and take your stack.

jimbling

I re-raised to 12k. I didnt want to make the call too difficult and ideally I wanted him to come over the top.
If he raises Im calling. and if he calls I am pushing to almost any flop
He flat called.
Flop: AhQh8h :eek:
25k in pot. I have 24k left. how do you handle this?




ps: I do not have the Kh

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

cardshark202

Don't check fold, I check call an all in/bet the turn for value.

ianmc38

jimbling wrote:

He flat called.
Flop: AhQh8h :eek:
25k in pot. I have 24k left. how do you handle this?
ps: I do not have the Kh

I make like the Olsen twins, shove my hand down my throat and puke my dinner all over the keyboard.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

jimbling

cardshark202 wrote:

Don't check fold, I check call an all in/bet the turn for value.

not quite sure where the value is

jimbling

LuckyLloyd wrote:

We still have a playable stack behind because we didn't re - raise enough pre - flop.

What do you think it should have been raised too... and why do you think it would have made a difference?

BigCityBanker

cardshark202 wrote:

Don't check fold, I check call an all in/bet the turn for value.

A poor line imo.

jimbling

by the way, cardshark... lol... just remembered i met you at a table on sat morning. Man i was still pissed for sure. Had woken up in a beer soaked chair at some party about an hour before that, bought a roll on the way home and decided it would be a fantastic idea to play some 1/2 while I eat
Actually luckboxed my way up to about 600 before giving 400 of it away with KK Vs AA - not a hand you'll fold when you're in that condition.

did I give you some chips?

ianmc38

I dont call an all-in here that's for sure. Bit of a pickle. That's why I raise more preflop. Villain is getting almost 3-1 to call preflop when you raise to 12k. Essentially it has the same effect as the minraise.

I probably check fold now on that flop but alot of it will be read dependent.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

RacingSilver

Well, I would never check-call here as CardShark suggests although I do see a certain advantage in it (especially against a good player)
i.e. my opponent will realise that if I have an Ace here, then I have to bet it as I cannot allow him to make an easy flush. So, if I check then he will 'know' that I don't have an Ace, and that I will find it very hard to call his all-in bet. So he will definitely bet regardless of what he has.
So that is a reason for check/calling. However, there is just too high a chance he has an ace so this play would be my last choice.

I could go all-in hoping to convince him that I have a bigger kicker than he has (that is if he has an ace too). If he has something like A9 it might put him under enough pressure to fold. Maybe, maybe not.
Check-folding is probably my most likely inclination on this hand.

cardshark202

You only have a psb left, you really can't fold here, so you should take the line where an aggressive player is most likely to try bluff you. This is a horrible spot but I would still call all in. Let me retract my previous statement about value betting KK here, there is probably no value in that.

Imposter

LuckyLloyd wrote:

We still have a playable stack behind because we didn't re - raise enough pre - flop.

If you raise anymore you are definitely pot commiting yourself.

This is the worst possible flop if you don't have the Kh.

This is true though. I think you have to push still. Otherwise you will be pushed off your hand way too often when ahead. You have to have a very narrow range for your opponent to even think about check folding this imo.

cardshark202

btw Jimbling, you didn't give me any chips. I ran insanely bad for the first hour of that session, but I got it all back against one of the guys at our table after I found him on a few other tables, I played on all of them. He was very aggressive but was a total lagtard threebetting far too much and raising way too much. He could still be a winner though cos it seemed that most players were too scared to play back at him.
I think you got unlucky a few times on my table though you were probably playing a little on the loose side lol.

jimbling

ianmc38 wrote:

I dont call an all-in here that's for sure. Bit of a pickle. That's why I raise more preflop. Villain is getting almost 3-1 to call preflop when you raise to 12k. Essentially it has the same effect as the minraise.

I probably check fold now on that flop but alot of it will be read dependent.

yes.. and thats what I'm having trouble over. I am still undecided.
What do you raise too that best suits our current needs?

15k will not change the odds a huge amount. Any more than that and I am blatantly telling him I am committed. he then gets to make a relatively easy decision to either fold or push. I think his range for pushing/calling push here is very narrow in that situation.


I have been thinking about HJ's "risky" suggestion and I think that may have been the good line in this case. Completely hides my hand. I can play any non-ace board in check call, crai manner.
Any I can get away from any A or otherwise risky board easily enough.


I check-folded by the way. it hurt bad, but I just couldn't call on that flop.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

jimbling

cardshark202 wrote:

btw Jimbling, you didn't give me any chips. I ran insanely bad for the first hour of that session, but I got it all back against one of the guys at our table after I found him on a few other tables, I played on all of them. He was very aggressive but was a total lagtard threebetting far too much and raising way too much. He could still be a winner though cos it seemed that most players were too scared to play back at him.
I think you got unlucky a few times on my table though you were probably playing a little on the loose side lol.

lol... ya, i can imagine so. Which guy was that at the table? There was one player that had about 590 when I got there. I have never seen a player give chips away so fast, most of them to me , on absolute crap.
He lost the whole lot and had bought back in when you arrived. (that was in the space of about 1/2 hour).
Can't recall his name, but he was sitting directly opposite your seat... seat 1 I think.

Rnger

sorry for digging this up again but i was waiting for a response from a particular poster

Hectorjelly wrote:

Flat calling here with AA or KK is absolutely horrible in terms of metagame and your image.

jimbling asked what you meant by this, be polite and answer the man! I've never heard the word metagame used in terms of poker before, or used anywhere else really. Are you reffering to your ability to steal in later hands? do you think its important to maintain an image of tight/solid at this end of the tourney?

ianmc38

Metagame is like 2nd and 3rd level thinking that exists between players who play regularly together or at least that's what I interpretted it as...

jimbling

in laymans terms its the i know that you know that i know that you know game.... lots of fun.

I was looking for an answer to why HJ thought flat calling would have such a negative effect on the metagame in question though.

Hectorjelly

The two most important tactics to use in the late stages of an mtt are raising and reraings. Raising to take down the blinds and reraising to take down peoples steal attempts and the blinds. Thats all the late stages of an mtt are about really. For these tactics to work monsters have to be a large part of your range. If a player at the table is playing and you know often he flat calls with AA/KK then all of a sudden he becomes very easy to play against because when he reraises you can take them out of his range. Trying to get too tricky with your good hands often makes it very hard to bluff.

The whole secret to raising and reraising, is that allthough both your opponents and you know that sometimes you will be totally bluffing, you create a situation where it is unprofitable for them to do anything other than fold because there is a chance you have a monster. Ie you raise on the button to 3 blinds. A guy on the BB has around 15 blinds, any reraise he makes pot commits him. If he has a hand like A2 he is in a real bind, because allthough he probably has the best hand folding is probably best because he will have to commit 15blinds to the hand, and if he gets called he is definitely beaten. Its the same with reraising, the best times to do it are when you threaten a much larger stack because the player realises that he is going to have to commit all of his chips to find out whether his hand is good or not. Now in both these scenarios if you are a player who will often limp with AA or flat call a raise with KK your range is now much weaker and your opponents can push a much wider range for value.

jimbling

Hectorjelly wrote:

The two most important tactics to use in the late stages of an mtt are raising and reraings. Raising to take down the blinds and reraising to take down peoples steal attempts and the blinds. Thats all the late stages of an mtt are about really. For these tactics to work monsters have to be a large part of your range. If a player at the table is playing and you know often he flat calls with AA/KK then all of a sudden he becomes very easy to play against because when he reraises you can take them out of his range. Trying to get too tricky with your good hands often makes it very hard to bluff.

The whole secret to raising and reraising, is that allthough both your opponents and you know that sometimes you will be totally bluffing, you create a situation where it is unprofitable for them to do anything other than fold because there is a chance you have a monster. Ie you raise on the button to 3 blinds. A guy on the BB has around 15 blinds, any reraise he makes pot commits him. If he has a hand like A2 he is in a real bind, because allthough he probably has the best hand folding is probably best because he will have to commit 15blinds to the hand, and if he gets called he is definitely beaten. Its the same with reraising, the best times to do it are when you threaten a much larger stack because the player realises that he is going to have to commit all of his chips to find out whether his hand is good or not. Now in both these scenarios if you are a player who will often limp with AA or flat call a raise with KK your range is now much weaker and your opponents can push a much wider range for value.

good explanation. ty.