NTL - is this legal?

Yakuza

I just had a read of my folks' new NTL bill (I'll be getting one soon) and apparently, from next April, they will slap on €2 extra per bill if you don't sign a DD mandate to pay up.

Surely this is discriminatory against customers who don't have bank accounts? I pay by online banking, but I just object to the principle of them taking the money out of my account at a time of their choosing.

If they were to change it to, say, a €2 discount for paying by DD, then I'd be a bit happier about it, but I think it's extortionate.

MackQ

If enough customers ring them up and tell them that they are going to move to Sky in protest against this charge then they will back-track.

admiralofthefleet

yeah, but since when was ringing ntl to complain about something easy

jor el

Are you sure it's not a €2 charge if you don't pay the bill on time? I think there's going to be something about this on The Last Word now on Today FM. Matt Cooper mentioned NTL and direct debits at the end of Tony Fenton's show, so it might be worth a listen.

Yakuza

It's just about to start now: 17:23

Aquos76

jor el wrote:

Are you sure it's not a €2 charge if you don't pay the bill on time? I think there's going to be something about this on The Last Word now on Today FM. Matt Cooper mentioned NTL and direct debits at the end of Tony Fenton's show, so it might be worth a listen.

Nope, he is right, its €2 for not paying by DD and its €7 for a late payment. They now expect you to pay 14 days after billing date. I am expecting a bill in the door now and their bills usally print off on the 7th of the month, so I guess I only have 3 days left to pay a bill which I have not received yet and also for a service which I pay for in advance.

What a Joke of a company. The lines were well and truely hotting up on the Joe Duffy show this afternoon about this topic, as was the DeiseAM show on WLRFM this morning.

jor el

Just listened to it too, seems that's exactly what they are doing and that it's legal for them to do it. I'm sure nothing will be done about it anyway, NTL seem to have inherited Chorus' wonderful customer service dept judging by what Matt Cooper is saying.

is_that_so

Chorus offer a €2 "discount" for monthly DDs which may explain the NTL move. DD can also be at a time of your choosing.

Yakuza

is_that_so wrote:

Chorus offer a €2 "discount" for monthly DDs which may explain the NTL move. DD can also be at a time of your choosing.

If they did something like that, I guess it would be ok - i.e. you knew that they were going to take the money out on the first of every other month. It's when you don't know exactly when they're going to take the cash, and making sure there's enough cash there to cover it.

As a rule, I keep f*ck all cash in my current account as it earns bubkiss interest.

While I will probably get used to it, I still maintain (as did the woman on TodayFM) that discriminates against a section of society that don't have access to bank accounts.

It is, however, the thin end of the wedge; watch for €ircon, Bord Gáis, ESB all jumping on this bandwagon soon enough. Once they see one sector getting away with it, it'll be a case of "me too" :mad:

mcaul

NTL & Chorus are now the same company.


Instead of complaining simply switch to SKY - bigger choice of channels & slightly cheaper. Also first class cust service op.

Or go for SKY Free - about €350 installation and no further charges ever after - has all BBCs ITVs & Film 4 and 4Extra along with the usual load of free crap stations. - But enough choice for mist people and no monthly charges ever!! - Any satellite installer can provide it to you.

is_that_so

Yakuza wrote:

If they did something like that, I guess it would be ok - i.e. you knew that they were going to take the money out on the first of every other month. It's when you don't know exactly when they're going to take the cash, and making sure there's enough cash there to cover it.

Exactly. This was my problem as well with Chorus and I rang them to move the date from the middle of the month. They were fine about it, although my first bill after that was a little higher on account of them moving it forward 12 days. So I had to pay 1.5 months and then the normal rate each month after that. IIRC it comes out within 4 days or so.

jimmycrackcorm

€2 is a small price to pay to cover the manual administration costs and I think it is fair. I don't understand why people would be bothered by having to go through all the effort and hassle either of paying the bill instead of having it done automatically.

jhegarty

jimmycrackcorm wrote:

€2 is a small price to pay to cover the manual administration costs and I think it is fair. I don't understand why people would be bothered by having to go through all the effort and hassle either of paying the bill instead of having it done automatically.

i take it you never tried to cancel an ntl account....

i wasn't on dd, so when they refused to cancel my account I just said , its cancelled now see you in court if you want...

Yakuza

jimmycrackcorm wrote:

€2 is a small price to pay to cover the manual administration costs and I think it is fair. I don't understand why people would be bothered by having to go through all the effort and hassle either of paying the bill instead of having it done automatically.

Any admin costs should be covered by the €21.50 they are now charging per month (and they lamely attribute the latest rise to "the rising costs of providing the NTL "service"). For me, there is virtually no effort in paying the bill - click, click, tappety tap, Bob's yer uncle. The money leaves my account, and ends up in theirs, same as if it was DD'd out, but the timing is down to me.

As I said earlier, it won't be much hassle for me, but will for several thousand of their customers (yes, I pulled that figure out of my ass).

@mcaul, I will be exploring my options once my Digital contract runs out in June.

Ryaller

MackQ wrote:

If enough customers ring them up and tell them that they are going to move to Sky in protest against this charge then they will back-track.

This made me laugh! I take it you haven't tried ringing NTL for anything lately?

mcaul wrote:

Instead of complaining simply switch to SKY - bigger choice of channels & slightly cheaper. Also first class cust service op.

Unfortunately, for those of us living in rented accomodation, Sky isn't an option. Otherwise I would have dumped NTL's sorry ass a long time ago.

jhegarty wrote:

i wasn't on dd, so when they refused to cancel my account I just said , its cancelled now see you in court if you want...

I've just done the same thing after being consistently ignored by them for over a month.

twanda

I was listening to that Joe Duffy radio show on Monday - an unbelievable amount of people were ringing up to say that it is IMPOSSIBLE to get through to their support department, and when they finally did get through, the customer service agents - although very nice- were totally frustrated and were unable to help with peoples queries. It's apparantly a faceless company and one that apparantly makes itself uber-difficult to reach.

One guy complained that he rang up to cancel his mothers subscription because she had died, and the girl on the phone kept telling him that she needed the 'account-holder' to contact them - he tried telling her that his mother was dead and so obviously she couldn't contact them, but no joy. The NTL service is still running in his mothers house..

BreadBoard

Well I for one will be leaving NTL as of 2007. Not impressed with this at all. I got the bill today dated the 7th of Dec, "Bill must be paid by 21st of Dec." They're taken the piss.

Going to go to SKY for the telly.

Cabaal

twanda wrote:

One guy complained that he rang up to cancel his mothers subscription because she had died, and the girl on the phone kept telling him that she needed the 'account-holder' to contact them - he tried telling her that his mother was dead and so obviously she couldn't contact them, but no joy. The NTL service is still running in his mothers house..

depending on if there's a contract involved he might have to supply a death cert in order to cancel the service, this is normal with some companys

Sarsfield

BreadBoard wrote:

I got the bill today dated the 7th of Dec, "Bill must be paid by 21st of Dec." They're taken the piss.

I'm in exactly the same position. I will NOT pay the late charge without kicking up a big fuss. Including ODCA, Joe Duffy or anyone else who'll listen or broadcast the problem.

Sounds like a lot of people are getting their bill just in advance of the pay date. A conspiracy theorist might draw conclusions!

BreadBoard

Sarsfield wrote:

I'm in exactly the same position. I will NOT pay the late charge without kicking up a big fuss. Including ODCA, Joe Duffy or anyone else who'll listen or broadcast the problem.

Sounds like a lot of people are getting their bill just in advance of the pay date. A conspiracy theorist might draw conclusions!

Ahh I'm sick of them...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=52526235#post52526235

Misticles

Sarsfield wrote:

I'm in exactly the same position. I will NOT pay the late charge without kicking up a big fuss. Including ODCA, Joe Duffy or anyone else who'll listen or broadcast the problem.

Sounds like a lot of people are getting their bill just in advance of the pay date. A conspiracy theorist might draw conclusions!

our bill came in this morning and has to be paid by tomorrow!!! like wtf!! then if u pay late its 7e, in the event of disconnection its 50e and they dont give a time frame of when they will be connected.... im trying to convince my mam to change to sky... same price, more channels, better customer service..

Sarsfield

So that's 3 of us who read 'Consumer Issues' within the space of half an hour who got our bills today to be paid tomorrow. What odds that there are many thousands of people in the same boat?

BreadBoard

I think I'll give comreg a call tomorrow and see what they have to say about it.

Telephone: + 353 1 8049668 or LoCall 1890 22 9668.
(Please note: this phone line is attended between 9:30 am and 4:30 pm Monday to Friday.)

dub45

jimmycrackcorm wrote:

€2 is a small price to pay to cover the manual administration costs and I think it is fair. I don't understand why people would be bothered by having to go through all the effort and hassle either of paying the bill instead of having it done automatically.

Direct debits are a threat to your financial health - you give a company access to your bank account and they can do what they bloody well like. Suppose you disagree with a bill and want to dispute it do you think the company are going to hold off on the direct debit and as many people are pointing out it is incredibly difficult to contact ntl never mind get them to do anything.

And while they are charging customers 7 euros for being late with payment there is no comeback whatsoever when they do not provide a service. Its appalling that the consumer can be treated this way.

tintin67

Just received NTL bill dated 7th December today, 21st December, together with notice that late payment charge will apply after 14 days ie. today. The back of the bill states that you should allow 4-5 WORKING days for payment to clear to your account, so it seems to be impossible to avoid the late payment fee even if I pay the minute I get the bill. And as it is the Christmas period, 4-5 WORKING days means payment will probably not be received until January whatever I do. From memory, my bill normally arrives just a day or 2 before the final payment date anyway so will I get hit with a guaranteed late payment fee every couple of months? Spent half an hour hanging on line to NTL before giving up. I'd love to get a legal view on this, but I imagine they haven't got a cat in hell's chance of this charge holding up in court. Nobody who is hit with this fee should pay it and ON NO ACCOUNT sign up to direct debit with NTL.

Noelie

I got my dad reconnect to NTL after a few years of free viewing, sorted out a DD to be taken every 2 months and though everything would be fine. untill they took out the full years subscription in one go, and sent a invoice about a week later. took two months to get a refund. So i'm not too eager to set up a DD for my account.

okidoki987

"bigger choice of channels"

agreed

slightly cheaper.

I assume by that you mean for the
basic stations that NTL also have?

Nevyn

That is a complete farce no way that shower of 'tards are getting dd details,
so paying via 24 hour banking or via the postoffice is not good enough for them anymore.

is_that_so

dub45 wrote:

Direct debits are a threat to your financial health - you give a company access to your bank account and they can do what they bloody well like.

"You can cancel a DD and you should tell the company you set it up for that it has been cancelled" - said my bank. So you do have control over it. But judging by posts here NTL leave a lot to be desired.
I have been on Chorus digital for almost 6 years and have never had any payment problems. Puzzling that one half of the company seems to do things properly or at least in my experience.

surveys

Misticles wrote:

our bill came in this morning and has to be paid by tomorrow!!! like wtf!! then if u pay late its 7e, in the event of disconnection its 50e and they dont give a time frame of when they will be connected.... im trying to convince my mam to change to sky... same price, more channels, better customer service..

Not been my experience with Sky. ! A load of *????* Not setting up channels I paid for. Not giving help until I threatened to go elsewhere. Standard email replies with no 'answers' and not replying at all until I had re-sent the same email 3 or 4 times. ! Not paying my friend who introduced me through 'introduce a friend'. Put on hold for 'hours'. ! etc.etc. A total disgrace. !

dub45

is_that_so wrote:

"You can cancel a DD and you should tell the company you set it up for that it has been cancelled" - said my bank. So you do have control over it. But judging by posts here NTL leave a lot to be desired.
I have been on Chorus digital for almost 6 years and have never had any payment problems. Puzzling that one half of the company seems to do things properly or at least in my experience.

Being able to cancel a direct debit does not stop companies hitting your account with amounts which may be wrong - then try and get a refund from them. Companies now are tending not to give refunds but to give credit on the next bill which means you may be without the money for a long period. (Ask anyone who had the delights of dealing with Esat/Bt and their abuse of the direct debit system over long periods).

Many companies conveniently ignore the 14 day minimum notice periods before hitting accounts and now they have a new system which reduces the notice period to 7 days. (the notice period is not defined in the direct debit code.)

Companies never warn you in advance of penalty charges if the direct debit is not met. Have you ever seen any of those nice leaflets encouraging people to sign up for direct debits which warn of the penalty charges from both company and bank if the direct debit is not met. It is not unknown either for a company to recreate the direct debit after it has been cancelled. Also there is no central authority to complain to about the abuse of the direct debit system by a company.

Have you ever seen a copy of the direct debit code of practise in any bank branch?

dub45

surveys wrote:

Not been my experience with Sky. ! A load of *????* Not setting up channels I paid for. Not giving help until I threatened to go elsewhere. Standard email replies with no 'answers' and not replying at all until I had re-sent the same email 3 or 4 times. ! Not paying my friend who introduced me through 'introduce a friend'. Put on hold for 'hours'. ! etc.etc. A total disgrace. !

You should assemble a dossier for Rubert Murdoch!:)

Safrole

I don't think people realise that Sky's non direct debit 'invoice' fee is actually five euro - and the fact that you can't get the service without going direct debit.

That said they do offer a much better service - any time I've called them they have been quite helpful, and I got through to a talking person in less than five minutes, any time of day.

NTL have a long, long history of being an incredibly bad managed company, from the top level down. How they are still in business in Ireland is beyond me, they have always had cash flow issues - which is where this debate comes in. NTL have been seen as the bill you can get away without paying, I know of students who ring them every few months, give a false name and say they have just moved into the apartment or house - NTL then clear the old bill, send it to credit control and issue a nice new clean account to the fictional name.

Other stories involve people not paying their bill for over a year and still getting service, or people getting cut off but still having the channels.

Their call centres are understaffed, hence the problems of getting through to someone. I'm not sure whether it’s a headcount issue (i.e. they won’t approve further headcount to cope with the call queues) or a finding staff issue - most people don't want to work for them, you would earn more working in a restaurant in most cases. This includes their credit controllers, who are based in a call centre also. Vicious cycle mucho.

It's legal for them to charge the invoice fee, it's also legal for them to charge late payment, but last time I checked if NTL change the contract terms you have an opt out and can cancel any further subscription even if you are contracted for a year etc.

MOH

They lost my account when I moved house. I didn't realise because I had NTL in the new place for a couple of months, assumed they'd transferred my account OK. Then one day they cut me off.

I rang them, got through OK, and the guy on the phone was very friendly and helpful. But I had no account number because I threw out all my old bills when I moved. They couldn't find any record of me in their system at my old or new address.

He said if I paid the outstanding debt (which was about 100 quid more than I reckoned I owed) they'd reconnect me. But unless I could prove (how?) that I'd requested a transfer of my account from my old address, there would also be a 50 euro 'first time connection' fee. He ended by suggesting I go and have a really good look for an old bill with my account number.

I would happily have paid what I owed them, but wasn't getting associated with the massive debt on the account, or paying the 50 euro connection charge. So I hung up, rang Sky, never looked back.

Then started getting hassled by NTL a month later for return of a non-existent set top box, when I never had digital. A snotty e-mail to their head of customer care eventually sorted that one.

It's no wonder they're losing money.

is_that_so

dub45 wrote:

Being able to cancel a direct debit does not stop companies hitting your account with amounts which may be wrong - then try and get a refund from them. Companies now are tending not to give refunds but to give credit on the next bill which means you may be without the money for a long period. (Ask anyone who had the delights of dealing with Esat/Bt and their abuse of the direct debit system over long periods).

Many companies conveniently ignore the 14 day minimum notice periods before hitting accounts and now they have a new system which reduces the notice period to 7 days. (the notice period is not defined in the direct debit code.)

Companies never warn you in advance of penalty charges if the direct debit is not met. Have you ever seen any of those nice leaflets encouraging people to sign up for direct debits which warn of the penalty charges from both company and bank if the direct debit is not met. It is not unknown either for a company to recreate the direct debit after it has been cancelled. Also there is no central authority to complain to about the abuse of the direct debit system by a company.

Have you ever seen a copy of the direct debit code of practise in any bank branch?

My sympathy to you. You've obviously hit the worst kind of problems. I remember working in the UK and ringing banks that were taking annual accounts out monthly to the blissful ignorance of their account holders. Ultimately however it is your account and you get to say what comes out of it. If the bank screws up then they have to refund you and you probably should move accounts. I myself have been a client of almost a dozen banking institutions over my lifetime .You might find this link useful in explaining the Direct Debit scheme.

AnnaStezia

NTL give you too short a time to pay your account.

Last year I think our bill arrived several days after it's official date of issue and we had about 5 days left to pay it. This was not unusual as similar tight payments periods applied in previous years. Imagine if you were away for a week ?

Anyway, we paid our bill immediately in 2005. However, many of our neighbours around Donnybrook and it's environs obviously did not ! I never saw so many disconections carried out over a two week period. Nice way to collect more fees for reconnection !!

Given the uniformly negative view of their customer service you would be mad to give this lot a mandate for DD. Imagine trying to rectify any problems ! No bloody thanks.....

dub45

is_that_so wrote:

My sympathy to you. You've obviously hit the worst kind of problems. I remember working in the UK and ringing banks that were taking annual accounts out monthly to the blissful ignorance of their account holders. Ultimately however it is your account and you get to say what comes out of it. If the bank screws up then they have to refund you and you probably should move accounts. I myself have been a client of almost a dozen banking institutions over my lifetime .You might find this link useful in explaining the Direct Debit scheme.

It may explain the schemes but sadly there are far too many defects in the scheme and people put up with the scheme far too readily. The most recent innovation of only requiring a company to give 7 days notice is pure lunacy in my opinion.

dub45

AnnaStezia wrote:

NTL give you too short a time to pay your account.

Last year I think our bill arrived several days after it's official date of issue and we had about 5 days left to pay it. This was not unusual as similar tight payments periods applied in previous years. Imagine if you were away for a week ?

Anyway, we paid our bill immediately in 2005. However, many of our neighbours around Donnybrook and it's environs obviously did not ! I never saw so many disconections carried out over a two week period. Nice way to collect more fees for reconnection !!

Given the uniformly negative view of their customer service you would be mad to give this lot a mandate for DD. Imagine trying to rectify any problems ! No bloody thanks.....

It is extraordinary how weighted in favour of a company things have become:

Companies can now apparently charge late fees without any justification for the amount involved.

They can 'force' people onto direct debits by fining them if they dont.

They can send bills out with any date they like on them and then say the customer did not pay in time.

There is no time to resove a disputed bill before a late fee becomes payable.

Increasingly it seems that companies are refusing to give refunds saying that they will be credited in the next bill etc etc.

And in turn a customer has no comeback when service is bad or non existent: when technicians dont keep appointments; and there is little point in saying leave the particular business as it may not suit the person to do so - this is particularly so in the case of NTL.

And your thought for today: if 10% of NTL customers are late with their payment even by a small interval how much will NTL make out of effectively doing nothing each billing period. In fact isn't there an incentive for NTL to minimise the notice interval as much as they can get away with?:eek:

parsi

AnnaStezia wrote:

NTL give you too short a time to pay your account.

Last year I think our bill arrived several days after it's official date of issue and we had about 5 days left to pay it. This was not unusual as similar tight payments periods applied in previous years. Imagine if you were away for a week ?

Last night on The Last Word they had yer woman from the National Consumer Agency who decried the whole additional charge thing. When the issue of late bills was raised _she_ said that NTL told her bills were issued X days in advance. Matt Cooper then asked her "so are you blaming An Post?" and she replied to te effect that she believed NTL so it could only be AN Post's fault ! The worst part is that they can date the bills for whatever date they want but now that most of that post isn't franked we - the consumer - can't prove when bills were sent.

parsi

is_that_so wrote:

I have been on Chorus digital for almost 6 years and have never had any payment problems. Puzzling that one half of the company seems to do things properly or at least in my experience.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha - you've yet to learn grasshopper. I spent months underpaying my Chorus bill (to compensate for days that the service was down) and they'd lash oon late payment charges. I'd write a cheque for the correct amount and I'd remind them of the time they fraudulently debited my credit card by amending a form after I signed it and then they'd shut up for a while. When Sky Digital came there was a fierce exodus in Cork from Chorus.

I've found Sky tobe ok - if you do have a dispute you can usually batter them into somesort of submission and when I last reconnected they gave me a free box and half-price for six months just by asking.

dub45

parsi wrote:

Last night on The Last Word they had yer woman from the National Consumer Agency who decried the whole additional charge thing. When the issue of late bills was raised _she_ said that NTL told her bills were issued X days in advance. Matt Cooper then asked her "so are you blaming An Post?" and she replied to te effect that she believed NTL so it could only be AN Post's fault ! The worst part is that they can date the bills for whatever date they want but now that most of that post isn't franked we - the consumer - can't prove when bills were sent.

I think in this case An Post are an easy blame - if you look at stuff from banks etc it is often dated up to 10 days before you actually receive it - even if all is above board it is easy to lose a few days - suppose a company does a billing run on a friday and the enveloping etc is done on the monday and the bulk of the stuff gets to An Post on the monday and it reaches the customer on the Tuesday thats 5 days gone already! Given the number of customers that NTL have (350,000 ?) I wonder how long a billing run actually takes from the time it starts to the time An Post actually receive the bills?