interesting site

Dyr

This was posted over in AH but im guessing a lot of people here wont have noticed it. So far it only shows the various murders in dublin on a map layout but maybe they'll include the more mundane stuff later. Interesting that most of the murders are caused by sharp pointy things or hitting/kicking which i'm guessing means getting stomped :eek:

http://www.dublincrime.com/#

john kavanagh

also mostly gangland related

bjj-fighter

Theres been one death on my road and that was by drive-by shooting

dlofnep

They all appear to be on the northside of Dublin.

gymrabbit

A woman was shot very close to where I live :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Dyr

john kavanagh wrote:

also mostly gangland related

38% per cent of murders from 2004 on were gangland related according to this, there was four within five minutes of my address and none of them are gang related

john kavanagh

AAAHHHHHH better work on my gun defence, could be me next!!!!!.....or maybe not

judomick

john kavanagh wrote:

AAAHHHHHH better work on my gun defence, could be me next!!!!!.....or maybe not

and see a psychiatrist your over 9 times more likey to kill yourself in Ireland than you are to be murdered!

Michael O Leary

judomick wrote:

and see a psychiatrist your over 9 times more likey to kill yourself in Ireland than you are to be murdered!

Mick,

Where have you been? I've missed you.

By the way, i'm drunk.

Michael O'Leary
www.iewto.org

judomick

Michael O Leary wrote:

Mick,

Where have you been? I've missed you.

By the way, i'm drunk.

Michael O'Leary
www.iewto.org

fighting hobbits

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBH2IaQ7u94

Roper

Two observations:
1)There are a lot of them on the Northside, and the Northside is a beautiful, friendly place. Come and visit sometime www.northsidetourism.ie. No seriously whats up with that?
2) Who decides whats gangland and whats just drug related etc? For example the Latvian woman killed in Swords is listed as not gang related but while the exact motives are as yet unclear, it wasn't a robbery or an assault gone wrong. So in other words basing any assumptions on the little bit of info contained on the map is bogey.

Still, interesting, but the "Where to find BJJ in Dublin" one is better.

Dragan

judomick wrote:

and see a psychiatrist your over 9 times more likey to kill yourself in Ireland than you are to be murdered!

I actaully have an issue with that kind of statement. Its not a case of if you see a shrink you are more likley to kill yourself….it's a case of your seeing a shrink BECAUSE you are more likely to kill yourself.

It's kind of like saying if you go to hospital you have a good chance of being sick.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Dragan wrote:

It's kind of like saying if you go to hospital you have a good chance of being sick.

I'd say if you go to hospital (these days) you've a good chance of getting sick.

Dyr

Roper wrote:

Two observations:
1)There are a lot of them on the Northside, and the Northside is a beautiful, friendly place. Come and visit sometime www.northsidetourism.ie. No seriously whats up with that?

i think its directly proportional to sales of Scarface on DVD to nortciders. "say hello to me little friend yecunchye" :eek:

gymrabbit

Bambi wrote:

i think its directly proportional to sales of Scarface on DVD to nortciders. "say hello to me little friend yecunchye" :eek:

Roper

Yes you're right! Ring Joe Duffy now! Get this violent filth off our shelves! The real cause of gangland crime is Tony Montana!:O

gymrabbit

Probably Grand Theft Audio computer game too.

Dave Joyce

Good to see some things never change!! Quick question for John Kavanagh, just wondering what was the point of the seminar last weekend John? Do you think there is a need for this type of training or were you hoping to convert some of those possibly unhealthy mindsets??

Secondly and I really believe that the following goes on all around the country. http://www.galwayadvertiser.ie/content/index.php?aid=3881

However, what I find disturbing is that someone I know who works in UCHG told my work colleague that this young man had his throat cut and both his legs and/or hands were tied after the encounter. Why isn't this common knowledge...well and I have heard this before, certain types of crimes are not publicised fully because they are not good for the tourist industry (prime example was the Aussie prison screw who got her face slashed a couple of years ago and the powers that be nearly had a sheet attack with all the adverse publicity OR the woman in a certain fast food outlet who was attacked in the toilets by 3 female teenagers). So please don't just accept what the authorities are saying without question. Once again I AM NOT saying this kind of thing is widespread BUT this sheet is going on and we are living in an increasingly violent society. This doesn't mean its becoming a lot more widespread BUT the levels of violence are definately increasing.

gymrabbit

Dave Joyce wrote:

This doesn't mean its becoming a lot more widespread BUT the levels of violence are definately increasing.

What's the relevance to Martial Arts and Self defense dave? Should more people start training in self-defense?

judomick

Dragan wrote:

I actaully have an issue with that kind of statement. Its not a case of if you see a shrink you are more likley to kill yourself….it's a case of your seeing a shrink BECAUSE you are more likely to kill yourself.

It's kind of like saying if you go to hospital you have a good chance of being sick.

so if you train MA are you more likely to be attacked?
or should we all stop training MA because were more likely to kill ouselves?

and if my previous post upsets anyone it was not my intention just giving comparison of chances of dying

like if you live in slovenia you have a 1 in a million chance of dying by Accidental suffocation and strangulation in bed

john kavanagh

Dave Joyce wrote:

Good to see some things never change!!

yes people still posting their opinions on a discussion forum - its crazy!

Dave Joyce wrote:

Quick question for John Kavanagh, just wondering what was the point of the seminar last weekend John? Do you think there is a need for this type of training or were you hoping to convert some of those possibly unhealthy mindsets??

well there was a couple of points

1. raise money for charity
2. get to meet some people off the boards
3. show people how sporting training methods can be used to train for common SD scenarios

i don't try to 'convert' anyone. i just offer my opinion - people are free to ignore.

Dave Joyce wrote:

BUT the levels of violence are definately increasing.

in the last 5, 10, 100 years? genuine question.


RIP Ronan Halloran - must be a hard time for his family.

Dave Joyce

yes people still posting their opinions on a discussion forum - its crazy!

Easy up there buddy, never said people shouldn't post their opinions but I was referring to some people burying their collective heads in the sand and thinking the only ones who get into trouble in this country were either looking for it and/or don't socialise in the "right" places.

common SD scenarios

, would these be common in this country??

in the last 5, 10, 100 years? genuine question

Well and this is just MHO, but like Geoff Thompson has often said I think society will always get worse (and like I've already said not "necessarily" more widespread) in certain time frames. But to answer your question directly most definately YES, in the last 5 years.

Just to add to the piece I posted here, last weekend at a big car boot sale which is held in Clara Co Offaly, there were over 30 arrests after a member of the travelling community tried to sell a blue movie to an underage teenager, to which his father took exception after he discovered what happened. A huge fight broke out and the cops must have been expecting trouble as they were on the scene very quickly in full riot gear. At one stage there were 3 individuals, one of whom had an iron bar, chasing a Garda. Anyway my point in posting this, (1) Not everything is reported in the media (this barely made local radio EVEN with 30 arrests and (2) these bastards could have knocked over/struck anyone in the crowd (don't think this would be an undesirable place to be on a Sunday afternoon), just a case of people can be in the wrong place at the wrong time

john kavanagh

Dave Joyce wrote:

never said people shouldn't post their opinions but I was referring to some people burying their collective heads in the sand

i'm just glad i dont live in a world where i'd see the need to seriously worry about gangs of people weilding machetes. people might see that as burying my head in the sand and ignoring impending danger but the alternative sounds like hell to me.

Dave Joyce wrote:

the only ones who get into trouble in this country were either looking for it and/or don't socialise in the "right" places.

not all but its true for the vast majority of cases.

Dave Joyce wrote:

would these be common in this country??

dealing with drunk aggressive people taking a swing at you is by far the most common act of physical violence in this country.

not saying it doesn't happen but random acts of violence with multiple attackers with weapons jumping on someone on some idle wed afternoon is rare compared with the more common drunk aggressive person on a sat night in a pub/club.

Dave Joyce wrote:

Well and this is just MHO, but like Geoff Thompson has often said I think society will always get worse

what a hellish view of the world. considering last century we had 2 world wars were millions were killed i'm glad i see us improving as a society. maybe i'm wrong but i'm glad i 'feel' that way, cant imagine living the other way.

Dave Joyce wrote:

last weekend at a big car boot sale which is held in Clara Co Offaly, there were over 30 arrests ....

do you really think it requires a lot of training to just get out of there when you see something like this erupting?

Colm_OReilly

Right, I can't take it any longer, I must confess.

Soon after JK declared Dublin safe for sport martial artists rebel insurgents starting murdering people. After months of this, JK was forced to pull HQ out of Dublin into Rathcoole, leaving only me and Andy Ryan delicately holding pockets on the outskirts of the city. Things are so bad that me and Andy have not had a chance to contact each other, with all our runners failing to deliver messages to each.

In what media reported as an admission that Irish MMA forces can no longer hold Dublin, it was announced that a british offensive, led by Cage Rage, would attempt to infiltrate Dublin from the North Quay's in May. Whether forces will hold out or not remains to be seen.

AFP.

Let me ask everyone this: Are you a victim of circumstance or in control of your life?

Dave Joyce

Firstly John, getting to meet people from the forum and obviously raising money for charity are excellant reasons for running ANY seminar but you still failed to answer my question when I asked you if you felt there was a need for this kind of training.

I'm tired after work today and coming down with 'flu but man when I read some of the stuff John and Colm have wrote I really wonder why you guys are so defensive when these type of topics come up. Its seems you guys either dismiss or dumb down (a bit childish actually Colm) anyones arguement as towards whether theres a violent society in this country. When people (and a lot more guys than me have given evidence/examples) try to convey this you go off on a tangent eg

do you really think it requires a lot of training to just get out of there when you see something like this erupting?

which I would agree with, I was merely highlighting events that ACTUALLY HAPPEN but you guys in head in the sand land seem to want to ignore.

dealing with drunk aggressive people taking a swing at you is by far the most common act of physical violence in this country.

Totally agree, but to suggest that this is the only violence thats out there (and I think I've shown just a few examples) is burying your head in the sand.

not saying it doesn't happen but random acts of violence with multiple attackers with weapons jumping on someone on some idle wed afternoon is rare compared with the more common drunk aggressive person on a sat night in a pub/club.

Very rare absolutely, but it does happen I've posted before what I witnessed outside my front door in the middle of the day and I'm sure there's more guys on here who've witnessed similar. Bear in mind there's not TOO many ordinary working class guys posting on this forum who live in sheet holes in various parts of the country.

Finally,

what a hellish view of the world. considering last century we had 2 world wars were millions were killed i'm glad i see us improving as a society. maybe i'm wrong but i'm glad i 'feel' that way, cant imagine living the other way.

, I'm talking about Irish society and if you really believe things have gotten anything but worse in say the last 5 years, then my friend you are dellusional. Some of the ills of society will (please God) never bother most of us, BUT you asked had it got worse and well thats pretty obvious but if you remember State Pathologist Dr Marie Cassidey when she spoke in (I think Trinity) saying the level of violence in this country had gotten FAR worse over the past few years.

Dragan

Wow, I want you all to know that I am actually staying back late in work purely to type this, how much of a looser am i?

Now then,

Let me ask everyone this: Are you a victim of circumstance or in control of your life?

Sadly Colm, many people do not like to admit that they are actually in complete control of there lives. Things are put down to luck, good or bad, circumstance etc. Choices lead to events. You make your choices, deal with the events. People say "if X occurs I will do Y." I say make X occur, then do A through Z.
With regard to the whole declining Ireland that we now apparently live in I can honestly say that I have seen both sides of it. I currently live in a nice affluent area of Dublin and am doing well for myself. In the past I have lived in the worst areas of Dublin. When I say I have seen the bad side of it I mean I have seen the bad side of it. I lived in one of the worst estates in this country and somehow, through some absolute miracle apparently, I never got one ounce of trouble there. I was not a local, I was not known and still no trouble. Surely I should have been mugged, beaten and shot but nope.
Clever choices kept me safe. I hate to be the one to point this out but Ireland is really not that bad, in my experience there is always a simple way to avoid trouble that does not involve a disarm, or an armbar, of a clever left right combo.
To those who train self defence and honestly believe that you are somehow taking control of what is an effectively uncontrollable situation I simple say enjoy what you are doing. SD training can be excellent fun but I also suggest you hope to **** and do everything you can to never need to use it.

john kavanagh

Dave Joyce wrote:

but you still failed to answer my question when I asked you if you felt there was a need for this kind of training.

apologies, i thought you already knew my opinion on this. if i may reword the question

q. do you think there is any point in training for SD specifically?

a. no, there's too many variables. here's an example of why i think its pointless training for SD

Then at the hotel a restless pre-fight night inspired Cabbage to take a wander down to the hotel’s lobby at 6am in search of a drink. As he left his room, someone snuck up behind him and clubbed him over the back of the head, leaving him unconscious in the corridor.

Cabbage was inspected by Cage Rage’s medical staff and was found to be suffering from concussion, so was forbidden to fight that night against Tengiz Tedoradze.

The two assailants were described as white with shaved heads aged about 55-70 years old. Police are inspecting CCTV footage and expect to have made arrests in a few days.

this is one of the toughest mma HW fighters (record) on the circuit who would smash anyone on this forum, regardless of rules, getting taken out by a 55-70yr old man!!

however having said that i do believe there are a number of other very good reasons to train MMA and the associated delivery systems. no.1 being they keep you in shape which may keep off a heartattack, a much more likely killer for irish males than groups of machete wielding maniacs.

Dave Joyce wrote:

John and Colm have wrote I really wonder why you guys are so defensive

ah jaysus enough with the 'defensive' cr@p. i'm just posting my opinions, something we're all entitled to do. there's nothing defensive in that. people are free to ignore.

Dave Joyce wrote:

Totally agree, but to suggest that this is the only violence thats out there (and I think I've shown just a few examples) is burying your head in the sand.

can you show me where i suggested that this is the ONLY type of violence out there?

Dave Joyce wrote:

Very rare absolutely

yes they are.

Dave Joyce wrote:

State Pathologist Dr Marie Cassidey when she spoke in (I think Trinity) saying the level of violence in this country had gotten FAR worse over the past few years.

how does someone accurately measure this, what criteria are used?

crokester

Dave your like a broken record you really are!!

Johns patient conversation with you has looked somewhat like this

John; Random acts of extreme violence in this country are rare

Dave; Yes but they still happen

John; I recognise that they happen but my point is that good life choices are far more effective at preventing you becoming a victim of them.

Dave; Yes but random acts of violence still happen. Stop putting your head in the sand John.

John; For the second time i realise that people can become the victims of violence with no prior warning etc, my point is about probabilities. We all live our lives according to probabilities, we make decisions and take risks based on these probabilities. We dont insure ourselves, for example, against invading aliens, (extreme point but you understand). It would not make good sense.

Dave; Eh yes but random acts of violence do occur, look at this newsclip i have.

John; Yes i realise that Dave. The points your failing to address is my points about what the real expected returns of endless fretting over and training for an unlikely event is likely to have for someone, especially given the liklyhood that confronted by the extreme examples your talking about training is likely to be ineffective. However in a one on one situation MMA based training will be most effective.

Dave; YOUR PUTTING YOUR HEAD IN THE SAND JOHN!! HERES ANOTHER NEWSPAPER CLIP FROM SOME RAG SHOWING THAT PEOPLE CAN BE INNOCENT VICTEMS OF MINDLESS VIOLENCE!!

Really why bother!

Colm_OReilly

my posts, as in all my dialect with people, is intended to make them feel better, mainly through laughter. I thought JK and SBGers would find that funny, as it was meant to be a parody on the Iraq invasion by the US.

Firstly, the paradigm through which I view the world is different to yours, so I'm trying to connect with you. Unfortunately, I'm not capable of doing that, and I apoligise.

As to whether society is getting worse, Pearse (being an anthropologist) would be able to answer on that but there's two thoughts. The ancient Greeks - who gave us most of the world's ideas - believed the golden age had passed and the world was in decline, as did the mesapotamians to me knowledge.

Current paradigms believe the world to be evolving, i.e. becoming better, but it's only a paradigm.

To quote The Shane "All empires crumble."

As to whether I'm defensive I will look at my posts to see if I am that way. I could say now that I'm not pushed if people don't see my point of view (as a matter of interest John and I do NOT agree with everything, but we have the opportunity to discuss outside the message boards). I understand that by writing this it's similiar to a kid who's a sore loser saying 'I don't care'.

Dragan,
If you (i.e. people) want to claim that circumstances dictate their lives then I'll accept that. Just don't come onto forums with should statements.

Tidings of comfort and joy, comfort and joy,
Colm

Dyr

crokester wrote:

Dave your like a broken record you really are!!

Johns patient conversation with you has looked somewhat like this

John; Random acts of extreme violence in this country are rare

Dave; Yes but they still happen

John; I recognise that they happen but my point is that good life choices are far more effective at preventing you becoming a victim of them.

Dave; Yes but random acts of violence still happen. Stop putting your head in the sand John.

John; For the second time i realise that people can become the victims of violence with no prior warning etc, my point is about probabilities. We all live our lives according to probabilities, we make decisions and take risks based on these probabilities. We dont insure ourselves, for example, against invading aliens, (extreme point but you understand). It would not make good sense.

Dave; Eh yes but random acts of violence do occur, look at this newsclip i have.

John; Yes i realise that Dave. The points your failing to address is my points about what the real expected returns of endless fretting over and training for an unlikely event is likely to have for someone, especially given the liklyhood that confronted by the extreme examples your talking about training is likely to be ineffective. However in a one on one situation MMA based training will be most effective.

Dave; YOUR PUTTING YOUR HEAD IN THE SAND JOHN!! HERES ANOTHER NEWSPAPER CLIP FROM SOME RAG SHOWING THAT PEOPLE CAN BE INNOCENT VICTEMS OF MINDLESS VIOLENCE!!

Really why bother!

Nice pom poms dude, not to sure about the ra ra skirt though :rolleyes:

yomchi

my posts, as in all my dialect with people, is intended to make them feel better

Dalai Lama O'Reilly

Colm_OReilly

Jon wrote:

Dalai Lama O'Reilly

Really I'm just amazed I can write that lucidly after 10 green diesels!

TwoKingMick

Colm_OReilly wrote:

my posts, as in all my dialect with people, is intended to make them feel better, mainly through laughter.

I got more of a David Brent feel from that particular line.

Roper

TwoKingMick wrote:

I got more of a David Brent feel from that particular line.

Ha! I was thinking that!:D

john kavanagh

TwoKingMick wrote:

I got more of a David Brent feel from that particular line.

lol ah good ol' mick and his quick wit - any return date set yet? being working on any new impressions??

TwoKingMick

I'm leaving Korea in about ten hours as it happens. So i'll be back in twelve weeks. I have loads of new impressions, but they're all of koreans, so only TKD students and me will find them funny.

gymrabbit

TwoKingMick wrote:

I'm leaving Korea in about ten hours as it happens. So i'll be back in twelve weeks. I have loads of new impressions, but they're all of koreans, so only TKD students and me will find them funny.

you cycling back?

TwoKingMick

I actually told some of my students that, and they fully believed me for about 45 minutes. I'm coming home via Vietnam, Cambodia, Thailand, Singapore, Hong Kong, San Fransisco and New York.

john kavanagh

ah good stuff, sounds like an excuse for a session

Dave Joyce

a. no, there's too many variables. here's an example of why i think its pointless training for SD

Wow, thats a very depressing view of society:) You could say the same thing about fighting in the ring/cage, a lot of variables even moreso in fact when you look at MMA and the need to be proficient in 3 ranges, you might even say its 3 times the variables.

this is one of the toughest mma HW fighters (record) on the circuit who would smash anyone on this forum, regardless of rules, getting taken out by a 55-70yr old man!!

Maybe his rep caught up with him.

ah jaysus enough with the 'defensive' cr@p. i'm just posting my opinions, something we're all entitled to do. there's nothing defensive in that. people are free to ignore.

Nothing crap about it mate. How come the vast majority of RBSD guys on this forum have all (including myself) said that MMA (with some additions) is ONE of the most realistic ways of training AND it seems to me that everyone is wasting their time in your opinion if their not training MMA. Even when some of the RBSD guys have acknowledged any shortcomings they perceive in their training and they attempt to address it, they are moreorless given the OPINION that there wasting their time unless its MMA. And yet we get comments like

q. do you think there is any point in training for SD specifically?

a. no, there's too many variables. here's an example of why i think its pointless training for SD

, which is why I get a little confused. The other reason I think you guys are defensive is because for guys who think like the above comment, you seem to really enjoy all the threads relating to street stuff and you run (which btw I think was a good idea) anti-grappling courses. I can't see RBSD, Combatives etc been a threat to the future of MMA but do you guys honestly think you're neglecting a certain niche in the market and have to offer the opinion that MMA training is far more realistic than RBSD etc.

can you show me where i suggested that this is the ONLY type of violence out there?

You didn't but you continually play down/ignore the other types of violence thats out there. I agree with you about avoiding the drunken scenarios, thats easy to do but take the case in Dundalk (?) where the guy tried to stop the gang from stealing his car and guess what they cut him with a MACHETE. Now I know some of you guys will say he shouldn't have confronted them but I would as you may have blown some amount of money on that car and if stolen it won't be sorted overnight, in fact it can take some time. Whatcha gonna do in the meantime if its your only source of transport.

how does someone accurately measure this, what criteria are used?

Ah Jaysus John, she was saying that in the past when a murder was committed the murderer just made their escape but now they are going to extreme and nasty lenghts to try to hide the crime eg burning bodies, cutting them up etc. which she actually said was a reflection of how bad society had gotten.

Colm, you're obviously far better educated than myself so I couldn't compete with your debating skills and big words. What I was merely pointing out was the contrast in the subjects on this forum you take so incredibley seriously and the ones you

my posts, as in all my dialect with people, is intended to make them feel better, mainly through laughter

attempt to make people feel better through belittl..sorry laughter

john kavanagh

dave our views are so different there's no point trying to explain myself - we'll never see eye to eye on this type of thing.
i'll just wish you a happy christmas and good luck in the new year

Musashi

I'd like to wish Dave a Happy Chrimbo as well!

I don't know his personal belief system, or John Kav.'s for that!

Sorry I missed both mens seminars in the same weekend, Daves' being the closer of the two! I had commitments needed meeting but I hope to train with both of ye in the next year.

I also hope to meet Quillo for a bit of template training and Dlofnep for a little Judo. New baby due in April, so we wil see how it goes!

In another point, my wife wanted to go shop late tonight (after 21:00) and there were raised voices outside. Seems the Christmas Spirits entered the neighbours early this year, with death threats being exchanged and one guy swinging his walking stick! (He was an older guy, as was his Oppo.)

I walked my wife to her car, avoided eye contact, and saw her away safely.
Once inside I dropped my Durattan cane and went back to being relaxed and minding our young son. RBSD is dealing with real situations, even if it never turns nasty! I've seen enough domestics turn bad to stop my wife leaving until I had a stick in hand. This was most likely overkill on my behalf, but no harm no foul, I had some verbal my way but that's ok. Prepare for the worst and accept the best, it all works out in the end, I hope!

I am not here waiting on a reprisal or a firebomb attack etc.
Just surfing the web, actually buying First Aid gear for mates at work. Be prepared but not paranoid seems to work for everyone!

Have a good Holiday lads, hope to see ye all online in the days to come, and maybe in person depending!

All the best!

Eric!

Dyr

Happy christmas mushashi, may santa bring you lots of expensive shiney blades and may you never have a need for them

Musashi

Bambi,
I bought a whole green ham for Chrimbo, and made it in Twain with a Cold Steel Voyager X2, made the job a good 'Un! But I really appreciate the sentiment Bambi!

You are prolly the first to acknowledge my hobby without condemning it! Cheers for that! If you ever have need of a good knife drop me a line, I will help you out! If Satan Claus brings me no new knives then I'm sure Evil-Bay will provide!

In the meantime know that I spent this year certifying in Airway management, AED, BLS, First Aid, Oxygen Therapy and this year coming I'll learn to be a First Responder. I much prefer that area of training..... to MA training, but I love to learn both! I am going for EMT this year, don't be shocked if you meet me at a ROT event!

Have a good year lads, hope I never have to meet ye in a Professional capacity! :eek:

Dave Joyce

Merry Christmas and a very Happy and successful New Year to John Kav, Musashi and even you Ush (though I'm still not certain I forgive you for the John Major comment in a previous thread:D ). Everyone else I wish you all the very best seasonal regards but thought I would do it officially in the related thread.

Forgot this in the original type, but Eric you should have a look at the public forum on the Sayoc site if you want to see some class knives hand made with all the spec, (I ain't that technical minded LOL), bit expensive but they're hand made and top quality. Not sure if its on the public site but see if you can find the tomahawk which I've seen for real and its unreal.

Dyr

Dave Joyce wrote:

Merry Christmas and a very Happy and successful New Year to John Kav, Musashi and even you Ush (though I'm still not certain I forgive you for the John Major comment in a previous thread:D )l.

I said he wasnt the worst british PM, thats hardly signing up for the fan club