% of SnG's?

PokerChild

Hi There!

Question.....

Only playing poker a short while and a wondering..... If you are playing SnG's alot. Mine being 18 seaters on Stars. at either 1/3/6 buyin (I'm still on me L plates!)

What percentage should you be "in the money" in? Lets take say 15 tournies over two days?

Alot of you seem real good and I was wondering if you win all your SnG's or do you have an average win %. Like 4 out of 5 etc In the money more so than 1st each time.

Like..what do you aim for if you are good?

Pairs are the work of the Devil btw.....

ArmaniJeanss

PokerChild wrote:

What percentage should you be "in the money" in?

do you have an average win %. Like 4 out of 5 etc In the money.

Like..what do you aim for if you are good?

ITM depends on how many places are paid. I play 9 seaters paying 1,2,3 so 33% is therefore the average ITM, so we aim above that.
Good players at a level will achieve 45% +, (maybe 50% + at lower levels) over a long period of time, anything higher is difficult.

Your specific example of 15games over 2 days is too small a sample for meaningful figures, both 0% and 100% would be possible over 15 games for any player.

willietherock

ArmaniJeanss wrote:

ITM depends on how many places are paid. I play 9 seaters paying 1,2,3 so 33% is therefore the average ITM, so we aim above that.
Good players at a level will achieve 45% +, (maybe 50% + at lower levels) over a long period of time, anything higher is difficult.

Your specific example of 15games over 2 days is too small a sample for meaningful figures, both 0% and 100% would be possible over 15 games for any player.

How realistic is 45% + ITM. I have my doubts tbh. You need to be running exceptionally well and winning your coin flips/ hitting flops to be nearly 50% ITM. 30% is definately achieveable.

ArmaniJeanss

willietherock wrote:

How realistic is 45% + ITM. I have my doubts tbh. You need to be running exceptionally well and winning your coin flips/ hitting flops to be nearly 50% ITM. 30% is definately achieveable.

Think you're confusing ITM and ROI willie, 30% ITM in 9seaters would be poor, below the average of 33%.
AJs.

gocall01

I began keeping records of this since I opened an account with PPP (Paddy Power Poker) back in the beginning of this year.
I have played plenty of SnG's on other sites so I decided to keep the records from the beginning on PPP.

I started out on the $10 9 seat tables and have worked up to a mixture of $20 & $25 9 seaters, soon to be at the $50 tables, fingers crossed.

When starting I set myself an aggressive target of:
1st - 15% of time.
2nd - 15% of time.
3rd - 20% of time.
Therefore ITM = 50% (aggressive I know but targets focus the mind).

I know the sample size is reasonably small at ~420 but here are the results so far:
1st = 10%
2nd = 16%
3rd = 23%
ITM = 49%

Sustainable? - not too sure, probably not, but the mind is focused and I don't play unless it is...

I know regular posters will say you need upwards of 2000 games to validate your percentages and trends.
My suggestion to you is decide on your targets and work towards them.
If you feel happier shooting for say 10%, 10%, 15% & ITM 35% (if 3 places are paid) then go for it and if you beat it you will be doing alright.

One thing from my stats to date which I can see I need to work on is increasing my 1st place finishes.
This stems from the fact that I am rarely chip leader when we hit the final 3.
Probably need to be more aggressive early on.

Anyway that's my 2 cents...
SnG's are a good place to cut your teeth IMO, you get good bang for your buck (quite a bit of playing time can be had).

Mellor

willietherock wrote:

How realistic is 45% + ITM. I have my doubts tbh. You need to be running exceptionally well and winning your coin flips/ hitting flops to be nearly 50% ITM. 30% is definately achieveable.

Considering that 9 nd 6 seats pay out 33% of the field. 30% would be a bad value for ITM. and you would be losing money if was spread over 1st, 2nd, and 3rd equally.

Mellor

gocall01 wrote:

When starting I set myself an aggressive target of:
1st - 15% of time.
2nd - 15% of time.
3rd - 20% of time.
Therefore ITM = 50% (aggressive I know but targets focus the mind).

Just wondering, why exactly did you plan on finishing 3rd more often than 1st or 2nd.

gocall01

Mellor wrote:

Just wondering, why exactly did you plan on finishing 3rd more often than 1st or 2nd.

Well I could have planned to be 1st = 100% of the time (actually doing it would be nice:D ).
I was just trying to be agressively realistic (now need to be more aggressive at the table).

As I say I set a target with only what memories I had from my previous results on other sites.
My primary target was ITM = 50% and then I just broke it down accordingly.
I don't plan to finish 2nd or 3rd in any SnG but I am a realist and that seemed as good a break down as any.

BTW, if I hit my % targets playing the same stakes all the time my calculations of my ROI would be ~30%.
Is this considered a respectable figure?

patmac

Should the target not be 36.3% to take in the 10% rake, I'll check my figures when I go home.

gocall01

patmac wrote:

Should the target not be 36.3% to take in the 10% rake, I'll check my figures when I go home.

Correct if I am wrong but in SnG's say a $20+$2, isn't the $20 for the prize pool and the $2 from each player the house's take?
You can just build this into your ROI calculation then.

For example, play 100 9 seater $20+$2 SnGs:
Total investment = $2200 ("investment", my Dad would laugh!)
Prize structure - 1st = $90; 2nd = $54; 3rd = $36.

$90 x 15 = $1350
$54 x 15 = $810
$36 x 20 = $720

Therefore total return = $2880

% ROI = ((Total Return - Total Investment)/Total Investment) x 100

Ah, maybe your 36.3% figure is the ITM % required???

Mellor

gocall01 wrote:

Well I could have planned to be 1st = 100% of the time (actually doing it would be nice:D ).
I was just trying to be agressively realistic (now need to be more aggressive at the table).

As I say I set a target with only what memories I had from my previous results on other sites.
My primary target was ITM = 50% and then I just broke it down accordingly.
I don't plan to finish 2nd or 3rd in any SnG but I am a realist and that seemed as good a break down as any.

Still not sure why you set your 3rd place higher than the rest. I suppose it just matched your playing style.
At six seat i'm targeting for 25% @ 1st, and 25% @ 2nd. Whats the best way to track your progress.

Flushdraw

willietherock wrote:

How realistic is 45% + ITM. I have my doubts tbh. You need to be running exceptionally well and winning your coin flips/ hitting flops to be nearly 50% ITM. 30% is definately achieveable.

45% ITM is quite achievable...I'm a little above that. My stats for the last 3 months in 9 seaters on a particular site are..

Total SnGs played = 527…….ITM (49.1%)

1st = 22.9% (121)
2nd = 16.1% (85)
3rd = 10.1% (53)
4th-9th = 50.9% (268)

PokerChild

Thanks for the replies. Some interesting stuff there. Looks like I'll have to make room on me desk for a calculator! As I mention I have L plates and been playing a for a few weeks (eh 3/4) Only got into this SnG thing a few nights ago. Cause of Stars. I seem to be ITM (I like that letter'age ) about 75% of the time. Today for example I played 6. ITM = 4

3rd
3rd
4th
1st


On One i got knocked out 5th by a bad beat. and the other at 14th due to JJ breaking my nuts with a J flop. Yesterday and the day before were much the same. Even managed to pull off 5th for 24$ in a 45 seater 6$ Game last night... though 45 seats is a lot of time and work. Luckily I am on sick for the last two days!

I think people are right though in that you need a few months or more worth of hand to get a good stats going so thats what I'll do on a spread sheet.

So far its 21 Games with 16 ITM only 3 * 1sts though

1/4/2/3/1/4/4/2/3/3/2/5/3/3/4/1 << Last one a few mins ago.

Again cheers for the food for thought and At least I can work off your %'s.

/Opens Excel.....

BobSloane

I play mostly SnGs too and just try to focus on winning. I'm running at 40% ITM but half of those are wins. I think if you're reasonably aggressive on the bubble and not silly taking on someone who has you covered with a dodgy hand OOP, getting ITM will take care of itself alot of the time.

That said I'm on the run from hell over the last 30 games. 2 lousy wins and have crashed out on the bubble repeatadly but i'll stick to my aggressive guns for a while yet. I've a lot to learn

willietherock

Flushdraw wrote:

45% ITM is quite achievable...I'm a little above that. My stats for the last 3 months in 9 seaters on a particular site are..

Total SnGs played = 527…….ITM (49.1%)

1st = 22.9% (121)
2nd = 16.1% (85)
3rd = 10.1% (53)
4th-9th = 50.9% (268)

Yes, looking at my results over circa 1000 games I'm running just over 40%, tbh it felt like I was running closer to 30%itm. Your 1st place % is v impressive. Do you have a general gameplan for stts?

Are people using software like pockertracker/sngpowertools with stts?Are these worth getting?

gocall01

willietherock wrote:

Yes, looking at my results over circa 1000 games I'm running just over 40%, tbh it felt like I was running closer to 30%itm. Your 1st place % is v impressive. Do you have a general gameplan for stts?

Are people using software like pockertracker/sngpowertools with stts?Are these worth getting?

Yes Flushdraw, your 1st place % is very very good in my opinion, something to aspire to.
Would also be interested in getting an insight to your STT gameplan if you are willing to share.
Personally, I believe my STT game is reasonably solid but need to be slightly more aggressive to improve my 1st place %.

Do you have your ROI % handy, bet that is impressive as well!

gocall01

Mellor wrote:

Still not sure why you set your 3rd place higher than the rest. I suppose it just matched your playing style.
At six seat i'm targeting for 25% @ 1st, and 25% @ 2nd. Whats the best way to track your progress.

My playing style at the moment is focused on getting to the money.
I guess that is why my 3rd place % is higher the 2nd & 1st.
I try to get ITM first and then work on 1st place.
Maybe a refocus is required, 1st or bust, this could have a very positive or negative effect on my ROI however.

As for tracking my progress I use Excel to record my placings, ITM and ROI.
I have heard there is a tool available from the 2+2 website but I have not gone looking for it as I am happy enough with my tracking setup.

sikes

you results for ITM should look like something like this if you are playing to maximise your ROI

1st - 45%
2nd - 35%
3rd - 20%

This assumes you are relativley good for your level at heads up.

The reason for this is that you shouldn't aim for ITM but to maximise your profit. You do this by getting first and to a lesser extent 2nd. 3rd is irrelevant.

You should therefore find yourself, when short and approaching the bubble, busting out in fourth more often, because you are playing in order to build a stack to aim for the top 2 places. Once you get to the top two, your edge heads up should result in more wins.

If you find this is not the case, try 1x1 HU matches. Most, if not all, sites have these.

Flushdraw stats are on the money.

Iago

I finish 4th more often than any other position except 2nd.

It goes like this for me

4th
2nd
1st
3rd
6th

I put it down to my aggresive play on the bubble where I'm looking to get enough chips to challenge for 1st rather than limp into 3rd.

My ITM over my last 4K STTS ($20,$30 level) is around 42%, unfortunately in recent times my split has gone from 40/30/30 to closer to 33/35/32 which in terms of ROI isn't very good at all.

I've also only finished ITM in 5 of my lst 50 STTs which I'm putting down to a combination of variance and stupidity, with the emphasis on variance. Running these kind of numbers over anything less than 1K STTS at any particular level is pointless imho, there will be too many hot and cold streaks that will skew your results.

Flushdraw

In the first level or 2, blinds are low so theres not much point in bluffing and i dont do a lot of limping with mediocre hands. 90% of the time i play a hand, i come in with a raise or a reriase. It also doesnt hurt to play tightish and let 1 or 2 players get knocked out before looseni up your starting hand requirements.
I nearly always continuation bet whether i have the nuts or miss completely and i try to keep my bets the same size.
I play the button and cut-off very aggresively and raise almost every orbit,
If theres 3 or 4 limpers and i'm in late position i'll raise with any 2 cards.
I always put pressure on the short stacks and play super aggresive on the bubble when players are trying to hang on for the money. Punish any weak looking bet
Dont shy away from 50/50s especially if youre trying to win the SnG as opposed to just getting ITM.
When headsup, raise from every button so your opponent will be out of position in an inflated pot.
Dont be afraid to go allin with any Ace or King high when the blinds get big. Always put pressure on your opponent and force them to make tough decisions and be aggresive with a bigger stack.

I dont aim for an ITM finish, i play to win them all so my strategy might not suit everyone. I tend to bubble a lot but i stick to my guns and go for broke all the time

ROI% for last session is 69.2%..Buyin ($22,077) winnings ($37,360)

gocall01

Flushdraw wrote:

In the first level or 2, blinds are low so theres not much point in bluffing and i dont do a lot of limping with mediocre hands. 90% of the time i play a hand, i come in with a raise or a reriase. It also doesnt hurt to play tightish and let 1 or 2 players get knocked out before looseni up your starting hand requirements.
I nearly always continuation bet whether i have the nuts or miss completely and i try to keep my bets the same size.
I play the button and cut-off very aggresively and raise almost every orbit,
If theres 3 or 4 limpers and i'm in late position i'll raise with any 2 cards.
I always put pressure on the short stacks and play super aggresive on the bubble when players are trying to hang on for the money. Punish any weak looking bet
Dont shy away from 50/50s especially if youre trying to win the SnG as opposed to just getting ITM.
When headsup, raise from every button so your opponent will be out of position in an inflated pot.
Dont be afraid to go allin with any Ace or King high when the blinds get big. Always put pressure on your opponent and force them to make tough decisions and be aggresive with a bigger stack.

I dont aim for an ITM finish, i play to win them all so my strategy might not suit everyone. I tend to bubble a lot but i stick to my guns and go for broke all the time

ROI% for last session is 69.2%..Buyin ($22,077) winnings ($37,360)

Cheers Flushdraw.
And with those %s & that info I'm off home and going to lock myself away for the weekend.
More Aggression - Grrr!

RoundTower

sikes wrote:

you results for ITM should look like something like this if you are playing to maximise your ROI

1st - 45%
2nd - 35%
3rd - 20%

This assumes you are relativley good for your level at heads up.

The reason for this is that you shouldn't aim for ITM but to maximise your profit. You do this by getting first and to a lesser extent 2nd. 3rd is irrelevant.

You should therefore find yourself, when short and approaching the bubble, busting out in fourth more often, because you are playing in order to build a stack to aim for the top 2 places. Once you get to the top two, your edge heads up should result in more wins.

If you find this is not the case, try 1x1 HU matches. Most, if not all, sites have these.

Flushdraw stats are on the money.

I think you have it backwards. You should end up in 3rd more often than in 2nd. Making the money is twice as good as jumping from 3rd to 2nd. So you should try and make the money, and then try and make 1st place. 3rd is very much NOT irrelevant, generally for 3rd you will get almost half what you get for 1st.

In a regular tournament you would be right, you will frequently bust out near the bubble if you play to maximise your profit.

sikes

RoundTower wrote:

I think you have it backwards. You should end up in 3rd more often than in 2nd. Making the money is twice as good as jumping from 3rd to 2nd. So you should try and make the money, and then try and make 1st place. 3rd is very much NOT irrelevant, generally for 3rd you will get almost half what you get for 1st.

Yeah, third is clearly not irelevant its just the way my stats used to come out so i assumed i was right! Also the fact that you would often have a live one with a relatively big stack, and id want a stack at least 2/3 of his heads up, would also make me go a bit aggro around the bubble.

Place -- ROI
1st -> 350%
2nd -> 155%
3rd -> 80%
4th -> -100%

4-3 = 180% swing
3-2 = 75% swing
2-1 = 195% swing

In order to increase my 3rd places, and aim for the money, I know I'm going to drop my 1st place ranking. Im about to run out the door and have no idea about the effect of me limping into the money more will have on my 1st place finishes. any mathemagicians know what i should do to calculate something that might be interesting?

ArmaniJeanss

Sikes,
I've figures which are healthy enough, but definitely are symptomatic of someone who limps into the money, and thus has a reduced win-rate.

Over 135 $15 STTs 9seaters I was 18/21/30 for a decent 49% ITM but not a brilliant winrate.

And for 200 $20 9seaters I'm 27/35/40 for an ITM over 50% but a win-rate only marginally barely above Mr Joe Average. (decent ROI though),

I'm not sure where I can need to fix my game, whether the problem is bubble play, 3handed or h2h.

At some stage I'm going to trawl through these games to see for example whether the amount of chips I started the head-2-heads with means that I'm winning more or less games when I should. The bare figures above imply that my head-2-head is poor, yet my gut instinct is that I'm good at it.

AJs.